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Author Topic: We The Armed  (Read 13486 times)

oneshooter

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We The Armed
« on: November 05, 2008, 08:52:53 pm »
  We The Armed. Willing to defend ourselves and our families.
 But what about others? Defend a bank against a robber?  Help a stranger against a attacker?
 My question is what limits are there, not legal limits as they are codified and known. But what personal limits in the defence of others do YOU observe.

 We The Armed is a large responsibility, as all of us that carry know.

 Oneshooter
 Livin in Texas

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    FMJ

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 09:11:13 pm »
    I think it is best not to interfere.  My take on it is:  What if the "attacker" is really and undercover cop and the "victim" is a criminal?  I am sure you do not want to interfere with a police operation.

    And for a bank:  Would a single person with only a handgun have been able to stop a heist like North Hollywood in '97?  Mind you, those two guys were using "assault weapons" during the 10 year ban....FAIL.

    But please correct me if I am wrong, as I am always open to constructive criticism.
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 09:31:21 pm »
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    I am not going to stand by and watch.  I never have.  I never will.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
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    PrivateJoker

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 09:38:31 pm »
    We had a saying in the Marines: "I'd rather be a private in the brig than a (corporal, sergeant, etc.) in a body bag."

    I have a set of morals that I live by, and I consider myself to be a stronger person than most, therefore I will always help those who need it. 

    If I get 3 hots and a cot for 10-20 years because I double-tapped a rapist/murderer/thief/troll bent on depriving someone of their right to live, then so be it.  It's better than going to jail for ripping the tag off the mattress.
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    Gundoc

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 10:19:31 pm »
    All I have to say on this is... George, PrivateJoker, Amen brothers.

    Semper Fi.

    oneshooter

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 10:26:00 pm »
      FMJ, The vast majority of bank robberies are commited by a single felon with a note. Only rairly is a weapon shown. My question is simple, would you, as a legal CCW holder , intervene in such a senerio? These are only a couple of situations you "could" find yourself in.
      What limits do you place on yourself, by yourself, in cases where the innocent are in harms way?


     Oneshooter
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    Ishpeck

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 10:36:29 pm »
    Ishpeckian policy: I intervene if I have reason to believe that someone's life is in danger and I can stop the threat.  Doesn't matter if it's in a robbery or just a Virginia Tech type situation.  Life is worth preserving.  The rest is just police reports.
    Ishpeck's Law: As United States political discourse grows longer, the probability of Ronald Reagan being used as a justification for one's argument approaches one.
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    grampster

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #7 on: November 05, 2008, 10:45:50 pm »
    The situation always dictates the response.  There are times to act and there are times to be wary. 

    Let me give another example.  You are coming home and when you punch the garage door opener to enter the garage, you notice your door to the house is open.  You know you closed it when you left.  What do you do?

    When I was in LE, a captain that taught me much about being a good policeman often brought up scenarios which were teaching moments.  One of the things he often mentioned was the fact that if we got killed doing something stupid, we'd never appreciate the wonderful white glove ceremony they would hold for our funerals.  I attended 3 of those on my watch.  All good friends that I worked with, played fast pitch softball with, drank beer with, knew their wives and kids.  One I helped finish the house he was building after we buried him.  All died doing something stupid.  Brave men?  By all means.  But died because they were not wary and forgot that that they were flesh and blood.

    Please don't get lost in the notion that because you fancy playing with firearms that somehow that makes you invincible or able to halt the next shooting at a mall.  The situation dictates the response.
    "Politicians lie for the same reason that monkeys use their tails, which is to say because they can."

    alone

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 11:14:31 pm »
     Re: We The Armed.

    My interpretation :

    The first thing I want to arm myself with, is knowledge.

    Everybody wants to default to gun, or knife or some kind of physical object , in order to be "armed".

    I beg to differ.

    The wise learn many things from their enemies. - Aristophanes
     
    The key to wisdom is this -- constant and frequent questioning ... for by doubting we are led to question and by questioning we arrive at the truth. - Peter Abelard

    One cannot shoot, what they cannot see-  Fred Misseldine

    My point is simple; without knowledge I cannot recognize threats, nor can I  defend against them.
    Some threats are not best handled by a gun.

    Recognizing a person is choking is based on knowledge, as is knowing how to perform the Heimlich maneuver.
    It might be a husband, wife, son or daughter that is choking.

    If one is in a Airport, or Courthouse, they will not get past security with metal detectors, with gun, knife or much else.
    Armed with knowledge, one can handle someone choking, catch a plane, or serve on a jury.


    Internet is Global, we have many member in countries where they are restricted in regard to guns and knives.
    They are part of WE The Armed.

    Sticking with the USA, many areas in the USA deny rights of citizens in regard to firearms.
    Even areas of the USA, that have concealed carry , concealed weapon permits/ licenses, have restrictions.

    Armed with knowledge, folks can attend meetings in restrictive settings from city, county, state and federal buildings to discuss Conceal Carry, Open Carry, Building a Range, Hunting , Habitat, and Conservation.

    I hear folks often share that if they cannot have a gun, then they will not frequent a building , or event.
    I disagree with this cut and dried , black and white attitude.

    WE need to use knowledge , to gain more knowledge about our enemies. We need to know more about the subject matter being discussed, so WE can correct those things shared in meetings that are not correct.
    WE need to take the offensive instead of always being on the defensive.

    Armed with knowledge we can and have made a difference in so many areas that pertain to our Mission Statement.


    Mindset, Skillset "then" Toolsets...in that order. - Boyd
     
    None of us will ever accomplish anything excellent or commanding except when he listens to this whisper which is heard by him alone.

    - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    FMJ

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #9 on: November 05, 2008, 11:25:15 pm »
    KNOWLEDGE IS POWER


    But I agree in that the situation dictates the response.
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 11:37:37 pm »
    If the situation requires consideration, I will consider it.  If the situation calls for a response, I will respond.  With whatever the situation requires.  METT Dictates.  I protect my family first then I protect my neighbors.  This is a part of who I am. 

    "Just remember what old Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."
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    Nolo

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 12:02:55 am »
    Quote
    One of the things he often mentioned was the fact that if we got killed doing something stupid, we'd never appreciate the wonderful white glove ceremony they would hold for our funerals.  I attended 3 of those on my watch.  All good friends that I worked with, played fast pitch softball with, drank beer with, knew their wives and kids.  One I helped finish the house he was building after we buried him.  All died doing something stupid.  Brave men?  By all means.  But died because they were not wary and forgot that that they were flesh and blood.

    Please don't get lost in the notion that because you fancy playing with firearms that somehow that makes you invincible or able to halt the next shooting at a mall.  The situation dictates the response.
    For me personally, it ain't about that.
    My life is only worth the lives of those around me. Without those lives, mine is forfeit.
    Now, that's not to say I should try to get myself killed...
    Thanks for listening

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 12:04:48 am »
    When someone tries to kill you... you try to kill them right back.
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    PrivateJoker

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 12:06:48 am »
    When someone tries to kill you... you try to kill them right back.

    Hmmm...we can't seem to go 2 threads without a Firefly reference... ;D
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    Nolo

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 12:08:00 am »
    Quote
    When someone tries to kill you... you try to kill them right back.
    Sure. I mean, there are certainly exceptions to my rules. But IMO, human life is worth defending. Even at the expense of my own.
    Quote
    Hmmm...we can't seem to go 2 threads without a Firefly reference...
    Wouldn't have it any other way... This is definitely a board I can call home.
    Thanks for listening

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 12:39:59 am »
    They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. That seem right to you?

    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
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    Gundoc

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 01:16:54 am »
    They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. That seem right to you?


    Whooh...deep thoughts man. ;D

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #17 on: November 06, 2008, 01:43:40 am »
    Hmmm...we can't seem to go 2 threads without a Firefly reference... ;D

    You say that like it's a bad thing.

    I'm iffy on the description of dead officers as usually dying stupidly and needlessly.

    Sometimes, it's a fair trade in the mind of those rushing to the rescue - be it a fireman running into a burning building or a policeman standing between the citizens he serves and protects and a madman.
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    Kragax

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #18 on: November 06, 2008, 05:54:35 am »
    I will always intervine to protect my family or anyone elses children. Im not so inclined to intervine for a bank insured by FDIC. I would suffer what ever it took to protect your child but, a financial institution is on thier own. Too many people in a confined area also, I shoot IDPA but thats a game. I don't have LEO training, I could make it worse, let em have the dough.

    ridata

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #19 on: November 06, 2008, 01:03:34 pm »
    Thanks for your post alone, I enjoy reading your posts that every 5 posts someone at THR would say you didn't make any sense.  ;D

    Kragax, you make a good point. Any FDIC bank will get its money back, and it isn't your money you're protecting. As long as there is no direct threat to life by the criminal, I'll leave him alone. I don't want to risk getting someone else killed because I intervened. If, however, he is threatening harm, and has the means to back it up, depending on the circumstance, I wil intervene.

    It is another matter if I'm walking to the bank with my money. You'd sure better keep your distance.
    If I saw a guy with a 60cu/ft safe filled to the brim with nothing but Jennings, Lorcins and Hi-Points, I'd look at the guy and say "Right on brother".
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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #20 on: November 06, 2008, 01:23:04 pm »
    I will always intervine to protect my family or anyone elses children. Im not so inclined to intervine for a bank insured by FDIC. I would suffer what ever it took to protect your child but, a financial institution is on thier own. Too many people in a confined area also, I shoot IDPA but thats a game. I don't have LEO training, I could make it worse, let em have the dough.

    Lives are irreplacable.  Money ain't.

    But, I'd trade a violent felon for a kid any day of the week.
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Michael

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 02:37:44 pm »
    We The Armed. Willing to defend ourselves and our families.
    But what about others? Defend a bank against a robber?  Help a stranger against a attacker?
    My question is what limits are there, not legal limits as they are codified and known. But what personal limits in the defence of others do YOU observe.

    We The Armed is a large responsibility, as all of us that carry know.

    As many others have responded, it depends on the situation.  I myself will never shoot for property, mine or someone elses.  That's what insurance is for, but threaten my, or my loved one's, well being and I'll punch your ticket without a second thought.  Regarding strangers, know the totallity of the situation.  There are many - many mistake of fact shootings every year.  If I do not know the totallity of the situation, I will only intervein if there is a definate threat of death of serious bodily injury to another.  For example, if I do not know how it started, I'll watch a big guy beat up a little guy to a point before I involve myself in it.  Ever try to break up a fight between brother and then have them both turin on you?!?  Make your choices/decisions now.  Play the "what if" game often.  Have other tools in the bag (martial arts, less lethal options) besides just the blaster.
    Train hard, fight easy.

    fiveofnine

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 02:41:58 pm »
    As a deployable weapons system, I would not hesitate to use deadly force to stop an innocent from being harmed if I was certain I understood the situation.  The guilty, not so much.
    "Optimism doesn't alter the laws of physics" T'Pol

    For 10,000 years, the sharp stick was the most deadly weapon on the battlefield.  It's design was refined and continues in use today in Iraq and Afghanistan as the bayonet.

    oneshooter

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 10:12:00 pm »
      There seems to be a commen thought running through the answers here. That is that all would fight in the defence of a stranger in trouble but allow the loss of property.
     
    Is there any senario that would cause you to fight for property (ie. money, car, home, ect.).

     Oneshooter
     Livin in Texas
     

    Michael

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    Re: We The Armed
    « Reply #24 on: November 06, 2008, 10:22:12 pm »
    There seems to be a commen thought running through the answers here. That is that all would fight in the defence of a stranger in trouble but allow the loss of property.
     
    Is there any senario that would cause you to fight for property (ie. money, car, home, ect.).


    Me personally, no.  Yes, I like my things and no, this is not an invitation to come and loot  ;) but using deadly force is not worth the  :cuss storm I will have to deal with (living in California) after the fact.  I do not want to get sued, made an example of by an overzealous DA, get hounded by the antigun press, and the rest of the mess that comes after a shooting over property.
    Train hard, fight easy.

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