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Author Topic: Tourniquets for EDC.  (Read 15180 times)

freeman1685

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Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2017, 10:35:30 pm »
Is it bad that my first aid kit consists of a roll of toilet paper, duct tape, several bandanas and a screw driver?  :-[
ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #26 on: September 03, 2017, 10:55:46 pm »
    For clarity, I have what many would consider the minimum with respect to medical training, so my opinion is worth exactly what is being paid for it. 

    However, I have the RAT, the CAT and the SWAT, and while the CAT is definitely the best/most effective, they will all almost certainly work.  Carrying them daily however, just like everything we carry, means evaluating the need vs the effort to execute.  Would we all like for example, a 7.62 MBR, 1000 rounds and an 18 round modern autopistol as a backup?  Sure, but life doesn't always allow it, and even if it did, would you tolerate the hassle for such a small percentage problem? 

    Therefore, I have a CAT in my vehicles and range bag, the RAT + Compression bandage in my uniform pants, and the SWAT-T + QuikClot bandage in my EDC packet.  The uniform and EDC are wrapped in a heavy duty elastic band that keeps them "relatively" slim (about the size of a wallet).  The RAT, for as small as you think it could wrap up, is actually surprisingly bulky (although way less then a CAT), so I have it wrapped around the periphery of a compression bandage for a package 5x4, and about an inch thick.   

    The SWAT-T is smaller, and honestly more useful because of it's printed instructions and the capability for it to be used as simple wide compression rather than a TQ.  It "moves" in a pocket, and is therefore more comfortable to carry.  In my pocket, it is in the same elastic paired with a Quikclot bandage, with a band sewed on to serve as a mag holder, which all fits into a back pocket.   

    It seems paranoid to carry a TQ or even medical stuff at all, but when you think about the crap we go through to "maybe" put holes in an attacker, it's not that far off to imagine yourself or a loved one being injured horribly, from everything from a Haji bullet to a car wreck.  You can't shoot your way out of a vehicle accident where your kid is suffering an amputation that's bleeding out. 

    Thank you for the input, I have yet to learn anything about the SWAT-T. I'll have to fix this and see if it might fit my needs better. If I can carry it in the back left pocket of my Wrangler's then that might just be the ticket.

    Is it bad that my first aid kit consists of a roll of toilet paper, duct tape, several bandanas and a screw driver?  :-[

    Not at all. Hell, before this conversation, mine has only had a Band-Aid, a stick of gum, and one bullet  :neener . On the good days the stick of gum cures most, if it is pretty bad (such as a papercut or the like) then the Band-Aid, and if things are really bleak...  :P .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #27 on: September 03, 2017, 11:20:28 pm »
    If I can carry it in the back left pocket of my Wrangler's then that might just be the ticket.

    At the risk of a fashion discussion erupting, that's precisely my pants de jour.  Back left with the SWAT-T, Quikclot, and Glock17/1911/Shield mag (depending on carry piece) is bulky, but not any moreso than a wallet.   
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #28 on: September 03, 2017, 11:44:30 pm »
    At the risk of a fashion discussion erupting, that's precisely my pants de jour.  Back left with the SWAT-T, Quikclot, and Glock17/1911/Shield mag (depending on carry piece) is bulky, but not any moreso than a wallet.

    I'm definitely going to do research on this then, when I get the chance  :thumbup1. I can live with something the size of a bulky wallet, as my own wallet is like 2 inches thick. I think this is a large part of the reason that Luke made his slim carry wallet, cos I never clean out the damn thing. I still think I have my High School ID and maybe even an expired driver's license still in there :hide .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    21B

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #29 on: September 04, 2017, 01:16:24 am »
    I like the SWAT-T for its versatility, but try putting it on one-handed, it's bad enough applying it with two hands. Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.

    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #30 on: September 04, 2017, 09:51:38 am »
    I like the SWAT-T for its versatility, but try putting it on one-handed, it's bad enough applying it with two hands. Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.

    Oh...

    That complicates things then  :-\ .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    ETCss McCrackin

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #31 on: September 04, 2017, 11:01:48 am »
    Great for applying to another person, but a pain trying to apply it on yourself.

    Yeah, it's a bit of a hassle, and I can't even imagine what high stress and a covering of blood will do, but I feel that it's a decent compromise between function and everyday comfort. 
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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    bignate88

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #32 on: September 04, 2017, 01:50:11 pm »
    I'm carrying the swat-t at the moment just because it slides between my double mag pouch and my belt. there are defiantly better tq's out there but it comes down to being convenient enough to have it on me at all times. I prefer having a good but not perfect tq on me over a perfect one at home in a drawer

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    « Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:16:37 pm by bignate88 »
    IllinoisThere’s a story about a turtle and a scorpion. Scorpion is stranded on a river bank. Turtle sees this and asks Scorpion to get on his back and he’ll take him across the river. Scorpion gets on Turtle’s back and they go into the river. When they’re about halfway across, Scorpion stings Turtle. As Turtle is sinking, knowing they’re both going to die, he asks Scorpion "Why did you sting me, we’re both going to die?" and Scorpion says "It’s not my fault; it’s what I am."

    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #33 on: September 04, 2017, 02:14:01 pm »
    I'm carrying the swat-t at the moment just because it slides between my double mag pouch and my belt. there are defiantly better tv's out there but it comes down to being convenient enough to have it on me at all times. I prefer having a good but not perfect tq on me over a perfect one at home in a drawer

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    Very true, it's much like the pocket .380 vs full size 1911 argument.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    First Shirt

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #34 on: September 04, 2017, 06:17:56 pm »
    A paracord bracelet, and a sanitary napkin.  A ballpoint pen is nice, but not necessary.  What have I missed?

    Oh, and if it's for a bullet hole bigger than .25 caliber, a tampon works pretty well.
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    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #35 on: September 04, 2017, 09:59:40 pm »
    I would say no to the RATS. It is too skinny. On a skinny tq, the pressure required to squeeze the artery shut will also damage the tissue of the limb. CAT or SOFT-T Wide are wide enough. If you want something for your pocket, the SWAT-T is better than the RATS.

    Don't get a RATS.

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    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #36 on: September 04, 2017, 10:01:06 pm »
    A paracord bracelet, and a sanitary napkin.  A ballpoint pen is nice, but not necessary.  What have I missed?

    Oh, and if it's for a bullet hole bigger than .25 caliber, a tampon works pretty well.
    No offense, but no.

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    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #37 on: September 04, 2017, 10:15:17 pm »
    The tampon is an interesting debate, albeit probably not one for this thread. I have heard that due to their design they wick blood away and out of the body into the tampon, which is not really what you want.

    Personally, I'd rather just put telfa, then pack and stack bulk gauze until the bleeding is controlled. I find telfa fascinating, just because it doesn't screw up coagulation as badly as the gauze will. Ideally though, once you place it, leave it. Don't remove the stuff to check if the wound is still bleeding. If you think it's stopped bleeding, fine, it'll still be stopped in 30 minutes from now too if you don't mess with the dressing. "A checked pot never boils" and a checked wound never coagulates it seems.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #38 on: September 05, 2017, 12:01:16 am »
    I carry some suture materials in my pack for in the field along with some gauze/tape and the usual band aids etc.

    I have stitched up enough critters and family. That I am for sure not going into a doctor to charge me for something I can do. Plus if I am in the field and only need to slap a few stitches in some boo boo. There is no reason to not just do it right there in the field.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #39 on: September 05, 2017, 12:07:07 am »
    I carry some suture materials in my pack for in the field along with some gauze/tape and the usual band aids etc.

    I have stitched up enough critters and family. That I am for sure not going into a doctor to charge me for something I can do. Plus if I am in the field and only need to slap a few stitches in some boo boo. There is no reason to not just do it right there in the field.

     :thumbup1
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #40 on: September 05, 2017, 11:02:13 am »
    BOB has 4x4's, gauze, pressure bandages and Quik Clot.  My training has been to not do a tourniquet period, but we also operate on the theory that EMS will be along fairly quickly so we are trained to stabilize, apply pressure and wait.


    The tampon is an interesting debate, albeit probably not one for this thread. I have heard that due to their design they wick blood away and out of the body into the tampon, which is not really what you want.

    Personally, I'd rather just put telfa, then pack and stack bulk gauze until the bleeding is controlled. I find telfa fascinating, just because it doesn't screw up coagulation as badly as the gauze will. Ideally though, once you place it, leave it. Don't remove the stuff to check if the wound is still bleeding. If you think it's stopped bleeding, fine, it'll still be stopped in 30 minutes from now too if you don't mess with the dressing. "A checked pot never boils" and a checked wound never coagulates it seems.
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    LowKey

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #41 on: September 05, 2017, 11:38:46 am »
    BOB has 4x4's, gauze, pressure bandages and Quik Clot.  My training has been to not do a tourniquet period, but we also operate on the theory that EMS will be along fairly quickly so we are trained to stabilize, apply pressure and wait.
    Chief,
    Not trying to poo-poo on your training, but if you have any say so in it please push for more up to date protocols.  Aside from properly applied TQ's not being as much a risk for tissue damage as had been thought before, it speeds up things when you can slap one on and move onto to other urgent issues rather than remaining focused on applying pressure and whatnot.   Especially if EMS will be along shortly to transport to higher care.

    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #42 on: September 05, 2017, 12:33:45 pm »
    Basic EMT procedure is a pressure bandage, then TQ if bleeding continues. I would say if it just bleeding, bandage it. If it is dumping out, then tq

    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #43 on: September 05, 2017, 01:18:51 pm »
    Chief,
    Not trying to poo-poo on your training, but if you have any say so in it please push for more up to date protocols.  Aside from properly applied TQ's not being as much a risk for tissue damage as had been thought before, it speeds up things when you can slap one on and move onto to other urgent issues rather than remaining focused on applying pressure and whatnot.   Especially if EMS will be along shortly to transport to higher care.

    I've witnessed one 'accident' where I needed to stop bleeding and it wasn't arterial. Even just being a steady ooze it took a couple of nurses and about 20 minutes of us taking turns applying pressure and elevation. Not to mention we went through a mountain of dressing. I was really surprised.

    I feel like this is similar to the calibre debate:

    TQ sucks because you will probably get tissue damage and maybe nerve damage if it is real bad (I've heard that this is why the RATS is a flattish cord instead of round, to avoid the focusing of too much pressure in a small area, as part of its design).

    Quik clot sucks because it makes emboli. You can survive without a limb, but getting a pulmonary embolus is one of the scariest things that can happen. It is so emergent that people can get them while in the hospital and still die  :shocked. Not only that, but there are instances of people opening their quik clot powder in too much of a hurry (after all it is during an emergency) and getting it in their eyes. Apparently that stuff eats eyeballs and causes permanent blindness  :shocked.

    I like the option of a TQ, better to have and not need and all that jazz. Sadly, we just don't have the technology to restore life as quickly as we can take it, and there are caveats with all of our limited healthcare devices.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    LowKey

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #44 on: September 05, 2017, 01:47:30 pm »
    I've witnessed one 'accident' where I needed to stop bleeding and it wasn't arterial. Even just being a steady ooze it took a couple of nurses and about 20 minutes of us taking turns applying pressure and elevation. Not to mention we went through a mountain of dressing. I was really surprised.

    I feel like this is similar to the calibre debate:

    TQ sucks because you will probably possibly get tissue damage and maybe nerve damage if it is real bad (I've heard that this is why the RATS is a flattish cord instead of round, to avoid the focusing of too much pressure in a small area, as part of its design).



    The risk of tissue damage is quite small, based on data built up over more than a decade in the GWOT. 

    You're spot on in what you noticed about the time and materials needed to stop a serious non-arterial bleeder. 
    Slap the TQ on a heavy bleeder, and move on to to other more urgent issues.   Like other casualties, or  bad guys still active.

    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #45 on: September 05, 2017, 02:21:22 pm »
    The risk of tissue damage is quite small, based on data built up over more than a decade in the GWOT. 

    You're spot on in what you noticed about the time and materials needed to stop a serious non-arterial bleeder. 
    Slap the TQ on a heavy bleeder, and move on to to other more urgent issues.   Like other casualties, or  bad guys still active.

    Ok, cool  :thumbup1. I haven't looked at that study, but I'm glad that it is small.

    Like I said, my tourniquet usage is minimal  :-[ . Other than the set guidelines of how long to leave it in place, they really haven't taught me much on the minimal/nonlife threatening damage caused by them.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #46 on: September 05, 2017, 06:11:45 pm »
    CAT is probably the most useful option, since you can apply it one-handed.





    The SWAT-T is about wallet-sized and can be used as a tourniquet or as a wrap for a pressure bandage. It takes some practice to get good at applying it to your own arm, but you won't bleed out as fast from your brachial artery as you will from your femoral artery. In my experimenting, you can hold one end in your teeth while you make the first wrap. Then it will stick to itself, and you can let it fall from your teeth while you stretch and wrap. In some of the 'hasty application' videos online, the SWAT-T can roll up or fold up, which can still work, but it is more effective if the tourniquet covers a wide surface area.

    If you get a femoral artery bleed, I was told you have about 30 seconds before you pass out, but you should be able to use two hands, and get it wrapped quick.




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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #47 on: September 05, 2017, 06:18:00 pm »
    If you aren't dumping blood, but just bleeding, consider a pressure bandage.


    MTK20

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #48 on: September 05, 2017, 07:04:15 pm »
    I'll have to watch all of these when I get the time, but thank you for contributing to my research!

    :thumbup2

    How portable it the Israeli bandage? Is it about wallet size as well?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Tourniquets for EDC.
    « Reply #49 on: September 05, 2017, 08:00:22 pm »
    I have 6 inch wide bandages, and they are a little big for a wallet pocket. It fits pretty well in a 5.11 cargo pocket, though. I would get the 4 inch bandage if I didn't have cargo pockets. It is also vacuum packed, and so it doesn't compress or squish very much, it is fairly rigid for what it is.

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