Information and Education => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: MTK20 on March 14, 2017, 11:13:32 pm
Title: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: MTK20 on March 14, 2017, 11:13:32 pm
https://youtu.be/M5O6JwY0GJ8
Urban environments and thug culture. Young men regardless of race use threats of violence, bluff, and puffed up bluster as tools for everyday communication.
I ask this question to our LEO's because I reckon y'all deal with it the most. The clip I shared is out of Detroit, but it very much so reminds me of my hometown. The obvious answer is to not go to those parts, but when the culture permeates downtown and that is where many of the businesses are, it can be next to impossible.
Here is my question: how do you deescalate and make it not be a fight over a young man's ego? Even better, how do you make yourself look like you're not a target to begin with, like someone who shouldn't be messed with?
The east side of Waco amazes me. It seems young men here will fight over a "dirty look" or even something as silly as a pair of Jordan's.
Don't get me wrong, now that I've moved, I've seen some good ol' boys fight over stupid stuff too, but the thug culture in Waco specifically seems like a contest of who can appear to be the most "hard" by increasingly violent and depraved acts.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Kaso on March 15, 2017, 01:44:43 am
You all know that I am not a cop, but I wanted to chime in.
Here is my question: how do you deescalate and make it not be a fight over a young man's ego?
Even better, how do you make yourself look like you're not a target to begin with, like someone who shouldn't be messed with?
I split the sentences apart so that they can be answered separately.
The first one is easy - By being a wuss. You don't do anything that would inflame another's ego, and if offense is taken anyway, you apologize, and then roll over and show your belly. In animal terms, you 'submit.'
The second is more complicated, because it requires you to *not* be a wuss. You have to look hard - not necessarily confrontational, but you need to look like more trouble than a fight is worth. You have to put off a certain vibe, because no one goes around wearing a sign that marks them as a hard ass. (Except maybe SLM, but he is allowed) ;)
In your personal situation... You actually read books on threat deescalation, so you likely know more on the subject than anyone here. As far as looking too tough to fight, forget it. I mean you, personally. Don't take this wrong, but from having read thousands of your posts here, many PMs, and a phone call, I think I've gotten a pretty good bead on your personality... You aren't going to be putting off that tough guy vibe any time soon. I am not even sure you should want to, because it is completely opposite to your caring, sensitive, and empathetic being.
So if someone is feeling slighted, you are probably going to be able to back out of it by playing weak. If they don't buy it, or if they or another think you are soft enough to harm... Well, then, that's why you carry a firearm.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Grant on March 15, 2017, 08:50:11 am
I'm going to echo what Kaso said. On both points.
#1, I've "whussed out" numerous times by not playing someone's ego game. I've actually gone further of being calm and "mellow" since I've gotten my CWP than I ever was without it, simply because the escalation would be deadly force.
I know what I'm capable of. I have no need to prove it and cause trouble. For the same reason I don't do Diesel D*** stuff with my pickup. I drive an older lifted Dodge diesel so you imagine the sort of "bros" who try to roll coal, beat me off lights, "race" in town,etc. I don't do it......period. I don't care about dick measuring and the consequences aren't worth it. When you have responsabilities, and/or knowledge of what happens you don't do it.
#2. That said, up until that point you "roll over" you look tough. And...like Kaso, I don't think you'll pull it off. Don't get me wrong, tiny, skinny guys "can" put off that vibe......I don't think you can. I say this from personal experience. I think you're a bit more all-around.....well....caring. That's not a bad thing but it carries over into day-to-day "aura".
Mine's gotten a bit more noticeably.....subdued ain't quite the right word, but tempered since I've joined the V.F.D. and assisted and cut people out of car wrecks in addition to the other fire incidents I've been in. I honestly and truly don't "care" about most people and can separate my caring/feelings when the need happens. An example being: I've shot pets that were suffering and it would have been more painful for THEM to go the vet, even if it had been easier for me.
We don't have ghetto's but we have Reservations around here with the same lifestyle. At the moment I'm a bit overweight, but 6' and 200 pounds. 5 years ago I was 6' and 150 pounds. I get a lot "radius effect" I guess you'd say. At walmart, whereas I use to have to step aside to keep from shoulder bumping into a young baggy pants man, they'll move out of the way now,etc.
P.S. That came off sounding overly Braggart/chest beating. Wasn't meaning it that way. It's just a certain acceptance of certain things changes how you interact with stuff.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: MTK20 on March 15, 2017, 10:15:58 am
I think the points made using the basics of feigned compliance than overwhelming self defense as a last resort are good points, but this population is interesting to me. Where most criminals don't want a fight I've seen them get paradoxically excited at either: 1. Someone who's just too weak. Too easy and 2. Someone who will fight them, in some instances I've seen them react like: "oh boy! A fight, a challenge!".
Granted every situation must be graded on its own individual level.
#1, I've "whussed out" numerous times by not playing someone's ego game. I've actually gone further of being calm and "mellow" since I've gotten my CWP than I ever was without it, simply because the escalation would be deadly force.
I know what I'm capable of. I have no need to prove it and cause trouble. For the same reason I don't do Diesel D*** stuff with my pickup. I drive an older lifted Dodge diesel so you imagine the sort of "bros" who try to roll coal, beat me off lights, "race" in town,etc. I don't do it......period. I don't care about dick measuring and the consequences aren't worth it. When you have responsabilities, and/or knowledge of what happens you don't do it.
#2. That said, up until that point you "roll over" you look tough. And...like Kaso, I don't think you'll pull it off. Don't get me wrong, tiny, skinny guys "can" put off that vibe......I don't think you can. I say this from personal experience. I think you're a bit more all-around.....well....caring. That's not a bad thing but it carries over into day-to-day "aura".
Mine's gotten a bit more noticeably.....subdued ain't quite the right word, but tempered since I've joined the V.F.D. and assisted and cut people out of car wrecks in addition to the other fire incidents I've been in. I honestly and truly don't "care" about most people and can separate my caring/feelings when the need happens. An example being: I've shot pets that were suffering and it would have been more painful for THEM to go the vet, even if it had been easier for me.
We don't have ghetto's but we have Reservations around here with the same lifestyle. At the moment I'm a bit overweight, but 6' and 200 pounds. 5 years ago I was 6' and 150 pounds. I get a lot "radius effect" I guess you'd say. At walmart, whereas I use to have to step aside to keep from shoulder bumping into a young baggy pants man, they'll move out of the way now,etc.
P.S. That came off sounding overly Braggart/chest beating. Wasn't meaning it that way. It's just a certain acceptance of certain things changes how you interact with stuff.
No offense taken on any of the above Grant... Except :scrutiny. Remember I also work in a people profession. The caring switch and the get "s___ done switch" get switched back and forth all day long. I definitely try to be as empathetic and nonthreatening as possible, but I still have people die on my floor, I still get s___ on, bled on, and I see people with fewer parts than they started off with, and things where they shouldn't be.
Mental toughness is a job requirement, as is compartmentalising. While I try to keep my sweet disposition, I am a very tenacious sob when it comes to advocating for my patients.
I'm not expecting 120 pounds of white guy with hipster glasses to come off as "hardened target" for a thug, but I do have some hidden attributes of grit ;).
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: ZeroTA on March 15, 2017, 10:18:25 am
How do you not get into a fight over ego, and how do you not look like a target? Same answer to both questions. As Kaso said, you've got to look like more trouble than it's worth. Now if you're not naturally intimidating, your best option is to be a ghost. Don't look like a simpering pansy...better to not look like anything at all.
Not that I'm a swaggering badass. Always been pretty fit, but thin. 6' 160. So I don't have the size factor. And I'm really pretty affable, so I don't look like a weary steely-eyed killer. I just stick to the strategy of "be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone".
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Plebian on March 15, 2017, 10:55:27 am
If you are thinner, and just passing through the area. Then appearing like a meth/crack head can let you pass by ignored.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on March 15, 2017, 11:01:18 am
I deal with those kinds of young men all the time. My way of dealing with them is multifaceted as follows:
1) Don't show the slightest intimidation but do so without without swagger. My attitude is that they can't do anything to me that I can't do to them faster and better. The only way you can do this without faking it is have solid skillz. Confidence comes from competence (and experience) and can't be faked. Street wise people can smell a fake immediately. With that confidence comes the ability to let them talk smack and walk away. What do you have to prove to a punk when its just bluster? Not a damn thing. Now let him lay hands on you and its immediate retaliation. No halfway BS. Go Wolverine on him. No body fluffing touches you and gets a free pass. No. Body. But again to do that you better be able to handle yourself. If you can't do that right now, learn how. No one pops forth from the womb knowing how. We all learned. Now it may come more naturally to some than others but hard work trumps talent every time.
2) Be the Quiet Professional until its time to give orders and then don't bluff.
3) Follow through on everything you tell them to do or that you are going to do. Tell them then, failing that, make them. But be able to make them. Again, never bluff.
4) Show respect even if they don't rate it. I call everyone "Sir" or "Mister" and look them dead in the eye. If I can help them, I will. My philosophy that I taught my rookies is to treat everyone like they are my brother or sister until they prove otherwise. Then sometimes even your brother needs tuned up.
All that said, sometimes you just can't talk successfully or deal with certain extra special people and they have to be taken to the ground hard. Once they are restrained though, you start back at step 4 and its "Stand up sir," etc. Often times once they are seated in the back of a patrol car and I can talk to them I will tell them "Look I'm trying to help you IF YOU will let me so chill. Being experienced in my town, there's a lot of people I can tell from past run ins that "You know me. I've always been fair to you so be cool and it will all work out." Then there's the perennial jackass that I have to tell "Hey you know me and you know what I'll do if you don't calm the hell down son."
In all I have disdain for punks like that and don't sweat them. Then there's the true predator (the 1%) and they ain't it.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Mikee5star on March 15, 2017, 11:09:08 am
I read this for dealing with drunk, irate, members of the public while a EMT and City employee. Everyone who works with the public and has the brains to realize what an ego is for, needs to read Doc Rhino. It ties in really good with how Sarge says to speak to people. Also it is a technique for backing off/deflecting with out being a wuss. But you have to have the brains to separate/turn off your ego.
Other than that go with sarge712.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: MTK20 on March 15, 2017, 11:12:59 am
I deal with those kinds of young men all the time. My way of dealing with them is multifaceted as follows:
1) Don't show the slightest intimidation but do so without without swagger. My attitude is that they can't do anything to me that I can't do to them faster and better. The only way you can do this without faking it is have solid skillz. Confidence comes from competence (and experience) and can't be faked. Street wise people can smell a fake immediately. With that confidence comes the ability to let them talk smack and walk away. What do you have to prove to a punk when its just bluster? Not a damn thing. Now let him lay hands on you and its immediate retaliation. No halfway BS. Go Wolverine on him. No body fluffing touches you and gets a free pass. No. Body. But again to do that you better be able to handle yourself. If you can't do that right now, learn how. No one pops forth from the womb knowing how. We all learned. Now it may come more naturally to some than others but hard work trumps talent every time.
2) Be the Quiet Professional until its time to give orders and then don't bluff.
3) Follow through on everything you tell them to do or that you are going to do. Tell them then, failing that, make them. But be able to make them. Again, never bluff.
4) Show respect even if they don't rate it. I call everyone "Sir" or "Mister" and look them dead in the eye. If I can help them, I will. My philosophy that I taught my rookies is to treat everyone like they are my brother or sister until they prove otherwise. Then sometimes even your brother needs tuned up.
All that said, sometimes you just can't talk successfully or deal with certain extra special people and they have to be taken to the ground hard. Once they are restrained though, you start back at step 4 and its "Stand up sir," etc. Often times once they are seated in the back of a patrol car and I can talk to them I will tell them "Look I'm trying to help you IF YOU will let me so chill. Being experienced in my town, there's a lot of people I can tell from past run ins that "You know me. I've always been fair to you so be cool and it will all work out." Then there's the perennial jackass that I have to tell "Hey you know me and you know what I'll do if you don't calm the hell down son."
In all I have disdain for punks like that and don't sweat them. Then there's the true predator (the 1%) and they ain't it.
Very well written and from someone with street experience, thank you :thumbup2 .
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: LowKey on March 15, 2017, 11:15:22 am
I can't argue with what Sarge just said, but here are a few observations of my onw that may echo or overlap his.
Don't bluster but don't act like a wimp either. Make direct eye contact, but at the same time politely acknowledge them so it doesn't come off as a challenge to their machismo. Be the one to initiate verbal contact if you think it's unavoidable. It may let you set the tone vice the thug making challenge to you that you'll have to one-up or risk looking like meat.
Also something else I learned a long time ago, telling someone that whatever they do for a living looks incredibly tough or complected and that you doubt you could do it seems to make people feel respected and inclined to look favorably on you...even if what you do is more difficult or perceived as more prestigious than their job. This concept may on occasion be of benefit even when dealing with thuggish types IF you can manage to get it across before things get confrontational.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Kaso on March 15, 2017, 12:17:24 pm
In all I have disdain for punks like that and don't sweat them. Then there's the true predator (the 1%) and they ain't it.
This brings to mind a thought once shared to me by a former inmate. "Prison is much more polite than jail." The logic behind it is that jail (county, local) is a place for small time offenders and those who have yet to be convicted. Guys, especially the wannabes and loudmouths all think they have something to prove - and to a point, they do.
Prison is for felons, and everybody is taught their place in short order. A high percentage of prisoners are those 1% predators. As well, he said that prison is a place where a lot of guys have nothing to lose, (lifers) so it pays to be polite and show respect. To this day, despite having spent 13 of the first 18 years of his adult life in prison, he is extremely polite. He can joke and jab with the best, but in normal conversation it is always, 'Please,' 'Thank you,' 'Excuse me,' etc...
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Plebian on March 15, 2017, 12:37:11 pm
Police are also interacting in a very different way than joe public with the 'thug' culture.
I know it may sound racist, but I always found 'thug' social interaction to be very similar to chimpanzee. Lots of noise, posturing and bluffing with the hope no one calls them on their bulls___ display of strength. IF you can cause your competition to leave the field without physical contact. It is a solid win with no cost. You also see the near instant group attack if anyone shows weakness and is visibly unable to fight. You also see near instant withdrawal if one side feels like it is 'losing'.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Grant on March 15, 2017, 01:28:16 pm
Police are also interacting in a very different way than joe public with the 'thug' culture.
I know it may sound racist, but I always found 'thug' social interaction to be very similar to chimpanzee. Lots of noise, posturing and bluffing with the hope no one calls them on their bulls___ display of strength. IF you can cause your competition to leave the field without physical contact. It is a solid win with no cost. You also see the near instant group attack if anyone shows weakness and is visibly unable to fight. You also see near instant withdrawal if one side feels like it is 'losing'.
That's actually a good way to put it.....
Equate it to ornery bulls/cows. 99% of the time it's a huge bluff, blustering act. Treat them wrong and then it becomes real. As Sarge said. Don't go overboard (IE, play their game of bravado). Act like you're un-worried, that's an intimidation all it's own, without the bluff/insult of actually challenging someone.
Sarge's advice is the best-written in the thread.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on March 15, 2017, 01:46:26 pm
Make direct eye contact, but at the same time politely acknowledge them so it doesn't come off as a challenge to their machismo.
Also something else I learned a long time ago, telling someone that whatever they do for a living looks incredibly tough or complected and that you doubt you could do it seems to make people feel respected and inclined to look favorably on you...even if what you do is more difficult or perceived as more prestigious than their job. This concept may on occasion be of benefit even when dealing with thuggish types IF you can manage to get it across before things get confrontational.
Very well put
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on March 15, 2017, 01:46:54 pm
Equate it to ornery bulls/cows. 99% of the time it's a huge bluff, blustering act. Treat them wrong and then it becomes real. As Sarge said. Don't go overboard (IE, play their game of bravado). Act like you're un-worried, that's an intimidation all it's own, without the bluff/insult of actually challenging someone.
Sarge's advice is the best-written in the thread.
thank you sir
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on March 15, 2017, 01:48:19 pm
Police are also interacting in a very different way than joe public with the 'thug' culture.
I know it may sound racist, but I always found 'thug' social interaction to be very similar to chimpanzee. Lots of noise, posturing and bluffing with the hope no one calls them on their bulls___ display of strength. IF you can cause your competition to leave the field without physical contact. It is a solid win with no cost. You also see the near instant group attack if anyone shows weakness and is visibly unable to fight. You also see near instant withdrawal if one side feels like it is 'losing'.
No it doesn't sound racist at all. I mostly deal with white and Native American thugs and its universal.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: coelacanth on March 15, 2017, 02:38:01 pm
I agree. sarge712 nailed it. :thumbup1 I was waiting for one of our LEO's to chime in and he did not dissapoint.
I think the points made using the basics of feigned compliance than overwhelming self defense as a last resort are good points, but this population is interesting to me. Where most criminals don't want a fight I've seen them get paradoxically excited at either: 1. Someone who's just too weak. Too easy and 2. Someone who will fight them, in some instances I've seen them react like: "oh boy! A fight, a challenge!".
Granted every situation must be graded on its own individual level.
No offense taken on any of the above Grant... Except :scrutiny. Remember I also work in a people profession. The caring switch and the get "s___ done switch" get switched back and forth all day long. I definitely try to be as empathetic and nonthreatening as possible, but I still have people die on my floor, I still get s___ on, bled on, and I see people with fewer parts than they started off with, and things where they shouldn't be.
Mental toughness is a job requirement, as is compartmentalising. While I try to keep my sweet disposition, I am a very tenacious sob when it comes to advocating for my patients.
I'm not expecting 120 pounds of white guy with hipster glasses to come off as "hardened target" for a thug, but I do have some hidden attributes of grit ;).
^ This is where I think you're beginning to understand both yourself and the world you live in. You can mentally shift gears when needed both in your profession and also in the rest of your life. Learn to recognize what's going on around you, how quickly a situation can develop and some basic conflict resolution skills and you're a long way toward avoiding one in the first place. If a physical encounter is unavoidable do the absolute most damage possible in the shortest possible amount of time. That means fight dirty. That said . . .
I have talked my way out of a lot more fights than I have ever been in. If it works at all it usually works spectacularly well in my experience. I guess I use a variation of the "Verbal Judo" technique referenced earlier but you have a unique opportunity given your profession: You can tell your opponent that you'd rather not have to shoot him or cut him because you don't really want to be putting his mangled a&& back together later at the hospital. :hmm That can either be taken seriously or as comic relief - either way you're still talking instead of fighting. :hmm
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: MTK20 on March 15, 2017, 03:15:42 pm
I agree. sarge712 nailed it. :thumbup1 I was waiting for one of our LEO's to chime in and he did not dissapoint. ^ This is where I think you're beginning to understand both yourself and the world you live in. You can mentally shift gears when needed both in your profession and also in the rest of your life. Learn to recognize what's going on around you, how quickly a situation can develop and some basic conflict resolution skills and you're a long way toward avoiding one in the first place. If a physical encounter is unavoidable do the absolute most damage possible in the shortest possible amount of time. That means fight dirty. That said . . .
I have talked my way out of a lot more fights than I have ever been in. If it works at all it usually works spectacularly well in my experience. I guess I use a variation of the "Verbal Judo" technique referenced earlier but you have a unique opportunity given your profession: You can tell your opponent that you'd rather not have to shoot him or cut him because you don't really want to be putting his mangled a&& back together later at the hospital. :hmm That can either be taken seriously or as comic relief - either way you're still talking instead of fighting. :hmm
Thanks coelacanth :cool. Talking is important. As Clint Smith has said we talk to a whole lot more people than we shoot, so we might as well get good at verbal deescalation.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: LowKey on March 15, 2017, 03:25:00 pm
No it doesn't sound racist at all. I mostly deal with white and Native American thugs and its universal.
Civilization has just given us surrogate behaviors to substitute for the older more direct and confrontational ones. Only logical that the less civilized, or those who choose to reject civilized behavior, will act out in the more violent and confrontational patterns that lower primates follow.
Humans are primates after all, and when you scrape off the veneer of civilization you see we act just like the other primates.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Chief45 on March 15, 2017, 04:15:53 pm
There it is. and I don't do this often, but I will quote his entire post in full cause it needs to be read over and over.
Your not there to fight, bluff or bluster. Your there to do your job and you are going to do your job.
My first Sheriff taught us and trained us in a hard school. Be polite, look em in the eye, speak respectfully. There will always be someone younger, stronger and faster. That's life. , But , If he hit you, he better be on the ground. if he puts you on the ground, he better be in the hospital. if he puts you in the hospital, he better be in the morgue.
Your not there to start fights. Your there to pick up the pieces, and if NECESSARY, to finish the fight.
But you have to be ready to deal with the situation, however it plays out.
You've all seen the guy, nobody generally messes with him. He's polite, quiet, holds doors open for people, lets the old lady go ahead of him in line, is fully aware of everything going on around him and he's the guy, old or young, that nobody messes with. just, don't.
car stop, 4 hispanic's in the car and I'm alone and they are burglary suspects, then my old mentor, my undersheriff pulls up. arrest all 4. investigator interviews them and tells me a piece of it later. We were gonna jump the young cop, but that old cop would'a killed us.
it's presence, it can't be faked. It kept me alive that night. It's served me well since. I did not have it as a young officer when I started out. I learned it along the way from good officers and teachers and from working in nasty circumstances. You have to, just be. I'm there to do my job. I'm not afraid of you or anything you might do. I respect you, I expect you to respect me and I'm not going to do something to decrease your respect for me.
oh yeah, one more thing Sarge.
(but hard work trumps talent every time) Hard work trumps talent if talent don't work hard. Fixed it for ya. :neener
I deal with those kinds of young men all the time. My way of dealing with them is multifaceted as follows:
1) Don't show the slightest intimidation but do so without without swagger. My attitude is that they can't do anything to me that I can't do to them faster and better. The only way you can do this without faking it is have solid skillz. Confidence comes from competence (and experience) and can't be faked. Street wise people can smell a fake immediately. With that confidence comes the ability to let them talk smack and walk away. What do you have to prove to a punk when its just bluster? Not a damn thing. Now let him lay hands on you and its immediate retaliation. No halfway BS. Go Wolverine on him. No body fluffing touches you and gets a free pass. No. Body. But again to do that you better be able to handle yourself. If you can't do that right now, learn how. No one pops forth from the womb knowing how. We all learned. Now it may come more naturally to some than others but hard work trumps talent every time.
2) Be the Quiet Professional until its time to give orders and then don't bluff.
3) Follow through on everything you tell them to do or that you are going to do. Tell them then, failing that, make them. But be able to make them. Again, never bluff.
4) Show respect even if they don't rate it. I call everyone "Sir" or "Mister" and look them dead in the eye. If I can help them, I will. My philosophy that I taught my rookies is to treat everyone like they are my brother or sister until they prove otherwise. Then sometimes even your brother needs tuned up.
All that said, sometimes you just can't talk successfully or deal with certain extra special people and they have to be taken to the ground hard. Once they are restrained though, you start back at step 4 and its "Stand up sir," etc. Often times once they are seated in the back of a patrol car and I can talk to them I will tell them "Look I'm trying to help you IF YOU will let me so chill. Being experienced in my town, there's a lot of people I can tell from past run ins that "You know me. I've always been fair to you so be cool and it will all work out." Then there's the perennial jackass that I have to tell "Hey you know me and you know what I'll do if you don't calm the hell down son."
In all I have disdain for punks like that and don't sweat them. Then there's the true predator (the 1%) and they ain't it.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Plebian on March 15, 2017, 05:24:03 pm
Civilization has just given us surrogate behaviors to substitute for the older more direct and confrontational ones. Only logical that the less civilized, or those who choose to reject civilized behavior, will act out in the more violent and confrontational patterns that lower primates follow.
Humans are primates after all, and when you scrape off the veneer of civilization you see we act just like the other primates.
I really do not see it as civilized versus uncivilized.
The young male behavior associated with thugs mimics low status non-breeding young males in chimpanzee troops.
The high status breeding males of a chimpanzee troop show a marked difference in behavior from the younger males. They are really no less violent just the violence has less 'show' beforehand and it is very keenly directed. The violence of the high status males also tend to end in injury to the members involved.
So it appears humans are basically acting out similar adaptive instincts.
Chief45 clearly points out there is a 'presence' of an individual that rings in your mind to just not F with him. So it clearly appears we have the same instincts as the chimps.
Perhaps civilization has given us more ways to act this instinct out, but it appears fairly similar to me.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: luke213(adamsholsters) on March 15, 2017, 08:06:12 pm
I will say as mentioned physical size can help matters, if you're tall and fairly muscular you've got a certain advantage in the look. Plus points for looking meaner than you likely are, but some of that is age, circumstances and just something you're born with.
I will say in my own case more often than not I come off as a pretty nice guy especially around here since it's a small town and I smile and talk with people. Even today I saw a car while I was driving to the doctors, and I noticed it had a nearly flat rear tire while I sat behind it at the stop light. They turned right onto a dead end street and I figured they lived down there or were going to be stopping. So I followed them to the house, stopped on the curb. Got out of the Jeep after waiting a few seconds to see if the person would get out of their vehicle and I could just yell out the window that they had a low tire. They didn't so I walked up to the car, keeping some distance, hands visible with a smile and a wave to be non threatening. And it was a younger gal who hadn't noticed me behind her, nor that I walked up to her car. She had her face in her phone and I knocked on the window lightly which probably scared here to death;) Didn't intend to, none the less she started rolling down the window some and I just said "hey I noticed you had a low tire on the rear left and wanted to tell you about it", and she thanked me and I went back to the Jeep and Sarah waiting and went on with my day.
Now that's me in my own normal space where crime and such is very limited, and in some scenarios it's very different but this is a nice area in town right near the college etc. Now when I was in the city, say DC or Houston I approached things very differently. And I'm not some sort of massive guy but I'm not small and I've noticed my face isn't quite as youthful as it once was. I can when needed give off a sort of vibe that says "leave me the hell alone", and I do that more often than not in the city. And it's worked well for avoiding situations, but I'm always aware of my surroundings and trying to avoid any sort of incident. That is far more important in my opinion, but when it fails it doesn't hurt to have a bit of the don't screw with me look. I should also say when I was younger I didn't have that look at all, as I've gotten older and put on a few pounds. I'm 6'2 and a bit taller in my typical cowboy boots, and I run between 200-225lbs, and as the weight went on it's not really in my middle it's more upper body from all the working with leather with my hands and arms, shoulders etc. I don't typically see myself as intimidating I still to a degree see the same guy I was 20 years ago, however my wife and others have commented in recent years that I am so I guess I'll go with their outside opinion.
Something else mentioned above was looking a bit like a crack head or something along those lines, and that can also work. Though it's been many years since I went into bad areas and such but that was somewhat what I did back in the day. I was a skateboarder, had grungy clothing and probably looked homeless more often than not. I wasn't, but it did work as a certain level of defense for that time in my life.
Likely in your case you're further ahead playing the "grey man" type of role and just not standing out and as the years progress you may find yourself in a different situation. However it's still the best advice to avoid those places and situations whenever possible, it's much easier that way;)
Luke
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Grant on March 15, 2017, 11:43:36 pm
You've all seen the guy, nobody generally messes with him. He's polite, quiet, holds doors open for people, lets the old lady go ahead of him in line, is fully aware of everything going on around him and he's the guy, old or young, that nobody messes with. just, don't.
Slightly of-topic but an example I have to say: I was with my best friend once, first time visiting his sister. Met her and her husband (visited them many times since). Anyway. First impressions: guy is wearing...I'm going to call them daisy dukes, soft voice and drinking bright fizzy drink. He says hi and shook my hand I immediately knew to NEVER **** with him. Literally three seconds and that's the first thing that flashed across my mind.
Turns out he's head of Montana's Criminial Investigation, 20 year veteran of the Great Falls PD, plays amateur hockey with guys 1/3 his age and has a presence unlike any person I've ever met.
I have utmost respect for him, consider him one of the best men I know and he could wear a pink leotard and every person in hearing distance would call him "sir". So it's not how one "looks", it's their presence.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: LowKey on March 16, 2017, 12:50:54 am
I really do not see it as civilized versus uncivilized.
The young male behavior associated with thugs mimics low status non-breeding young males in chimpanzee troops.
The high status breeding males of a chimpanzee troop show a marked difference in behavior from the younger males. They are really no less violent just the violence has less 'show' beforehand and it is very keenly directed. The violence of the high status males also tend to end in injury to the members involved.
So it appears humans are basically acting out similar adaptive instincts.
Chief45 clearly points out there is a 'presence' of an individual that rings in your mind to just not F with him. So it clearly appears we have the same instincts as the chimps.
Perhaps civilization has given us more ways to act this instinct out, but it appears fairly similar to me.
What I meant by my "civilized vs uncivilized" comment is that in modern civilized society we act out the same patterns of behavior without resorting to physical violence (the majority of the time). By and large our "high status males" use lawsuits or crush the business interests or careers of the object of their ire rather than beating the snot out of them. Same patterns of behavior, just a different type of force used.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: JesseL on March 20, 2017, 03:30:08 pm
:hmm I haven't consciously dealt with any of this since high school (20 years ago, holy crap).
Worst I've dealt with is the occasional panhandler who gets too close - tell them they need to step back and they always do. I wonder if I'm doing something right or if there just aren't many thugs that are that touchy here?
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: coelacanth on March 20, 2017, 04:19:35 pm
I dunno' man . . . you just got that " calm like a bomb, crazy white dude " vibe about you. :coffee
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: JesseL on March 20, 2017, 04:44:14 pm
:rotfl
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: coelacanth on March 20, 2017, 04:47:52 pm
:cool
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: MTK20 on March 20, 2017, 08:24:02 pm
:hmm I haven't consciously dealt with any of this since high school (20 years ago, holy crap).
Worst I've dealt with is the occasional panhandler who gets too close - tell them they need to step back and they always do. I wonder if I'm doing something right or if there just aren't many thugs that are that touchy here?
Funny thing is, with me going to a preppy high school, I never saw this behaviour until I graduated.
You step outside the class room and that academic veneer rubs off in a light wind.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: armoredman on April 06, 2017, 04:36:40 am
I deal with the worst of the worst my state has to offer, the bottom of the barrel, the psychos and the Death Row types. I do it by three simple words - approach determines response. I've had guys tell me that when they came off the gurney I was going down F***ing hard...and I asked mildly, "I didn't curse at you, why are you cursing at me?" That particular individual now regards me as one of the only ones who will actually listen to him. I've lost my cool in the past and found out it did nothing but make things worse. I've talked down disturbances with nothing but my mind and radio, and I've been in the middle of gas, punches and kicking "disturbances" when the verbal judo failed. They want to escalate and I want to deescalate, talking softly is one way IF they are still in the mood to listen. Avid profanity - it fuels what they rage on. Rule number one - never ever lie. Dealing with professional liars means like fear, they can sniff a lie. Honesty is 100% my job, which includes telling them I will use gas, I will use taser, I will use dogs, and they will not like it. They listen, because I tell the truth. I also follow through with what I say, good or bad. So how to deal with these "persons"? Quietly and professionally.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on April 06, 2017, 01:32:39 pm
I deal with the worst of the worst my state has to offer, the bottom of the barrel, the psychos and the Death Row types. I do it by three simple words - approach determines response. I've had guys tell me that when they came off the gurney I was going down F***ing hard...and I asked mildly, "I didn't curse at you, why are you cursing at me?" That particular individual now regards me as one of the only ones who will actually listen to him. I've lost my cool in the past and found out it did nothing but make things worse. I've talked down disturbances with nothing but my mind and radio, and I've been in the middle of gas, punches and kicking "disturbances" when the verbal judo failed. They want to escalate and I want to deescalate, talking softly is one way IF they are still in the mood to listen. Avid profanity - it fuels what they rage on. Rule number one - never ever lie. Dealing with professional liars means like fear, they can sniff a lie. Honesty is 100% my job, which includes telling them I will use gas, I will use taser, I will use dogs, and they will not like it. They listen, because I tell the truth. I also follow through with what I say, good or bad. So how to deal with these "persons"? Quietly and professionally.
Well said
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: coelacanth on April 07, 2017, 01:25:53 am
Agreed. That man may have the crappiest job in all of law enforcement. :facepalm
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Chief45 on April 07, 2017, 09:49:49 am
Agreed. I've worked a jail and that was bad enough. You could not pay me enough to work at Dept. of Corrections Inside.
Agreed. That man may have the crappiest job in all of law enforcement. :facepalm
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on April 07, 2017, 11:26:39 am
I agree. strangelittleman works for the North Carolina DOC and I don't see how he does it. I couldn't. Then again he's over the road and construction crews at his facility so he gets outside the walls a lot.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Kaso on April 07, 2017, 12:13:46 pm
Then again he's over the road and construction crews at his facility so he gets outside the walls a lot.
That should be a bit more tolerable, I would think. The guys who get to go 'outside' and do things are the 'good behavior' convicts, and they have a strong incentive to not lose their privileges.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: tokugawa on April 13, 2017, 01:05:20 am
I have no clue what I do or how I come across. Nobody ever messes with me. I am just a quiet guy in public. Tend to keep my mouth shut and eyes open. Probably a good idea since I can be a bit socially awkward and could say the wrong sort of thing. Maybe living on the street as a kid taught me something.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: dot4x4 on April 15, 2017, 07:46:55 pm
I don't know how I missed this. Sarge and Chief have said it better than I could have. I work with Juvenile's. Keeping your word at all times is the only way to do the job. Staying calm until you have to take some one down, then its on and its done as quickly and as efficiently as possible. You take them down hard and fast. Then an hour later when they finally calm down you apologize. You apologize and let them know it wasn't personal and that they chose what happened. And your memory of what they said, did and threatened you with has to "disappear". Each day is new and you treat them polite, professional and never bluff or lie. Working inside of a facility all you have is your reputation. I laugh when people tell me, "They're just kids, they can't be that bad". I have plenty of kids that don't care. Mix in hormones and a don't care attitude with youth as young as 12, (yes 12) up to 19 and it gets interesting at times. Gang members, numerous murderers, rapist, child molesters, arsonist you name it. And to make matters worse for me is the fact that I am one of the people rewriting our policy and procedures. Let me tell you, it is NOT fun.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on April 19, 2017, 08:58:58 am
Few things piss me off more than to have a situation well in hand and "THAT" officer shows up and all hell breaks loose because of him.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: LowKey on April 19, 2017, 09:09:25 am
Few things piss me off more than to have a situation well in hand and "THAT" officer shows up and all hell breaks loose because of him.
"THAT" guy isn't just in LE, he's everywhere. Sometimes I have more dislike for him that I do for the original troublemakers.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Chief45 on April 19, 2017, 09:40:37 am
Many, many years ago, working for the Sheriff's office (which had a firm but fair rep in the community) and we have a large gathering in the hood that is getting disorderly and starting to get hostile. SO gets the call cause PD is tied up elsewhere. We've got it handled, calmed down, talking to the folk and a couple of PD officers show up. one bails out, grabs his shotgun, racks a round and yells "lets take em". My former FTO (field training officer) was our lead officer and he was not impressed. PD wound up leaving rather quickly, we hung around for a bit.
I used to serve paper, subpoenas, civil process, etc. working that side of town by myself, talking to everyone, tracking people down, picking up on warrants, whatever needed doing. PD would not respond less than 3 officers over there. We had a solid rep, PD, , did not. They had good officers, but they had just enough of "those guys", that could turn a simple discussion into a race riot just by getting out of their cars. I was very fortunate that was the culture I started in.
"THAT" guy isn't just in LE, he's everywhere. Sometimes I have more dislike for him that I do for the original troublemakers.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: dot4x4 on April 19, 2017, 03:33:13 pm
Well put. Our latest Chief has fired or "retired" almost all of "that guy/girl". Really only a few left and they have learned at least a little bit. Or been transferred to other areas. One of my fondest memories was telling my Chief; "Nice to see you Sir, get out". After his eyeballs went back into his head :shocked I explained that I was the Supervisor on duty and with the incident I was writing up he needed to be "Unbiased and unaware" for WHEN it got to his desk.
He thanked me and then mentioned the two employees I was writing up by name. :bash That is never a good sign.
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: Chief45 on April 19, 2017, 04:55:13 pm
yeah, we "sorta" joke about our policy manual that has sections named for former officers. :whistle
Title: Re: ? to LEO's: Thug Culture.
Post by: sarge712 on April 20, 2017, 07:57:47 am
"...you can see a clear example of what not to do in a case like this if you'll look in Farva, section 3, paragraph two. Clearly those shenanigans were evil." :neener