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Author Topic: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.  (Read 9560 times)

MTK20

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Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
« on: July 08, 2017, 08:24:58 pm »
Just some thoughts I’ve been having lately, but it seems the older I get the more sense a BUG makes to me. Whether civilian or cop, we are always behind the reaction curve. I know that my attacker will not announce their presence, proximity, or that they are a threat until it is too late and they have every possible advantage in their favour and I am at every possible disadvantage.
I wish I could find the link, but Massad Ayoob said something along the lines of:
Quote
“A deadly threat encounter is not initiated on a range and with the words “shooter ready?”, but by someone saying, “what’s up, homie?” in front of a circle K.”

We don't have the luxury of the time, place, or what situation our attacker will put us in when it does happen.

Many of the CCTV footage that I have seen have involved a citizen getting charged to have their draw fumbled, they have been disarmed in a grapple fight, or they have been herded into a back room (with no window of opportunity with which to defend themselves) and have been disarmed that way



  .


I know that Clint Smith has advocated for a long time that the elderly wear an ankle gun because they most likely will end up being knocked down and fighting from their back and it is easier to lift an ankle to you and fight from your back than it is to get to the gun that is sandwiched between your hip and the pavement. Other instructors have advocated similar tactics with having a small gun in the off hand pocket because in the event of someone crowding your personal space, people instinctively will use their dominant hand to hold an attacker at bay as opposed to their leveraging arm.
I would like to point out two things:

1.   I never want to be without the ability to defend myself. If the assailant is robbing an establishment and pats down customers, I would rather have something to back up my primary. Assuming they rob me of my primary and take the items/money they want and leave, then no harm and no foul. Stuff can be replaced. If it is a different scenario where I am disarmed and then they decide to commit murder (like in Hi-FI), then once again, it is better to never be in a situation without the ability to defend oneself. Or at the very least to go down fighting.

2.   I don’t think the above situation will ever happen, but it isn’t the odds I am concerned about, it is what is at stake. We only get one life and so do those that we care about. I think Clint Smith said it best.



Quote
“You already know where you’re susceptible. If you park your car some place, do you look under the car as you walk up to it? Do you walk up from the back side and press the trunk to make sure that the trunk isn’t popped? Do you look in the backseat or do you just jump in the car and then go ‘oh s___, someone’s in the car with me!’ And people go ‘well I’m not going to live my life like that!’, Well then don’t. But then don’t be a whinin’ b____, ok, when something happens and your family gets murdered. I’m telling you it will probably never happen to you, but you  can’t guarantee it won’t. So it’s like insurance… People are not going to give you a break. So you have to be careful about it.” – Clint Smith

Quote
“The rationale of carrying a second weapon? Pretty much like the same reason we have a spare tire in our automobile, the same reason most of us carry more than one credit card, same reason none of us get up in the morning and figure exactly how much cash we’re gonna spend and put just that much in the wallet. You have to allow for emergencies.” – Massad Ayoob.



If you get an anti gunner in the jury will they hate you for carrying a second gun? Absolutely, they’ll hate you for carrying one gun.

Quote
“It doesn’t matter to the Anti-Gun Biggots what gun you carry.  They have never said “Oh, its okay, he only has a .380.”   In fact, they have tried specifically to ban small guns because they are more concealable.  Remember they made a run against Saturday Night Specials?  They don’t care.  That being the case, if you are going to get wet, you might as well go swimming.   Should you have to use your weapon, and you end up in a court of Law, they will make no distinctions regarding the size or type.  Or if you are in a store and lift your arm up to reach a top shelf item and someone sees the grip of your pistol. They call the cops no matter what it is and when The Bronze approaches you they don’t make any distinction either.  You are either legal to carry, or you are not.”

http://madogre.com/?p=5033

I feel that if one can, however, incorporate a BUG into their daily life, it makes sense for a realistic solution to a fatal (albeit statistically slim) problem. If we’re gambling off of the odds of needing a gun, then don’t carry one at all, I say. You’ll never need it. But if the question is how important is your one and only life and the lives of those close to you? Well, then the BUG might be viable answer. Especially for someone whose loved one’s do not carry, but deserve protection just as much as we do.

Just my two cents.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 09:40:06 pm »
    Small concealable firearms have always had a place in the overall scheme of things .  Your thinking is sound even if your back-up weapon isn't a firearm.  I carry a folding knife that I can open quickly with one hand because if it comes down to it and I no longer have my primary defense weapon somebody is either going to back off or get cut.   I have considered a pocket gun just because it carries more fight stopping potential than the knife in most cases. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Plebian

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 10:23:37 pm »
    Small concealable firearms have always had a place in the overall scheme of things .  Your thinking is sound even if your back-up weapon isn't a firearm.  I carry a folding knife that I can open quickly with one hand because if it comes down to it and I no longer have my primary defense weapon somebody is either going to back off or get cut.   I have considered a pocket gun just because it carries more fight stopping potential than the knife in most cases.

    It would be hard pressed to know if a gun or a knife was more effective at the range you engage with a pocket BUG. A knife may not instantly STOP a  fight, but it can damn sure disable limbs and functional ability of the attacker insanely fast at contact distances.

    It is an assumption I always made that anyone carrying a gun ALSO had a knife or two on them. Everyone I knew growing up carried a knife. I feel naked without one.

    I am always amazed at the folks that carry a gun, and have no other self defense training at all. A little bit of judo/BJJ is not that hard to train in anymore.

    Anyone that has fought at all knows everything gets really sideways, really fast. I just always make the assumption plan A to D is going in the crapper within seconds. So plan for backups for backups of your primary backup.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    coelacanth

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 10:31:59 pm »
    As you say - it all goes sideways pretty quickly in the real world.  The old saying, "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy" applies here.  I carry the knife because, well, I've always carried a knife.   :hmm   I can carry it places it is unlawful for me to go armed with a gun and I have no compunction whatever about carving a felon like a Thanksgiving turkey if it comes to that.   
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 10:52:42 pm »
    Now that I think about it, I carry quite a few implements. I have a victorinox farmer which has alwas been my camp, work, package opening, and cook knife. Lately it has been helping me mince a lot of garlic in the kitchen  :rotfl.

    I also carry a Cold Steel AK-47, a small canister of Sabre red pepper spray, and then my Sig P228 and S&W 642 for all of my daily travels.

    I feel both the Cold Steel knife and the 642 would do very well up close, but then again why not Both? Options are good  :cool. Besides, one must remember their limitations and I am a pretty small guy. If I was backed into a corner (and let's face it, the only reason I would ever stay and fight someone is if they cornered me or physically pinned me down. God gave me some pretty fast running legs and I intend to use them at the first sign of trouble  :cool), I am not sure how confident I feel trying to stab my way to safety, especially if it is against someone who is significantly larger than myself. I do know however that I feel pretty confident on stabbing my way to safety if the individual intending to do me harm has just eaten 5 rounds of .38 special  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 11:42:27 pm »
    Not everyone can be reasoned with but if it appears that there's going to be a fight and its going to be an ugly one some folks can be convinced to let you go with a carry out order of harsh language.   :cool
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Kaso

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 01:11:14 am »
    1.   I never want to be without the ability to defend myself. If the assailant is robbing an establishment and pats down customers, I would rather have something to back up my primary. Assuming they rob me of my primary and take the items/money they want and leave, then no harm and no foul. Stuff can be replaced.
    I hate that attitude.  'Stuff can be replaced.'  Sure it can, but why put yourself there?  If someone is threatening deadly force to take my property, then the only reason they should be getting it is if I can not physically protect it.  If I am not in a position to defend myself by neutralizing their threat. 

    I understand the position that 'life is valuable, and stuff can be replaced,' but I reject it.  My stuff, even just a handful of pebbles, is more valuable to me than the life of anyone who tries to take it from me.

    If I can not protect my property, then I don't deserve to have it, but if they try to take it, then they are taking their lives into their own hands, and I am exercising the human right to protect the fruits of my labor.

    To be clear, I don't get up in the morning hoping that today I get to shoot someone.  Just...  I don't cower.  I don't ask for anyone to assail me, but if they do they had better be right with God.  No one gets my wallet, no one gets my keys.  Period.
    « Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 01:38:36 am by Kaso »

    LowKey

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 05:39:07 am »
    I hate that attitude.  'Stuff can be replaced.'  Sure it can, but why put yourself there?  If someone is threatening deadly force to take my property, then the only reason they should be getting it is if I can not physically protect it.  If I am not in a position to defend myself by neutralizing their threat. 

    I understand the position that 'life is valuable, and stuff can be replaced,' but I reject it.  My stuff, even just a handful of pebbles, is more valuable to me than the life of anyone who tries to take it from me.

    If I can not protect my property, then I don't deserve to have it, but if they try to take it, then they are taking their lives into their own hands, and I am exercising the human right to protect the fruits of my labor.

    To be clear, I don't get up in the morning hoping that today I get to shoot someone.  Just...  I don't cower.  I don't ask for anyone to assail me, but if they do they had better be right with God.  No one gets my wallet, no one gets my keys.  Period.

    Once more I'm going to risk causing Kaso to have a cardiac arrest.   
    I full concur with his statement above.


    "Property is the fruit of your labor; the product of your time, energy, and talents." *

    When you steal my property you are stealing that period of time which I used to acquire that property, be it that I acquired the property by  building or otherwise making it myself or if I acquired it by working to earn money with which in turn  I purchased the property.

    If you try to take my time from me now, in the present, through the use of force you are committing kidnapping and I can ethically (as well as legally) use lethal force to prevent this.

    If you to take my remaining time in the future, by ending my life, you are attempting murder and I can ethically (as well as legally) use lethal force to prevent this.

    So why is it that you attempting to take my time, that spent in the past in exchange for my property,  doesn't legally justify my using the same level of force to protect it that is legally justified to protect my time in the present and future?   

    The legal arguments based on the idea that loss of property can be remedied through the courts and the legal system whereas it can not remedy your unlawful imprisonment or death is flawed.   Any LEO's out there care to tell me how often they've seen stolen property returned to the lawful owner in a timely fashion in comparison to how often the property is never recovered or recovered damaged beyond use?   

    Don't want to end up dead?
    Don't assault people and don't steal from people.
    If you can't grasp that we don't need you in the gene pool and your death will be an overall improvement to society and our species.


    *Bonus points to anyone who recognizes where this quote originates.


    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 10:49:26 am »
    Once more I'm going to risk causing Kaso to have a cardiac arrest.   
    I full concur with his statement above.


    "Property is the fruit of your labor; the product of your time, energy, and talents." *

    When you steal my property you are stealing that period of time which I used to acquire that property, be it that I acquired the property by  building or otherwise making it myself or if I acquired it by working to earn money with which in turn  I purchased the property.

    If you try to take my time from me now, in the present, through the use of force you are committing kidnapping and I can ethically (as well as legally) use lethal force to prevent this.

    If you to take my remaining time in the future, by ending my life, you are attempting murder and I can ethically (as well as legally) use lethal force to prevent this.

    So why is it that you attempting to take my time, that spent in the past in exchange for my property,  doesn't legally justify my using the same level of force to protect it that is legally justified to protect my time in the present and future?   

    The legal arguments based on the idea that loss of property can be remedied through the courts and the legal system whereas it can not remedy your unlawful imprisonment or death is flawed.   Any LEO's out there care to tell me how often they've seen stolen property returned to the lawful owner in a timely fashion in comparison to how often the property is never recovered or recovered damaged beyond use?   

    Don't want to end up dead?
    Don't assault people and don't steal from people.
    If you can't grasp that we don't need you in the gene pool and your death will be an overall improvement to society and our species.


    *Bonus points to anyone who recognizes where this quote originates.

     :hmm
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Grant

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 11:32:34 am »
    I hate that attitude.  'Stuff can be replaced.'  Sure it can, but why put yourself there?  If someone is threatening deadly force to take my property, then the only reason they should be getting it is if I can not physically protect it.  If I am not in a position to defend myself by neutralizing their threat. 

    I understand the position that 'life is valuable, and stuff can be replaced,' but I reject it.  My stuff, even just a handful of pebbles, is more valuable to me than the life of anyone who tries to take it from me.

    If I can not protect my property, then I don't deserve to have it, but if they try to take it, then they are taking their lives into their own hands, and I am exercising the human right to protect the fruits of my labor.

    To be clear, I don't get up in the morning hoping that today I get to shoot someone.  Just...  I don't cower.  I don't ask for anyone to assail me, but if they do they had better be right with God.  No one gets my wallet, no one gets my keys.  Period.

    I agree.  Also because it can quickly escalate from taking your stuff, to your life, in a matter of seconds.  If you had the chance to stop it before it came to that point......

    Also the fact our "stuff" has identifiers.    Thieves don't always just grab wallets, they know CC's, Drivers Licenses,etc. are often carried in extra carriers (like I do), containing important information about your lives.    Spare Keys?   A way into your vehicle to wait for you in the future (maybe).    That's a bit worst-case scenario but I think of it.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Kaso

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 11:37:41 am »

    "Property is the fruit of your labor; the product of your time, energy, and talents." *



    *Bonus points to anyone who recognizes where this quote originates.

    No idea.  I have heard part of it misattributed, but not worth confusing things with.

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 12:37:17 pm »
    I agree.  Also because it can quickly escalate from taking your stuff, to your life, in a matter of seconds.  If you had the chance to stop it before it came to that point......

    Also the fact our "stuff" has identifiers.    Thieves don't always just grab wallets, they know CC's, Drivers Licenses,etc. are often carried in extra carriers (like I do), containing important information about your lives.    Spare Keys?   A way into your vehicle to wait for you in the future (maybe).    That's a bit worst-case scenario but I think of it.

    My thoughts are if they point a gun at you with the stated intention of taking your stuff, they have already posed a deadly threat. That warrants being physically stopped.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 12:59:08 pm »
    Now that I think about it, I carry quite a few implements. I have a victorinox farmer which has alwas been my camp, work, package opening, and cook knife. Lately it has been helping me mince a lot of garlic in the kitchen  :rotfl.

    I also carry a Cold Steel AK-47, a small canister of Sabre red pepper spray, and then my Sig P228 and S&W 642 for all of my daily travels.

    I feel both the Cold Steel knife and the 642 would do very well up close, but then again why not Both? Options are good  :cool. Besides, one must remember their limitations and I am a pretty small guy. If I was backed into a corner (and let's face it, the only reason I would ever stay and fight someone is if they cornered me or physically pinned me down. God gave me some pretty fast running legs and I intend to use them at the first sign of trouble  :cool), I am not sure how confident I feel trying to stab my way to safety, especially if it is against someone who is significantly larger than myself. I do know however that I feel pretty confident on stabbing my way to safety if the individual intending to do me harm has just eaten 5 rounds of .38 special  :cool.

    When you are using a knife for self defense think more about destroying the function of the limbs and less about straight up stabbing.

    A stab to the gut or lungs may kill a fellow but it might take awhile. You can cause instant effects by severing tendons and support structures of the body.

    It is very hard to hold or use something if most of the tendons in your forearm are cut or the main head of attachment for the bicep or tricep is cut near the elbow. It is also very hard to pursue if you cut the tendons on the inside of the hamstring.

    Surely you have taken human physiology, MTK20. Think about where those main tendons are at near the surface and how you can cut them. A good arm drag with the left hand while severing the pectoral muscle from the arm with a blade in the right hand can change the outlook on a fight very quickly.   
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    LowKey

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 01:09:31 pm »
    When you are using a knife for self defense think more about destroying the function of the limbs and less about straight up stabbing.

    A stab to the gut or lungs may kill a fellow but it might take awhile. You can cause instant effects by severing tendons and support structures of the body.

    It is very hard to hold or use something if most of the tendons in your forearm are cut or the main head of attachment for the bicep or tricep is cut near the elbow. It is also very hard to pursue if you cut the tendons on the inside of the hamstring.

    Surely you have taken human physiology, MTK20. Think about where those main tendons are at near the surface and how you can cut them. A good arm drag with the left hand while severing the pectoral muscle from the arm with a blade in the right hand can change the outlook on a fight very quickly.
    This is real wisdom.
    Off the cuff, I'd say the best coach for a knife fight would be an ortho surgeon or a butcher. 

    cpaspr

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #14 on: July 09, 2017, 02:17:34 pm »
    "Property is the fruit of your labor; the product of your time, energy, and talents." *

    *Bonus points to anyone who recognizes where this quote originates.

    Well, I thought it was our own, The Norseman, from this thread "https://wethearmed.com/strategy-and-tactics/home-invasion-*graphic*/msg330671/#msg330671" (worth re-reading).  But his response there was an extension of the same mindset.

    I cheated and googled it.  I was wrong, so I won't be telling where it comes from originally.  So someone else who knows the correct answer without googling can win the bonus points.
    Oregon

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #15 on: July 09, 2017, 02:31:16 pm »
    When you are using a knife for self defense think more about destroying the function of the limbs and less about straight up stabbing.

    A stab to the gut or lungs may kill a fellow but it might take awhile. You can cause instant effects by severing tendons and support structures of the body.

    It is very hard to hold or use something if most of the tendons in your forearm are cut or the main head of attachment for the bicep or tricep is cut near the elbow. It is also very hard to pursue if you cut the tendons on the inside of the hamstring.

    Surely you have taken human physiology, MTK20. Think about where those main tendons are at near the surface and how you can cut them. A good arm drag with the left hand while severing the pectoral muscle from the arm with a blade in the right hand can change the outlook on a fight very quickly.

    I most certainly have  :D. I might not know much  ;), but I do know what makes the body go and what makes it stop.

    There seems to be a debate about knife self defense,however.

    I forget his name, but he teaches a muscle/tendon focus based training that relies on accuracy and the structural break down of specific body parts. Doug Marcaida also focuses some in this area too, but he studies Kali, which is just crazy  :shocked. He somehow manages to get in structural breakdown, massive haemorrhage, and manage to make it all look easy/"pretty" while doing it.

    There seems to be two schools of thought in the debate:

    Break the structure and the machine will break. Shot placement is key.

    and then

    Massive blood loss is key. two inches of penetration will beat 20 shallow slashes, always. The only realistic tactic in knife fighting is to sewing machine/piston stab.

    And here in lies our debate. While I know what important things to cut, I don't know much about knife fighting in itself. Is it realistic to hit a small, specific target? What are the odds you could get to it in a deadly encounter? etc. These are the questions I'm not sure of  :shrug.

    Similar to a handgun. I know if I shoot the assailant in the C6, they'll go down 100% every time, but am I really going to make that shot?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    LowKey

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #16 on: July 09, 2017, 02:44:42 pm »
    I most certainly have  :D. I might not know much  ;), but I do know what makes the body go and what makes it stop.

    There seems to be a debate about knife self defense,however.

    I forget his name, but he teaches a muscle/tendon focus based training that relies on accuracy and the structural break down of specific body parts. Doug Marcaida also focuses some in this area too, but he studies Kali, which is just crazy  :shocked. He somehow manages to get in structural breakdown, massive haemorrhage, and manage to make it all look easy/"pretty" while doing it.

    There seems to be two schools of thought in the debate:

    Break the structure and the machine will break. Shot placement is key.

    and then

    Massive blood loss is key. two inches of penetration will beat 20 shallow slashes, always. The only realistic tactic in knife fighting is to sewing machine/piston stab.

    And here in lies our debate. While I know what important things to cut, I don't know much about knife fighting in itself. Is it realistic to hit a small, specific target? What are the odds you could get to it in a deadly encounter? etc. These are the questions I'm not sure of  :shrug.

    Similar to a handgun. I know if I shoot the assailant in the C6, they'll go down 100% every time, but am I really going to make that shot?
    You're fairly bright. ;)
    Look at the low hanging fruit from both columns and get a good idea of which you'd be able to score a sufficient strike upon under real world circumstances. 
    Factor in targets of opportunity, as well as "get the f**k off me" targets while you're waltzing Matilda.   
    Life is messy, and going hands on will be messier without a doubt. Don't expect to come away clean and unscathed, just work towards having the ability of coming away with the capability of recuperating from the horrid mess rather than congealing and moving towards ambient room temperature.

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #17 on: July 09, 2017, 02:46:21 pm »
    You're fairly bright. ;)
    Look at the low hanging fruit from both columns and get a good idea of which you'd be able to score a sufficient strike upon under real world circumstances. 
    Factor in targets of opportunity, as well as "get the f**k off me" targets while you're waltzing Matilda.   
    Life is messy, and going hands on will be messier without a doubt. Don't expect to come away clean and unscathed, just work towards having the ability of coming away with the capability of recuperating from the horrid mess rather than congealing and moving towards ambient room temperature.

    Thanks, I try my best  :cool.

    Whether pistolcraft or knife play, every field of fire and every situation will be different. It's a case by case basis and we'll just have to go from there  ;).

    Well, I thought it was our own, The Norseman, from this thread "https://wethearmed.com/strategy-and-tactics/home-invasion-*graphic*/msg330671/#msg330671" (worth re-reading).  But his response there was an extension of the same mindset.

    I cheated and googled it.  I was wrong, so I won't be telling where it comes from originally.  So someone else who knows the correct answer without googling can win the bonus points.

    Well, after reading Norseman's reply again (cos I started the thread  :cool). I completely agree with him.

    Looking for every reason to not shoot someone, but in the end they are a victim of their own poor decisions. Hell, my goal in life is to save lives, not to take them. But as many of our LEO's already know, sometimes in order to save lives of innocent people, you may be forced to take the life of someone who is perpetrating violence against said law abiding citizens (whether that is your own family in danger or a public mass shooting incident). Now personally, I would prefer the option to never have to take anyone's life, but this world is no place for such naïve idealism.

    Sometime back, I was assaulted in my home town. I remember after it had happened I had a lot of thinking to do. I went back to that very thread that you posted a link to and I read and re-read that thread. Eventually I got myself sorted out, but I think my mindset was in the process of changing. Between the astute outlook of Jesse specifically in that thread and doing some soul searching, I don't think that violence is the absolute worst thing ever now. I have my mindset squared away.

    I guess I view CPR and pistolcraft on the same plane now. Both, while not a fun act, have the ability to do a whole lot of good if practiced correctly and responsibly.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #18 on: July 09, 2017, 03:03:36 pm »
    I most certainly have  :D. I might not know much  ;), but I do know what makes the body go and what makes it stop.

    There seems to be a debate about knife self defense,however.

    I forget his name, but he teaches a muscle/tendon focus based training that relies on accuracy and the structural break down of specific body parts. Doug Marcaida also focuses some in this area too, but he studies Kali, which is just crazy  :shocked. He somehow manages to get in structural breakdown, massive haemorrhage, and manage to make it all look easy/"pretty" while doing it.

    There seems to be two schools of thought in the debate:

    Break the structure and the machine will break. Shot placement is key.

    and then

    Massive blood loss is key. two inches of penetration will beat 20 shallow slashes, always. The only realistic tactic in knife fighting is to sewing machine/piston stab.

    And here in lies our debate. While I know what important things to cut, I don't know much about knife fighting in itself. Is it realistic to hit a small, specific target? What are the odds you could get to it in a deadly encounter? etc. These are the questions I'm not sure of  :shrug.

    Similar to a handgun. I know if I shoot the assailant in the C6, they'll go down 100% every time, but am I really going to make that shot?

    All fighting is the same. You take what is given for free, and make it as damaging as possible.

    I learned to simply use the knife to make your hand to hand more effective. For example, if I am redirecting your forearm with my hand anyway. Is there a way to use my knife to cut say the underside or topside of your forearm while doing so? You do not have to hit tiny targets. The knife is simply doing more damage while you do what is needed anyway. The example I used earlier of an arm drag while adding cutting action is another idea as well.

    I am not saying a good ole hardcore shanking will not work, BUT if you can shank while taking the other persons back it is even better. You might win the fight standing in the pocket between the fellows shoulders while stabbing away, but if you die a minute after he does. It is still a loss.

    Just like all fighting out there; get out of the pocket quick, use techniques if you can, do not over extend, try to not trade one for one and do as much damage as possible while you can.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    cpaspr

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 03:21:17 pm »
    Quote from: MTK20
    There seems to be a debate about knife self defense,however.

    There seems to be two schools of thought in the debate:

    Break the structure and the machine will break. Shot placement is key.

    and then

    Massive blood loss is key. two inches of penetration will beat 20 shallow slashes, always. The only realistic tactic in knife fighting is to sewing machine/piston stab.

    And here in lies our debate.

    Combining the two (and I admit to no real-life experience in knife fighting) would seem to work best.  My thought is that initially holding the knife such that the blade comes out the bottom of your fist, then angling it back against your forearm, serves several purposes.  1)  It allows you to have the knife in hand, without it necessarily being seen.  2) Having it in this position makes it harder to grab than if it's in a stabbing position out in front of you.  3) It prevents your wrist from being grabbed without the "grabber" getting seriously cut.  4)  If you do have to swing, the blade can be brought to bear in a rapid slicing motion, either in a crossing motion or an uppercut motion, either of which will draw serious blood from the assailant, hopefully allowing time for subsequent strikes, of either slicing or stabbing nature, as is deemed necessary.

    Just my 1.5 cents, worth what you paid for them.
    Oregon

    Plebian

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #20 on: July 09, 2017, 03:30:18 pm »
    Combining the two (and I admit to no real-life experience in knife fighting) would seem to work best.  My thought is that initially holding the knife such that the blade comes out the bottom of your fist, then angling it back against your forearm, serves several purposes.  1)  It allows you to have the knife in hand, without it necessarily being seen.  2) Having it in this position makes it harder to grab than if it's in a stabbing position out in front of you.  3) It prevents your wrist from being grabbed without the "grabber" getting seriously cut.  4)  If you do have to swing, the blade can be brought to bear in a rapid slicing motion, either in a crossing motion or an uppercut motion, either of which will draw serious blood from the assailant, hopefully allowing time for subsequent strikes, of either slicing or stabbing nature, as is deemed necessary.

    Just my 1.5 cents, worth what you paid for them.

    I like blade down in ice pick grip for working it into grappling purposes. You can also 'hook' with the blade in this hold as well. The cons to blade down are reach, it is a little easier to get disarmed with blade down and some blade mobility.

    I know many folks that teach knife fighting say to hold it blade up in a saber type grip. It allows for maximum reach and mobility of the blade while make it fairly hard to disarm.

    Both ways have been taught likely since long before history recorded it I imagine. If you have a blade over about 6 inches then saber grip becomes much more effective. Unless you are using it medieval style for grappling and in ice pick grip. 
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #21 on: July 09, 2017, 04:01:00 pm »
    So I'm going to circle back to the original question since I don't have much input on knife fighting etc, if I'm in a knife fight it's an extra bad day because generally that means I've either run out of guns or they have been taken off me or I've got the knife in my teeth since both arms are disabled;)

    None the less on backup guns, I've carried one allot though I will admit the last several years I didn't typically carry one. I almost always carry a large caliber gun and a couple mags, typically one of my 1911's and if it's a 1911 then it's two mags on the other hip. Not that I feel that's the end all, but the point is that it's not a mouse gun typically. There are times when I'll just carry my PF9 and a single spare mag, or the 44SPC snub with a single speed loader. But those days are very few and far between and seldom do I leave the woods with that sort of setup on.

    When I first started carrying a backup it was my P3AT in my left hand pocket, the main reason initially was testing my pocket holster design back then though quickly I figured out is was an easy carry method. Only real problem was I needed to move my phone out of that pocket and run a belt clip. The other perk I found was while filling my gas tank or any other casual situation I got in the habit of getting a firing grip on the gun while in the holster. Which with my testing on a timer meant that I could draw and fire around a half to full second quicker than if I had to get in the pocket for the gun and draw. Which made it even faster than getting my primary on my hip into play. So I called it my gas station gun for a while but I always carried in the pocket. When we moved back home and stopped traveling the gas stations I encounter now are much much better than say north Houston. So the need for a gas station gun faded a touch unless I find myself traveling outside of the area. Also I switched phones several times, and with these new bigger smart phones I have a hard time carrying them on the belt. They just seem so huge when in a holster on the belt, that I much prefer throwing them in my pocket. My right pocket doesn't work because there are other things in there, and I prefer to use my phone with my weak hand in case I need my strong hand. But also my right ear is far worse than my left, so I never talk with my phone to my right ear anyhow. Either way that changed my carry routine and I never really got back in the habit of carrying a backup gun. Other than stretches where I carried another gun IWB or OWB in various configs which I still do from time to time but generally only if there is a reason to do so.

    For those wondering why I'd need two rigs like that commonly I'll carry my 22lr 1911 cross draw for shooting squirrels outside the shop in the summer. I don't like just carrying the 22lr I feel unarmed, but it's super handy for plinking squirrels so I end up carrying both. Other times when there is a higher threat so to speak then I'll often carry two, but really I do my best to avoid those situations whenever possible. There has only been a very few of them over the years I couldn't avoid for one reason or another but in those cases I try to be as armed as possible.

    Either way, this week actually I've started again carrying a backup. Though not as regular as I used to, mostly because the rig is too new to get into my brain to remember to put it on in the morning. But I started carrying the P3AT on my newest ankle holster prototype. And while I'm not an ankle holster fan for a primary, it can make for a very nice backup gun platform. I think another thing I'm going to test which I thought of way back around 2010 is making a weak side platform for the ankle for carrying backup mags and other things I'd like to offload off the belt. Since ankle carry makes the one ankle feel heavier I thought it might also make walking a little more even, but I'm also always looking for somewhere comfortable to be able to carry more stuff as needed. So I'll test that, but so far I think carrying a backup will become normal habit again for me with the ankle rig, and it makes for an easy way to carry another gun day to day and it generally stays out of my way.

    As far as other guys carrying one, I always thought spare mags and even better a spare gun was a good idea. But first and foremost has to be mindset but having the right tools never hurts either;)

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, [email protected]

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #22 on: July 09, 2017, 04:38:05 pm »
    So I'm going to circle back to the original question since I don't have much input on knife fighting etc, if I'm in a knife fight it's an extra bad day because generally that means I've either run out of guns or they have been taken off me or I've got the knife in my teeth since both arms are disabled;)

    None the less on backup guns, I've carried one allot though I will admit the last several years I didn't typically carry one. I almost always carry a large caliber gun and a couple mags, typically one of my 1911's and if it's a 1911 then it's two mags on the other hip. Not that I feel that's the end all, but the point is that it's not a mouse gun typically. There are times when I'll just carry my PF9 and a single spare mag, or the 44SPC snub with a single speed loader. But those days are very few and far between and seldom do I leave the woods with that sort of setup on.

    When I first started carrying a backup it was my P3AT in my left hand pocket, the main reason initially was testing my pocket holster design back then though quickly I figured out is was an easy carry method. Only real problem was I needed to move my phone out of that pocket and run a belt clip. The other perk I found was while filling my gas tank or any other casual situation I got in the habit of getting a firing grip on the gun while in the holster. Which with my testing on a timer meant that I could draw and fire around a half to full second quicker than if I had to get in the pocket for the gun and draw. Which made it even faster than getting my primary on my hip into play. So I called it my gas station gun for a while but I always carried in the pocket. When we moved back home and stopped traveling the gas stations I encounter now are much much better than say north Houston. So the need for a gas station gun faded a touch unless I find myself traveling outside of the area. Also I switched phones several times, and with these new bigger smart phones I have a hard time carrying them on the belt. They just seem so huge when in a holster on the belt, that I much prefer throwing them in my pocket. My right pocket doesn't work because there are other things in there, and I prefer to use my phone with my weak hand in case I need my strong hand. But also my right ear is far worse than my left, so I never talk with my phone to my right ear anyhow. Either way that changed my carry routine and I never really got back in the habit of carrying a backup gun. Other than stretches where I carried another gun IWB or OWB in various configs which I still do from time to time but generally only if there is a reason to do so.

    For those wondering why I'd need two rigs like that commonly I'll carry my 22lr 1911 cross draw for shooting squirrels outside the shop in the summer. I don't like just carrying the 22lr I feel unarmed, but it's super handy for plinking squirrels so I end up carrying both. Other times when there is a higher threat so to speak then I'll often carry two, but really I do my best to avoid those situations whenever possible. There has only been a very few of them over the years I couldn't avoid for one reason or another but in those cases I try to be as armed as possible.

    Either way, this week actually I've started again carrying a backup. Though not as regular as I used to, mostly because the rig is too new to get into my brain to remember to put it on in the morning. But I started carrying the P3AT on my newest ankle holster prototype. And while I'm not an ankle holster fan for a primary, it can make for a very nice backup gun platform. I think another thing I'm going to test which I thought of way back around 2010 is making a weak side platform for the ankle for carrying backup mags and other things I'd like to offload off the belt. Since ankle carry makes the one ankle feel heavier I thought it might also make walking a little more even, but I'm also always looking for somewhere comfortable to be able to carry more stuff as needed. So I'll test that, but so far I think carrying a backup will become normal habit again for me with the ankle rig, and it makes for an easy way to carry another gun day to day and it generally stays out of my way.

    As far as other guys carrying one, I always thought spare mags and even better a spare gun was a good idea. But first and foremost has to be mindset but having the right tools never hurts either;)

    Luke

    I love my ankle rig and I am excited to hear that you are currently testing one out. Originally it was quite the learning curve for me when using it as they are not necessarily 'comfortable', but eventually you get used to it.

    I like ankle carry because it is the deepest carry method I have, printing even less than pocket carry for me.

    I do have a question though. I use a Galco ankle glove with the calf strap. Does your design have a calf strap option?

    Whenever I get some money, I have wanted to carry a Glock 26 on the ankle for a long time. I love my large revolvers as a primary and while 6 of magnum may not be the best, following up with an additional 11 of 9mm behind it (and a revolver speedloader as always) is no joke for a CCW set up.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #23 on: July 09, 2017, 05:01:00 pm »
    So the current version doesn't come with a calf strap and actually I think I've eliminated the need for it with this setup. Note likely I'll be building two versions one using neoprene and another using the more traditional leather/wool style. This prototype is a larger wider piece of neoprene with dual straps lacking a better term to tension the rig rather than the single on that Galco. No thumb break, but the rig rides such that the entire gun is in front of the neoprene where the galco the break etc rides above the line of the neoprene. So this design being wider almost incorporates the calf strap function but in a single piece, and it's got enough friction so far in testing that it stays put better than anything else I've tried.

    Otherwise it's not too far off existing designs out there, though I didn't do nor plan on doing wool with this one. Just neoprene, and thus far I don't think I'll need anything more for cushion though I will need to build more of them to test with other guns to know for sure. But I'm doing my best to make it less hot than the other ones I've tried, and I may also try some other materials for the strapping method to the leg. But right now neoprene while not perfect works pretty dang well. So there may be additional versions down the road as I find other options, but I do think the neoprene version(with a leather holster of course, the neoprene is just the leg wrap), will likely come out pretty soon pending I don't run into issues scaling it up to larger guns.

    G26 on the ankle may be a bit much, haven't tried it. But back in the day I did carry my PT145 on my ankle which is a bigger grip but otherwise very close. It was ALLOT of gun for ankle carry. I think myself probably if you can't pocket carry it, probably shouldn't ankle carry it, and the lighter the better;)

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, [email protected]

    MTK20

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    Re: Thoughts on Civilians and BUG's.
    « Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 06:00:29 pm »
    So the current version doesn't come with a calf strap and actually I think I've eliminated the need for it with this setup. Note likely I'll be building two versions one using neoprene and another using the more traditional leather/wool style. This prototype is a larger wider piece of neoprene with dual straps lacking a better term to tension the rig rather than the single on that Galco. No thumb break, but the rig rides such that the entire gun is in front of the neoprene where the galco the break etc rides above the line of the neoprene. So this design being wider almost incorporates the calf strap function but in a single piece, and it's got enough friction so far in testing that it stays put better than anything else I've tried.

    Otherwise it's not too far off existing designs out there, though I didn't do nor plan on doing wool with this one. Just neoprene, and thus far I don't think I'll need anything more for cushion though I will need to build more of them to test with other guns to know for sure. But I'm doing my best to make it less hot than the other ones I've tried, and I may also try some other materials for the strapping method to the leg. But right now neoprene while not perfect works pretty dang well. So there may be additional versions down the road as I find other options, but I do think the neoprene version(with a leather holster of course, the neoprene is just the leg wrap), will likely come out pretty soon pending I don't run into issues scaling it up to larger guns.

    G26 on the ankle may be a bit much, haven't tried it. But back in the day I did carry my PT145 on my ankle which is a bigger grip but otherwise very close. It was ALLOT of gun for ankle carry. I think myself probably if you can't pocket carry it, probably shouldn't ankle carry it, and the lighter the better;)

    Luke

    Is it too big? I wouldn't know, I've never tried it.

    I thought most cops switched from the 642 to the Glock 26 for ankle carry.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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