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Information and Education => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 12:02:28 pm

Title: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 12:02:28 pm
I'm considering carrying a tourniquet with me in my daily travels, as it is a necessary piece of gear that has been missing from my load out for quite some time.

I want one that is well rated and that I can carry on me, daily.

I'm thinking of a RAT tourniquet, carried in my pocket.

(http://jafactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/RATS_tourniquet_A.jpg)

Or a CAT tourniquet carried on my calf, like I have seen some LEO's do.

(http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CAT-Combat-Application-Tourniquet.jpg)

I've been meaning to add one of these for a while, and honestly, I should have done it sooner. I can't legally carry my gun everywhere, but I can make sure that I have medical care if I get injured.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: freeman1685 on September 02, 2017, 03:18:03 pm
You'd do better stocking up on bandages, gauze pads, even feminine care products (pads).  A tourniquet is the last thing you would use, short of a lost limb, or an arterial bleed.  Once one is applied, only a doctor should remove it.  It is the last resort, the very last.  You're asking for a nasty case of necrosis, or even gangrene.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Kaso on September 02, 2017, 04:14:30 pm
I think Chris is probably the most qualified among us to know when and how to apply a tourniquet.  As well as be aware of the potential consequences.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 04:39:04 pm
I think Chris is probably the most qualified among us to know when and how to apply a tourniquet.  As well as be aware of the potential consequences.

Thanks Eric  :thumbup1.

Necrosis and sufficient toxin build up doesn't happen until after about 4.5 hours (depending upon whose research you go by, but I personally like to obey the same guidelines as ischemic strokes and fibrinolytic therapy).

While I am trained in critical care for long term in a hospital situation, I am not talking about long term or SHTF. I am talking about while still under rule of law. If some miscreant shoots or cuts me in my daily travels, cranking down on an artery/limb for the 15 minutes it takes me to get to the hospital won't hurt anything. Leaving an arterial bleed open for those 15 minutes, however, might have some untoward effects on my person that I really don't want. Even if it was a long term SHTF scenario, remember holistic medicine teaches us to save life over limb anyways  ;) .

This isn't SHTF, apocalypse now, or me asking the proper use and consideration of one, this is merely me asking what tourniquets are highly recommended by the guys who know about them and use them. In the hospital, I don't get to use a tourniquet except the stretchy rubber ones before a venipuncture.... And those don't count for much in the department of GSW's  :neener.

One of our members on the forum teaches a CCW class and seems to know quite a bit about tourniquets. I forget who it was though  :hmm.

Back to the original thread question. What make and model of tourniquets do you guys like? Which one's are highly rated that you swear by?
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 02, 2017, 05:51:15 pm
You'd do better stocking up on bandages, gauze pads, even feminine care products (pads).  A tourniquet is the last thing you would use, short of a lost limb, or an arterial bleed.  Once one is applied, only a doctor should remove it.  It is the last resort, the very last.  You're asking for a nasty case of necrosis, or even gangrene.
IIRC, doctrine on when to apply a tourniquet has changed drastically.   It's no longer the last resort.
Surgeons in certain ratified fields, hands for example, nave been using them for "bloodless surgery" for quite some time without ill effect.

If it's a nasty bleed and your in doubt, slap a tourniquet on it, mark he time, and go on with the rest of it and push the patient to higher care.


Apologies to MK if I stepped on any toes...
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 06:03:43 pm
IIRC, doctrine on when to apply a tourniquet has changed drastically.   It's no longer the last resort.
Surgeons in certain ratified fields, hands for example, nave been using them for "bloodless surgery" for quite some time without ill effect.

If it's a nasty bleed and your in doubt, slap a tourniquet on it, mark he time, and go on with the rest of it and push the patient to higher care.


Apologies to MK if I stepped on any toes...

No apologies needed  :cool. While I have set foot only a few times in the surgical suite, it is to my understanding that you are pretty spot on with your above statements :thumbup1. I think surgery is cool, but it's not my area of interest.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Plebian on September 02, 2017, 06:21:42 pm
Tourniquet on the neck to stop a head wound is somehow not funny to your instructor for some odd reason.  :neener

I have taken a few wilderness emergency medical classes beyond just my EMT-B I got in college. It would probably be a decent idea to go through certification to EMT-B again. I assume it has changed some in the last 10 years or so.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 07:20:26 pm
Tourniquet on the neck to stop a head wound is somehow not funny to your instructor for some odd reason.  :neener

I have taken a few wilderness emergency medical classes beyond just my EMT-B I got in college. It would probably be a decent idea to go through certification to EMT-B again. I assume it has changed some in the last 10 years or so.

:rotfl

I did make that joke in class! Problem is that I have an incredibly dry sense of humour and so I just get looked at funny  :-[ . People are just unappreciative of subtlety and humour, I tell ya  :neener.

I still maintain the goal to be like ICU nurses. They have the best dry, dark humour in the world. Yes, it has been needed to be explained at unit meetings on the work appropriateness of it, but you have not had a good shift until you've heard a seasoned ICU nurse say "welcome to my field of vegetables!" or "It's ok, I'll just unplug her vent to charge my cell phone" with the flattest expression possible. It takes a special breed  ;).
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: freeman1685 on September 02, 2017, 08:24:23 pm
OK, so it's been a while.  Christopher, I was unaware of your training.  I haven't been through as advanced courses, but in the training that I've had (both military, and civilian), they said tourniquets are a no-no.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 08:47:27 pm
OK, so it's been a while.  Christopher, I was unaware of your training.  I haven't been through as advanced courses, but in the training that I've had (both military, and civilian), they said tourniquets are a no-no.

No worries, friend  :cool. Honestly, until just a few years ago I was taught the same thing.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 09:00:44 pm
I might go with the RAT. I love how compact it looks. I don't think I have to worry about the length on the tourniquet as I have a pretty small frame.

http://gunguysreviews.com/rats-tourniquet/

Quote
If You do live fire training, especially with others doing movements with you, and you do not have an IFAK with a tourniquet then you are full of fail.  We could debate all day long about what medical supplies you should carry in your IFAK, but when it comes to tourniquets there are a few mandatory requirements to consider.  It must be, in no particular order:
Easy to deploy, even single handedly
  • Durable
  • Reliable
  • Effective
Generally when you talk about tourniquets, the CAT and SOF tourniquets get the most mentions as they are pretty much the standard.  They are really simple overall to use: pull it out, unfold, slip it over the extremity, adjust it, twist rod to tighten, lock rod into place.

The Rapid Application Tourniquet, RATS Tourniquet, is a bit of a different beast though to accomplish the same end result.  Instead of a wide, adjustable strap, it is instead a single long piece of narrow, flat, bungee cord.  Instead of a tension rod to twist, it has a cleat that you jam the bungee cord into in order to lock it in place.

By nature of its compact design, it is easy to carry the RATS TQ by simply rolling it up in a coil that will fit in even a small pouch, like a compass pouch for example.  Pull it out, hold the cleat end, and it’ll unroll itself.  Once deployed, put the far end of the TQ through the loop on the cleat end and then fit it over your extremity.  You then wrap the bungee around the extremity several times to make the wrap wide enough (you’ll want 1.5″ at least) and then jam the cord into the cleat to hold it in place.  Tada, bleeding stopped. It does seem to be a lot faster to deploy, and uses less fine motor skills, than some other TQs that I’ve used.

We had a few concerns at first about the RATS Tourniquet.  The first was that the 1/2″ bungee cord is pretty narrow and we were afraid of the cord cutting into skin when pressure is applied.  This turned out to be mostly unfounded as the multiple wraps makes the tourniquet wide enough to prevent that from happening though. The only time this was an issue was when Ryan and I tested the RATS Tourniquet on our upper thighs – we both have rather huge legs and due to the length of the TQ, we had to REALLY crank down on the cord to get it into the lock after the 3 wraps needed to make it wide enough on our legs (1.5″ width is recommended to prevent material from cutting into your skin).  That made it way too tight there.  This is caused by the length – if the RATS Tourniquet was extended a couple inches (which the manufacturer said they can do), it would be perfectly fine there.  Used on our arms or below our upper thighs had no issues at all and it worked well.

Unlike the CAT and SOF tourniquets, no tension rod is used and instead you pull the tourniquet tight and slip it into a metal cleat that will lock it into place. We couldn’t get it to come loose even when we only partially locked it in place (since we needed to keep using the  TQ for additional testing).  The RATS Tourniquet, like other tourniquets, is supposed to be single use and the cleat is designed for that.  Once locked into place, it isn’t going anywhere.  And actually, that would be a huge problem if the manufacturer didn’t have great attention to detail.  Since leaving a tourniquet on too long can be dangerous to the patient, you need a way to be able to remove the tourniquet at some point, and it may be at a time where you don’t have shears to cut it off.  To prevent that issue, the cleat was designed with a notch that allows you to easily bend the cleat out of the way if needed to release the bungee cord.  That’s pretty neat.

The RATS Tourniquet is very well designed with high quality materials.  The bungee cord is protected with a covering to prevent wear, the bungee cord itself is very durable and hasn’t stretched, cracked or torn from multiple stretches and the metal cleat system is extremely effective.

When this tourniquet comes up in discussion, I’m always asked what tourniquet I carry.  I do carry a CAT TQ on my plate carrier, because it is a fine tourniquet and easy to deploy as it’s kept outside of any pouches, but I also carry a RATS Tourniquet on my war belt and in the small IFAK I keep in my car.  If I didn’t have a CAT TQ already, I would absolutely consider carrying a RATS Tourniquet in its place.

A very fast, easy to deploy tourniquet that rivals the other standards out there. Its unique design makes it very compact and uses less fine motor skills to use while still maintaining excellent effectiveness. Our only issue is wrapping it on massive upper thighs, but asking the manufacturer for a longer version will solve that issue - though we think they should be a bit longer by default.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 02, 2017, 09:01:39 pm
There are some dissenting opinions. They have issued an update here, however.

http://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/is-the-r-a-t-s-tourniquet-misleading-consumers-with-tccc-approval/
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: 21B on September 02, 2017, 11:44:41 pm
I've always carried a CAT since Iraq, usually in my work bag. Last year we finally did tourniquet training at work with our former SF/SWAT medic trainer and we tested out the CAT, SOF, SWAT-T, and RAT. The RAT was by far the quickest to administer, especially for self-aid, and one-handed. So we all ended up with RATs in our IFAKs, and I still carry the CAT in my work bag. Just remember to store the RAT preset with the three finger loop threaded, otherwise it takes a few seconds more to set up and administer.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 12:12:08 am
I've always carried a CAT since Iraq, usually in my work bag. Last year we finally did tourniquet training at work with our former SF/SWAT medic trainer and we tested out the CAT, SOF, SWAT-T, and RAT. The RAT was by far the quickest to administer, especially for self-aid, and one-handed. So we all ended up with RATs in our IFAKs, and I still carry the CAT in my work bag. Just remember to store the RAT preset with the three finger loop threaded, otherwise it takes a few seconds more to set up and administer.

This is the kind of feedback I wanted  :thumbup2 .

How sturdy is the RAT? I have never looked at one in person, but it seems small compared to the others. I will be carrying it in my jeans pocket. Looking at worst case scenario it may get stuffed in the same pocket as my car keys or in my back pocket where it would be sat on, etc. Do you think it could handle this kind of abuse?

My other option is I would consider carrying a CAT exactly like this officer is at 5:41 on my off ankle (how many people can say they have an 'off ankle'?  :rotfl Then again If I have an off ankle, why isn't there another gun there?  :hmm).

Warning, video is pretty bloody.

https://youtu.be/hOy8rGV6D_Q


Final question: Are the RAT and CAT one use only tourniquets? Meaning that I should not 'practice' applying it or else it'll weaken or otherwise fluff it up?

I really appreciate the input 21B  :cool.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2017, 01:12:51 am
For the record, it will be a cold day in hell before I try to 'save the life' of a perp that just tried to end mine.  Shoot to stop the threat, and stop shooting as soon as the threat ends, and if the attacker subsequently bleeds out and dies, that is a feature, not a bug.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 01:43:20 am
For the record, it will be a cold day in hell before I try to 'save the life' of a perp that just tried to end mine.  Shoot to stop the threat, and stop shooting as soon as the threat ends, and if the attacker subsequently bleeds out and dies, that is a feature, not a bug.

I believe that bad guys are like radiation, the longer you are exposed to them, the more dangerous it is. Always fight with the intention to break contact and get the heck out of there.

That being said, I'm not sure if I could leave another human being to bleed out. I guess it would depend on circumstance, but knowing me, I could see myself trying to help someone who just tried to hurt me. My actions might be noble, and most definitely it would be stupid, but I don't really have to try too hard to have the mindset that I do in the matter  :shrug.

In the end, the tourniquet is for me or someone I care about first and foremost.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: 21B on September 03, 2017, 01:59:21 am
The RAT is pretty sturdy, before we had IFAKs I carried mine in my suit coat pocket for months. It is definitely the easiest/lightest/most compact carry out of all the tourniquets we tested. It is up to par and able to deal with EDC, though the metal cleat might poke you now and then. The RAT is super compact when it ships, but once you set it up with the loop & tail, it isn't as flat as pictured (but still smaller that any other tourniquet). I know a high speed person that carries his with the loop & metal cleat poking up outside his waistband, and the long tail down the inside of his pant leg--ready to deploy anytime with ease. I got one of RAT's EDC elastic sleeves to test out, but I ended up using it more for a horizontal mag pouch or to mount my Benchmade SOCP on my suspenders.

I tried carrying the CAT on my belt, but the velcro kept catching on stuff, or the CAT would unfold and hang down--probably much easier to mount on the ankle (some of our guys use ankle mounted IFAKs). I've trained with my own personal CAT and RAT, and they haven't shown any undue wear and should last a while (eventually the elastic on the RAT might wear out, but probably 5-10 plus years before that happens. The CAT has plastic detents weaved into the fabric that helps hold the torsion bar by friction, that eventually might go bad, but again, this CAT has lasted me 10 years and multiple practice applications).

As far as re-usability in the real world, I have heard secondhand of an ER doc and first responders using the same RATs multiple times, just making sure they were washed and sanitized after each use. Practice makes perfect, and we did all kinds of timed drills on different appendages, self-application or application to others, one-handed or both hands.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 02:13:31 am
The RAT is pretty sturdy, before we had IFAKs I carried mine in my suit coat pocket for months. It is definitely the easiest/lightest/most compact carry out of all the tourniquets we tested. It is up to par and able to deal with EDC, though the metal cleat might poke you now and then. The RAT is super compact when it ships, but once you set it up with the loop & tail, it isn't as flat as pictured (but still smaller that any other tourniquet). I know a high speed person that carries his with the loop & metal cleat poking up outside his waistband, and the long tail down the inside of his pant leg--ready to deploy anytime with ease. I got one of RAT's EDC elastic sleeves to test out, but I ended up using it more for a horizontal mag pouch or to mount my Benchmade SOCP on my suspenders.

I tried carrying the CAT on my belt, but the velcro kept catching on stuff, or the CAT would unfold and hang down--probably much easier to mount on the ankle (some of our guys use ankle mounted IFAKs). I've trained with my own personal CAT and RAT, and they haven't shown any undue wear and should last a while (eventually the elastic on the RAT might wear out, but probably 5-10 plus years before that happens. The CAT has plastic detents weaved into the fabric that helps hold the torsion bar by friction, that eventually might go bad, but again, this CAT has lasted me 10 years and multiple practice applications).

As far as re-usability in the real world, I have heard secondhand of an ER doc and first responders using the same RATs multiple times, just making sure they were washed and sanitized after each use. Practice makes perfect, and we did all kinds of timed drills on different appendages, self-application or application to others, one-handed or both hands.

Fantastic, thanks!

I really like the idea of setting up the 3 finger loop and then feeding the rest down my pant leg while the 'samurai hat' sits in the waistband. That sounds really unique and like it would be the most gentle on the RAT.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 03, 2017, 08:50:11 am
For the record, it will be a cold day in hell before I try to 'save the life' of a perp that just tried to end mine.  Shoot to stop the threat, and stop shooting as soon as the threat ends, and if the attacker subsequently bleeds out and dies, that is a feature, not a bug.
I fully concur.

I like to think of it falling under "Toyota's Law".
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 10:54:43 am
I like the timing of this video  :cool.

https://youtu.be/0E8T_-bO5V0

TL;DR

Officer in car is dealing with perp who wiggled out of handcuffs. The two get into a fight and the officer gets his eyes badly gouged. Officer pulls firearms and blindly gives the perp the room temperature challenge. Buddy is behind the perp while the criminal is shot and takes a bad hit from his blind partner. A TQ is used on hit partner.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 03, 2017, 12:05:28 pm
I like the timing of this video  :cool.

https://youtu.be/0E8T_-bO5V0

TL;DR

Officer in car is dealing with perp who wiggled out of handcuffs. The two get into a fight and the officer gets his eyes badly gouged. Officer pulls firearms and blindly gives the perp the room temperature challenge. Buddy is behind the perp while the criminal is shot and takes a bad hit from his blind partner. A TQ is used on hit partner.
The partner should be carrying his TQ where he can access it himself with either hand and apply it to himself.

Easy to say that as I sit on my sofa and hindsight being 20/20 and so forth, but quite seriously things like TQs and blow out kits should be something you can grab and apply to yourself with either hand.  You can't count on anybody being there to help you. 
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 12:23:12 pm
The partner should be carrying his TQ where he can access it himself with either hand and apply it to himself.

Easy to say that as I sit on my sofa and hindsight being 20/20 and so forth, but quite seriously things like TQs and blow out kits should be something you can grab and apply to yourself with either hand.  You can't count on anybody being there to help you.

Couch commentator #2 reporting in: I have never been shot before, so I am sure that messes with a guys perception, but the poor partner was literally 'flying blind' when he applied that TQ. The whole reason I want to carry one is so that I don't have to beg anyone to borrows theirs. I don't think all cops carry a TQ, so I definitely can't expect all cake eating civilians to.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 03, 2017, 01:25:05 pm
I have never been shot before, so I am sure that messes with a guys perception..
I've limited experience with it, in my case felt like getting hit with a baseball bat followed by a burning/throbbing sensation.  I imagine it varies greatly depending on where and what gets hit.

Focus did seem to sharpen rather than fade....
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: freeman1685 on September 03, 2017, 01:55:22 pm
I've limited experience with it, in my case felt like getting hit with a baseball bat followed by a burning/throbbing sensation.  I imagine it varies greatly depending on where and what gets hit.

Focus did seem to sharpen rather than fade....

Yeah, adrenaline can have that effect.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: ETCss McCrackin on September 03, 2017, 10:25:44 pm
For clarity, I have what many would consider the minimum with respect to medical training, so my opinion is worth exactly what is being paid for it. 

However, I have the RAT, the CAT and the SWAT, and while the CAT is definitely the best/most effective, they will all almost certainly work.  Carrying them daily however, just like everything we carry, means evaluating the need vs the effort to execute.  Would we all like for example, a 7.62 MBR, 1000 rounds and an 18 round modern autopistol as a backup?  Sure, but life doesn't always allow it, and even if it did, would you tolerate the hassle for such a small percentage problem? 

Therefore, I have a CAT in my vehicles and range bag, the RAT + Compression bandage in my uniform pants, and the SWAT-T + QuikClot bandage in my EDC packet.  The uniform and EDC are wrapped in a heavy duty elastic band that keeps them "relatively" slim (about the size of a wallet).  The RAT, for as small as you think it could wrap up, is actually surprisingly bulky (although way less then a CAT), so I have it wrapped around the periphery of a compression bandage for a package 5x4, and about an inch thick.   

The SWAT-T is smaller, and honestly more useful because of it's printed instructions and the capability for it to be used as simple wide compression rather than a TQ.  It "moves" in a pocket, and is therefore more comfortable to carry.  In my pocket, it is in the same elastic paired with a Quikclot bandage, with a band sewed on to serve as a mag holder, which all fits into a back pocket.   

It seems paranoid to carry a TQ or even medical stuff at all, but when you think about the crap we go through to "maybe" put holes in an attacker, it's not that far off to imagine yourself or a loved one being injured horribly, from everything from a Haji bullet to a car wreck.  You can't shoot your way out of a vehicle accident where your kid is suffering an amputation that's bleeding out. 
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: freeman1685 on September 03, 2017, 10:35:30 pm
Is it bad that my first aid kit consists of a roll of toilet paper, duct tape, several bandanas and a screw driver?  :-[
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 10:55:46 pm
For clarity, I have what many would consider the minimum with respect to medical training, so my opinion is worth exactly what is being paid for it. 

However, I have the RAT, the CAT and the SWAT, and while the CAT is definitely the best/most effective, they will all almost certainly work.  Carrying them daily however, just like everything we carry, means evaluating the need vs the effort to execute.  Would we all like for example, a 7.62 MBR, 1000 rounds and an 18 round modern autopistol as a backup?  Sure, but life doesn't always allow it, and even if it did, would you tolerate the hassle for such a small percentage problem? 

Therefore, I have a CAT in my vehicles and range bag, the RAT + Compression bandage in my uniform pants, and the SWAT-T + QuikClot bandage in my EDC packet.  The uniform and EDC are wrapped in a heavy duty elastic band that keeps them "relatively" slim (about the size of a wallet).  The RAT, for as small as you think it could wrap up, is actually surprisingly bulky (although way less then a CAT), so I have it wrapped around the periphery of a compression bandage for a package 5x4, and about an inch thick.   

The SWAT-T is smaller, and honestly more useful because of it's printed instructions and the capability for it to be used as simple wide compression rather than a TQ.  It "moves" in a pocket, and is therefore more comfortable to carry.  In my pocket, it is in the same elastic paired with a Quikclot bandage, with a band sewed on to serve as a mag holder, which all fits into a back pocket.   

It seems paranoid to carry a TQ or even medical stuff at all, but when you think about the crap we go through to "maybe" put holes in an attacker, it's not that far off to imagine yourself or a loved one being injured horribly, from everything from a Haji bullet to a car wreck.  You can't shoot your way out of a vehicle accident where your kid is suffering an amputation that's bleeding out. 

Thank you for the input, I have yet to learn anything about the SWAT-T. I'll have to fix this and see if it might fit my needs better. If I can carry it in the back left pocket of my Wrangler's then that might just be the ticket.

Is it bad that my first aid kit consists of a roll of toilet paper, duct tape, several bandanas and a screw driver?  :-[

Not at all. Hell, before this conversation, mine has only had a Band-Aid, a stick of gum, and one bullet  :neener . On the good days the stick of gum cures most, if it is pretty bad (such as a papercut or the like) then the Band-Aid, and if things are really bleak...  :P .
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: ETCss McCrackin on September 03, 2017, 11:20:28 pm
If I can carry it in the back left pocket of my Wrangler's then that might just be the ticket.

At the risk of a fashion discussion erupting, that's precisely my pants de jour.  Back left with the SWAT-T, Quikclot, and Glock17/1911/Shield mag (depending on carry piece) is bulky, but not any moreso than a wallet.   
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 03, 2017, 11:44:30 pm
At the risk of a fashion discussion erupting, that's precisely my pants de jour.  Back left with the SWAT-T, Quikclot, and Glock17/1911/Shield mag (depending on carry piece) is bulky, but not any moreso than a wallet.

I'm definitely going to do research on this then, when I get the chance  :thumbup1. I can live with something the size of a bulky wallet, as my own wallet is like 2 inches thick. I think this is a large part of the reason that Luke made his slim carry wallet, cos I never clean out the damn thing. I still think I have my High School ID and maybe even an expired driver's license still in there :hide .
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: 21B on September 04, 2017, 01:16:24 am
I like the SWAT-T for its versatility, but try putting it on one-handed, it's bad enough applying it with two hands. Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 04, 2017, 09:51:38 am
I like the SWAT-T for its versatility, but try putting it on one-handed, it's bad enough applying it with two hands. Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.

Oh...

That complicates things then  :-\ .
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: ETCss McCrackin on September 04, 2017, 11:01:48 am
Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.

Yeah, it's a bit of a hassle, and I can't even imagine what high stress and a covering of blood will do, but I feel that it's a decent compromise between function and everyday comfort. 
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: bignate88 on September 04, 2017, 01:50:11 pm
I'm carrying the swat-t at the moment just because it slides between my double mag pouch and my belt. there are defiantly better tq's out there but it comes down to being convenient enough to have it on me at all times. I prefer having a good but not perfect tq on me over a perfect one at home in a drawer

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 04, 2017, 02:14:01 pm
I'm carrying the swat-t at the moment just because it slides between my double mag pouch and my belt. there are defiantly better tv's out there but it comes down to being convenient enough to have it on me at all times. I prefer having a good but not perfect tq on me over a perfect one at home in a drawer

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Very true, it's much like the pocket .380 vs full size 1911 argument.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: First Shirt on September 04, 2017, 06:17:56 pm
A paracord bracelet, and a sanitary napkin.  A ballpoint pen is nice, but not necessary.  What have I missed?

Oh, and if it's for a bullet hole bigger than .25 caliber, a tampon works pretty well.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 04, 2017, 09:59:40 pm
I would say no to the RATS. It is too skinny. On a skinny tq, the pressure required to squeeze the artery shut will also damage the tissue of the limb. CAT or SOFT-T Wide are wide enough. If you want something for your pocket, the SWAT-T is better than the RATS.

Don't get a RATS.

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 04, 2017, 10:01:06 pm
A paracord bracelet, and a sanitary napkin.  A ballpoint pen is nice, but not necessary.  What have I missed?

Oh, and if it's for a bullet hole bigger than .25 caliber, a tampon works pretty well.
No offense, but no.

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 04, 2017, 10:15:17 pm
The tampon is an interesting debate, albeit probably not one for this thread. I have heard that due to their design they wick blood away and out of the body into the tampon, which is not really what you want.

Personally, I'd rather just put telfa, then pack and stack bulk gauze until the bleeding is controlled. I find telfa fascinating, just because it doesn't screw up coagulation as badly as the gauze will. Ideally though, once you place it, leave it. Don't remove the stuff to check if the wound is still bleeding. If you think it's stopped bleeding, fine, it'll still be stopped in 30 minutes from now too if you don't mess with the dressing. "A checked pot never boils" and a checked wound never coagulates it seems.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Plebian on September 05, 2017, 12:01:16 am
I carry some suture materials in my pack for in the field along with some gauze/tape and the usual band aids etc.

I have stitched up enough critters and family. That I am for sure not going into a doctor to charge me for something I can do. Plus if I am in the field and only need to slap a few stitches in some boo boo. There is no reason to not just do it right there in the field.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 12:07:07 am
I carry some suture materials in my pack for in the field along with some gauze/tape and the usual band aids etc.

I have stitched up enough critters and family. That I am for sure not going into a doctor to charge me for something I can do. Plus if I am in the field and only need to slap a few stitches in some boo boo. There is no reason to not just do it right there in the field.

 :thumbup1
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Chief45 on September 05, 2017, 11:02:13 am
BOB has 4x4's, gauze, pressure bandages and Quik Clot.  My training has been to not do a tourniquet period, but we also operate on the theory that EMS will be along fairly quickly so we are trained to stabilize, apply pressure and wait.


The tampon is an interesting debate, albeit probably not one for this thread. I have heard that due to their design they wick blood away and out of the body into the tampon, which is not really what you want.

Personally, I'd rather just put telfa, then pack and stack bulk gauze until the bleeding is controlled. I find telfa fascinating, just because it doesn't screw up coagulation as badly as the gauze will. Ideally though, once you place it, leave it. Don't remove the stuff to check if the wound is still bleeding. If you think it's stopped bleeding, fine, it'll still be stopped in 30 minutes from now too if you don't mess with the dressing. "A checked pot never boils" and a checked wound never coagulates it seems.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 05, 2017, 11:38:46 am
BOB has 4x4's, gauze, pressure bandages and Quik Clot.  My training has been to not do a tourniquet period, but we also operate on the theory that EMS will be along fairly quickly so we are trained to stabilize, apply pressure and wait.
Chief,
Not trying to poo-poo on your training, but if you have any say so in it please push for more up to date protocols.  Aside from properly applied TQ's not being as much a risk for tissue damage as had been thought before, it speeds up things when you can slap one on and move onto to other urgent issues rather than remaining focused on applying pressure and whatnot.   Especially if EMS will be along shortly to transport to higher care.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 05, 2017, 12:33:45 pm
Basic EMT procedure is a pressure bandage, then TQ if bleeding continues. I would say if it just bleeding, bandage it. If it is dumping out, then tq
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 01:18:51 pm
Chief,
Not trying to poo-poo on your training, but if you have any say so in it please push for more up to date protocols.  Aside from properly applied TQ's not being as much a risk for tissue damage as had been thought before, it speeds up things when you can slap one on and move onto to other urgent issues rather than remaining focused on applying pressure and whatnot.   Especially if EMS will be along shortly to transport to higher care.

I've witnessed one 'accident' where I needed to stop bleeding and it wasn't arterial. Even just being a steady ooze it took a couple of nurses and about 20 minutes of us taking turns applying pressure and elevation. Not to mention we went through a mountain of dressing. I was really surprised.

I feel like this is similar to the calibre debate:

TQ sucks because you will probably get tissue damage and maybe nerve damage if it is real bad (I've heard that this is why the RATS is a flattish cord instead of round, to avoid the focusing of too much pressure in a small area, as part of its design).

Quik clot sucks because it makes emboli. You can survive without a limb, but getting a pulmonary embolus is one of the scariest things that can happen. It is so emergent that people can get them while in the hospital and still die  :shocked. Not only that, but there are instances of people opening their quik clot powder in too much of a hurry (after all it is during an emergency) and getting it in their eyes. Apparently that stuff eats eyeballs and causes permanent blindness  :shocked.

I like the option of a TQ, better to have and not need and all that jazz. Sadly, we just don't have the technology to restore life as quickly as we can take it, and there are caveats with all of our limited healthcare devices.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 05, 2017, 01:47:30 pm
I've witnessed one 'accident' where I needed to stop bleeding and it wasn't arterial. Even just being a steady ooze it took a couple of nurses and about 20 minutes of us taking turns applying pressure and elevation. Not to mention we went through a mountain of dressing. I was really surprised.

I feel like this is similar to the calibre debate:

TQ sucks because you will probably possibly get tissue damage and maybe nerve damage if it is real bad (I've heard that this is why the RATS is a flattish cord instead of round, to avoid the focusing of too much pressure in a small area, as part of its design).



The risk of tissue damage is quite small, based on data built up over more than a decade in the GWOT. 

You're spot on in what you noticed about the time and materials needed to stop a serious non-arterial bleeder. 
Slap the TQ on a heavy bleeder, and move on to to other more urgent issues.   Like other casualties, or  bad guys still active.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 02:21:22 pm
The risk of tissue damage is quite small, based on data built up over more than a decade in the GWOT. 

You're spot on in what you noticed about the time and materials needed to stop a serious non-arterial bleeder. 
Slap the TQ on a heavy bleeder, and move on to to other more urgent issues.   Like other casualties, or  bad guys still active.

Ok, cool  :thumbup1. I haven't looked at that study, but I'm glad that it is small.

Like I said, my tourniquet usage is minimal  :-[ . Other than the set guidelines of how long to leave it in place, they really haven't taught me much on the minimal/nonlife threatening damage caused by them.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 05, 2017, 06:11:45 pm
CAT is probably the most useful option, since you can apply it one-handed.

https://youtu.be/2u7Ent_L5Uc

https://youtu.be/x-admML71vg

The SWAT-T is about wallet-sized and can be used as a tourniquet or as a wrap for a pressure bandage. It takes some practice to get good at applying it to your own arm, but you won't bleed out as fast from your brachial artery as you will from your femoral artery. In my experimenting, you can hold one end in your teeth while you make the first wrap. Then it will stick to itself, and you can let it fall from your teeth while you stretch and wrap. In some of the 'hasty application' videos online, the SWAT-T can roll up or fold up, which can still work, but it is more effective if the tourniquet covers a wide surface area.

If you get a femoral artery bleed, I was told you have about 30 seconds before you pass out, but you should be able to use two hands, and get it wrapped quick.

https://youtu.be/xhs85-eAh4w

https://youtu.be/xhs85-eAh4w
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 05, 2017, 06:18:00 pm
If you aren't dumping blood, but just bleeding, consider a pressure bandage.

https://youtu.be/wNR8rRFgwNk
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 07:04:15 pm
I'll have to watch all of these when I get the time, but thank you for contributing to my research!

:thumbup2

How portable it the Israeli bandage? Is it about wallet size as well?
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 05, 2017, 08:00:22 pm
I have 6 inch wide bandages, and they are a little big for a wallet pocket. It fits pretty well in a 5.11 cargo pocket, though. I would get the 4 inch bandage if I didn't have cargo pockets. It is also vacuum packed, and so it doesn't compress or squish very much, it is fairly rigid for what it is.

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 05, 2017, 08:01:45 pm
Here are some photos.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/e80a8e99566d19ec945a9cecfdcd656e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/1244b69c39d0d147dd3d489b596ffe84.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/66880ec783bb5f3696e1a7bf086164a4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/783c7bc94a685a04172f0fe14bff3088.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/fb80cda717c245e5d22d0746f1444f85.jpg)

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 09:22:00 pm
The SOFT-T looks useful and like it has some potential to fold nice and compact  :hmm .

https://youtu.be/jll2MToAkjU

https://youtu.be/J5wAI9ZhZb0

http://shop.skinnymedic.com/SOFT-Tourniquet-SOFT-T-soft-t.htm

Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 05, 2017, 09:23:58 pm
https://youtu.be/HWYCARTSyd4

Nvm, both look pretty long/large and it's tough to tell through a computer screen  :banghead.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: coelacanth on September 06, 2017, 02:39:24 am
Yup.  I'm actually shorter, fatter and older than I actually look on a computer screen  .   .   .    :shrug
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 06, 2017, 03:26:34 am
I don't like how much fiddling around, and cinching is required on the SOF-T, compared with the CAT for one-handed application.

Of course, I also carry the SWAT-T which requires more practice than either of those to self-apply to an arm.

https://youtu.be/drOMjWNWECc

https://youtu.be/tzXNsfesUb0

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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 06, 2017, 03:50:04 am
Just saw the video of the SOFT-T wide with upgraded buckle. That might solve my qualms with that tourniquet.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 06, 2017, 09:18:40 am
Yup.  I'm actually shorter, fatter and older than I actually look on a computer screen  .   .   .    :shrug

 :rotfl  :facepalm
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Chief45 on September 06, 2017, 04:53:46 pm
Had a chat with our trauma medic on the SRT team.   Yep.   protocol on tourniquets has changed.  I'll be purchasing some more equipment and we've made plans for a gunshot / knife wound trauma class / basic first aid refresher for my department, in the next couple of months.  I appreciate the information as my training is out of date.   But then, I also remember training on about 6 different protocols for CPR as well. 

anyway,  good info and thanks for keeping me better informed guys.

 



Chief,
Not trying to poo-poo on your training, but if you have any say so in it please push for more up to date protocols.  Aside from properly applied TQ's not being as much a risk for tissue damage as had been thought before, it speeds up things when you can slap one on and move onto to other urgent issues rather than remaining focused on applying pressure and whatnot.   Especially if EMS will be along shortly to transport to higher care.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 06, 2017, 05:32:02 pm
Had a chat with our trauma medic on the SRT team.   Yep.   protocol on tourniquets has changed.  I'll be purchasing some more equipment and we've made plans for a gunshot / knife wound trauma class / basic first aid refresher for my department, in the next couple of months.  I appreciate the information as my training is out of date.   But then, I also remember training on about 6 different protocols for CPR as well. 

anyway,  good info and thanks for keeping me better informed guys.

 

I can help with this!  :cool

My BLS training for healthcare professionals, as provided to me by the AHA, says that if you are a single rescuer you give 30 compressions to every 2 rescue breaths. Compressions are most important and save lives, so make sure to do those first. If you have a partner with you, the protocol is the same 30 compressions to 2 breaths, except one of you will be compressions and the other will give breaths (you change roles/positions based on the fatigue of the compressor).

Healthcare providers specifically need AHA BLS training, so if you take a CPR class I recommend going through AHA. We have to renew ours every couple of years or so in order to work.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Chief45 on September 06, 2017, 05:56:44 pm
we just did our re-cert,  within the 10 months.  and rescue breaths are no longer used,  only chest compression.  as per AHA via per Red Cross, taught by our local EMS. 

as above,  I've been CPR certified for 30 plus years and I've had to go through about 6 different protocols now.



I can help with this!  :cool

My BLS training for healthcare professionals, as provided to me by the AHA, says that if you are a single rescuer you give 30 compressions to every 2 rescue breaths. Compressions are most important and save lives, so make sure to do those first. If you have a partner with you, the protocol is the same 30 compressions to 2 breaths, except one of you will be compressions and the other will give breaths (you change roles/positions based on the fatigue of the compressor).

Healthcare providers specifically need AHA BLS training, so if you take a CPR class I recommend going through AHA. We have to renew ours every couple of years or so in order to work.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 06, 2017, 06:16:03 pm
we just did our re-cert,  within the 10 months.  and rescue breaths are no longer used,  only chest compression.  as per AHA via per Red Cross, taught by our local EMS. 

as above,  I've been CPR certified for 30 plus years and I've had to go through about 6 different protocols now.

They taught you no rescue breaths at all? That's weird.

I know they stopped teaching them to joe public, but that's because of 'ick' factor, not so much that rescue breaths are a bad thing to give.

I was only trying to be helpful, btw, not insulting your 30 years of CPR experience  ;) . From the sounds of it, you have taken it and recertified way more than I have  :cool . Hell, I'm not even 30 years old.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: 21B on September 06, 2017, 10:08:52 pm
I've only done the CPR re-cert twice in the last five years, and yes, they changed to just chest compressions (wonder what they will change next?).

Anywho, check out the link for a vid on how effective the RAT is:

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/06/video-depicts-rats-tourniquet-efficacy-comfirmed-by-doppler/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/06/video-depicts-rats-tourniquet-efficacy-comfirmed-by-doppler/)
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 06, 2017, 11:07:35 pm
I've only done the CPR re-cert twice in the last five years, and yes, they changed to just chest compressions (wonder what they will change next?).

Anywho, check out the link for a vid on how effective the RAT is:

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/06/video-depicts-rats-tourniquet-efficacy-comfirmed-by-doppler/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/06/video-depicts-rats-tourniquet-efficacy-comfirmed-by-doppler/)

The comments section on that page is a nightmare! :hide

I checked out the vid and it looks good!  :thumbup1

I think I might get the SWAT-T for EDC, but if the SOFT-T could fold up nicely, that would be grand as well. Since I started doing my research, the RAT has a hell of a lot of polarising press for some reason. People either love it or they say it'll get ya "kilt in da streetz"  :facepalm.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on September 07, 2017, 12:18:01 am
We watched a video in my Advanced EMT class, about some new research. When doing proper chest compressions, it takes about 17 reps to build up enough pressure to make the blood start to move. And it only takes 3 seconds of rest for all that pressure to dissipate. So for EMTs they are still saying 30:2 compressions to breaths, but they are anticipating that the EMT crew would have bag valve masks and a partner to work with. If you are by yourself, or don't have the skill or equipment to give good breaths, then just do compressions. Moving the blood from the lungs to the body is far more important and difficult than making sure the lungs have fresh air in them.

Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: Chief45 on September 07, 2017, 11:03:43 am
No worries,  just was a comment about how things keep changing over the years.   

I've been talking with our EMS director and their training officer,  looks like we are going to set up a B-Con (Blood control) class for our people and see where we go from there.

Several different tourniquets on the market.  since I don't have a clue about any of them, I'll go with whatever our local EMS says to obtain and issue. Since they will be the ones doing the training, makes things simpler if they train us on what they prefer  :shrug. 





They taught you no rescue breaths at all? That's weird.

I know they stopped teaching them to joe public, but that's because of 'ick' factor, not so much that rescue breaths are a bad thing to give.

I was only trying to be helpful, btw, not insulting your 30 years of CPR experience  ;) . From the sounds of it, you have taken it and recertified way more than I have  :cool . Hell, I'm not even 30 years old.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: coyotesfan97 on September 07, 2017, 05:41:21 pm
we just did our re-cert,  within the 10 months.  and rescue breaths are no longer used,  only chest compression.  as per AHA via per Red Cross, taught by our local EMS. 

as above,  I've been CPR certified for 30 plus years and I've had to go through about 6 different protocols now.

That's what they taught in our re cert class
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: coyotesfan97 on September 07, 2017, 05:48:07 pm
We are currently being taught that TQs go as high up on the limb as they can go in case the artery has retracted inside the limb from the cut. Our medics say TQs can stay on for a long time without damaging the limb.

I currently carry a CAT TQ and Quik Clot on my person all the time when working. I just bought a hard case that I can attach to my patrol vest. I have another TQ on my tactical vest. I also have a first aid kits for my dog and me in the car.

My Department is in the process of buying IFAIKs for every patrol officer and will be training them in their use. I forgot which TQ will be in the kit.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: cpaspr on September 07, 2017, 06:01:50 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but what does IFAIK stand for?  Google was useless.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 07, 2017, 06:18:16 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but what does IFAIK stand for?  Google was useless.

Level I First Aid Kit. Is typically what I see it meaning (IFAK). I'm not sure if he snuck an extra I in there or if his abbreviation means something different  :shrug.
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: zayerpaul on September 07, 2017, 07:47:29 pm
IFAK stands for Individual First Aid Kit. I had no idea for the longest time either until someone on another thread used the full name. I had previously assumed the "I" stood for infantry because of all the military guys using the abbreviation.


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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: LowKey on September 08, 2017, 11:07:57 am
What he ^ said.

Keep in mind it's contents are intended to treat YOU, not someone else. 
If you use the contents of YOUR kit on the first casualty you come to, what happens when you become a casualty a few minutes later? 
You bleed out, because your TQ and bandages are wrapped around some other guys leg. :banghead

I realize that things may not pan out that way in real life, you may roll up on someone who needs a TQ and who isn't carrying one themselves....obviously you're going to do what you have to do, but if they have an IFAK use their stuff to treat them first.
Likewise is you need to improvise a TQ, take the item from the casualty not yourself.   They won't be needing their belt to hold up their pants, you on the other hand probably do.  ;)

Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 11, 2017, 10:30:47 pm
https://worldpoint.com/storm-ankle-kit.html

Think I found something that I need to consider. I really like this idea  :cool.

https://youtu.be/aZvT1jycMac

Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: ZeroTA on September 11, 2017, 11:14:06 pm
I'm late to the party. Sorry, didn't read the last half of the thread so sorry if I'm rehashing.

I have 2 Dark Angel HALO kits, one in each vehicle. I'll usually take the CAT-T out and carry it if I feel I'm a fun zone that warrants it. Bandages are easily improvised, good TQ's not so much.

The RAT is...decent. Not the best. I say this with zero experience besides one Trauma Medicine class. RATS don't work as well, and CAT's are easier to apply, both one and two-handed on yourself and others.

Guys will spend $200+ on a Glock barrel that doesn't do s*** but won't spend the money on a decent tourniquet. Buy a CAT-T and keep it handy.


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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: coyotesfan97 on September 12, 2017, 04:10:43 pm
Ryker Nylon Gear AFAK (Ankle First Aid Kit) CAT, scissors, gauze, quick clot, duct tape(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/20f555d79ac848207ad0838de0855b74.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/66f702624e24765406278f6c12a3bde1.jpg)


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Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: coelacanth on September 12, 2017, 04:24:13 pm
Nice.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: MTK20 on September 12, 2017, 04:25:15 pm
Ryker Nylon Gear AFAK (Ankle First Aid Kit) CAT, scissors, gauze, quick clot, duct tape(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/20f555d79ac848207ad0838de0855b74.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/66f702624e24765406278f6c12a3bde1.jpg)


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 :thumbup2
Title: Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
Post by: sohmdaddy on October 16, 2017, 12:01:40 am
https://youtu.be/mHqtrnQwZ7k (https://youtu.be/mHqtrnQwZ7k)