Author Topic: The "Israeli Draw" (Read 35432 times)

Khorne · « **Reply #100 on:** December 26, 2009, 01:11:47 pm »

sometimes it does come down to split second timing and I'd take every advantage I could get. In self defense situations, I still see no reason why a person wouldn't want a round in the chamber. There are too many variables already, why add racking the slide to it?

WeTheArmed.com

Vern357 · « **Reply #101 on:** December 26, 2009, 01:13:07 pm »

Quote from: JesseL on December 26, 2009, 12:41:51 pm

Do what you like. Hopefully it will never matter.

I'd just like to understand the reasoning. It just strikes me as being comparable to waiting until you see an accident coming to buckle your seat belt.

My reasoning is simple: I feel that the added protection against a negligent discharge outweighs the the advantage that having a round in the chamber provides.

I am aware of the strong arguments about proper training, good holsters, "know your weapon", "Buy a "good" gun. etc. Those are strong arguments,and in many situations trump the above (I do carry in condition 1 at times, but it is not be default). But for me, in my life, in my neck of the woods, and the job that I do and the places I go, condition 3 is in my opinion the better way to go. (But not the only way.)

This entire spat with LL got started a loooooooooooooooooong time ago when someone posted that condition 1 is the ONLY way to responsibly carry a pistol, and I disagreed. I disagreed with the ONLY part, not with the condition 1 part.

Kirktree · « **Reply #102 on:** December 27, 2009, 12:12:54 am »

Quote from: Vern357 on December 26, 2009, 01:05:25 pm

Every rational and "sensical" argument for or against condtion 1 vs. 3 has already been made 3 times over, both in this thread and in others. So yeah, it's pretty much the best I can do without repeating what has already been said.

Less you have something new?

(As an aside, its the old "I cant attack the argument so I attack the one making the argument" schtick.)

It's called a dead horse "Dude"

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

simply say
: put the stick down
that horse is dead :

seanp · « **Reply #103 on:** December 28, 2009, 10:23:46 pm »

What I think is really interesting about the movie and some of the comments that are posted is the assumption that we are going to see something happening in time to react to it - regardless of how you decide to carry or defend yourself. When the reality is that an event often happens and is over while we are still trying to process it and respond to it.

akodo · « **Reply #104 on:** December 28, 2009, 10:53:14 pm »

I read the first page and a half and didn't see this mentioned, bedtime is fast approaching so I don't have time to read the whole thing...

Anyways, I feel compelled to add that it is my understanding that the Israeli method was developed by Israel in it's earliest days when it was threatened on all sides and the arms it was able to procure for a lot of the citizenry-militia for everyday carry were a very, very mixed bag of designs as well as individual models of dubious safety.

The steps of:
#1 insert mag and carry gun on person.
#2 wait for a terrorist to show up and start shooting
#3 draw gun, rack slide, aim, pull trigger.

That's a great methodology that can be applied to ALL semiautomatics (except a rare few that have a toggle like a luger or a bolt like a ruger rimfire) even and especially to guns without drop safety hammer blocks etc.

And when you consider that there really isn't a built in idea of 'beat the terrorist to the draw' but more of an idea of 'the terrorist will probably manage to kill 3-4 before fire is returned, but at least he doesn't kill 10-20'

It is also my understanding that terrorist gunmen only being able to shoot a few people before he himself is dispatched is part of the reason why terrorists switched to human bombs.

Tony1911 · « **Reply #105 on:** January 08, 2010, 05:40:28 pm »

Quote from: Thernlund on December 22, 2009, 08:40:31 pm

I'm only pointing out the obvious, as George did... in this case, it didn't factor. He was a dead man no matter what.

I have to disagree here. Being shot does not automatically mean that you are dead. (Example: my grandfather was shot by the Russians. Twice. Grandpa's still around... Not so sure about those Russians.) Being able to effectively return fire, even after getting tagged, would have made it more difficult for the attackers to continue their attack, more difficult to get any more hits on him, possibly saving his life. (Or, like pointed out before, at least given him a honor guard at the gates of Valhalla.) A more effective response might have changed the outcome somewhat.

Thernlund · « **Reply #106 on:** January 08, 2010, 05:52:13 pm »

Mm... I don't think so. They had the drop on him. The first shot looked to be center-mass. Right away he can be seen clutching his chest.

But that's moot. As LittleLebowski pointed out, that wasn't why he posted it. You can clearly see the guy fumbling with the pistol. Even if he was a dead man, he was a less-than-prepared dead man. His method of carry might not have killed him (I contend that in this case it didn't), but it didn't help things either.

-T.

sohmdaddy · « **Reply #107 on:** January 08, 2010, 11:09:30 pm »

In this video, I think a Glock 18 would have been useful. I don't know if it would have saved him, though.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #108 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:57:45 pm »

Here is a video just put up on Youtube I found. It shows that a con-3 pull can be a fast as a con-1 pull. The video also makes it very clear that con-3 carry is only a option in a very limited number of specialist situations and the con-1 is best 90% of the time.

At about half way in the video - he draws (con 3), from concealment and fires 3 rounds in 1.75 seconds... not too bad.

By looking at the guy, he looks SpecOps of some kind so who knows the strange areas and circumstances he works in (or teaches people to work in).

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g
#

Thernlund · « **Reply #109 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:47:56 pm »

Zombie thread.

The last bit says it all I think. Even THEY who seek to show how fast it is don't recommend it. Pfff.

The question isn't why shouldn't you, the question is why SHOULD you? Can you do it? Sure! Knock yourself out. But why would you? It's another cog in the machine, another step to perform, another complication to work with.

-T.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #110 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:57:11 pm »

-T

Point of fact, they didn't recommend it for the 'average CCW user' but said it might be an option is narrow circumstances.

I'm sure in the squirrely work of covert or special ops, there are few circumstances C3 carry is advisable. But who knows; unless 'we' have been operational in every condition, everywhere in the world - none of us can speak with in finalities or absolutes.

The reason I posted the video here wasn't to advise anyone try it/or not to - only to show that several of the most common argument against it (i.e. not as fast) were inaccurate and to show that someone (modern western forces) does use the method albeit in a narrow since.

t/y

Khorne · « **Reply #111 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:01:31 pm »

it's a method to keep barely trained soldiers from shooting themselves or each other. Other than that, I can't think of a single instance I'd want it. Let's say it is just as fast (which I'm still not convinced of) it still adds an extra step and an extra step is one more thing to mess up when you really need to do it right.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #112 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:12:10 pm »

It was also created to teach a mass of people/soldiers one way of operating any automatic regardless of condition or model.

We can get dumb about this but I'm sure we could think of a condition where you MIGHT want C3:

Undercover, 3rd world, having to buy a gun from the local, back ally gun dealer of less then modern style or condition.... Working in native dress where it may not be possible to conceal it in 'normal' ways... working in very tight crowds where it might be taken from you or where you don't have a good holster...

I don't know but I doubt anyone would put any effort into it (or teach it to anyone) if there wasn't ANY need for it. Just because we can't imagine a situation doesn't mean there isn't one.

JesseL · « **Reply #113 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:20:13 pm »

Quote from: CJ.sfod on October 18, 2010, 06:12:10 pm

I don't know but I doubt anyone would put any effort into it (or teach it to anyone) if there wasn't ANY need for it.

I don't know about that. Plenty of folks have made good livings selling snake oil.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #114 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:33:35 pm »

Lol... good point - I have seen some dome sh*t peddled to over the years.

I don't think that is what these dudes are doing; if they are, they are peddling it to 1/10th of a present of professional operators by their own words. A lot of work if you were trying to make a name for yourself or sell 'training' to everyday people; which is where the money is.

Either way, the guy has skill and can draw from C3 faster than I can C1 (by a full second or so) so I'll give them that. To what market this is directed to is up in the air but my guess it is to blacktops types or something - again, who knows.

But again, I only posted it because I was looking into C3 carry and found it, as well as this thread (as old as it is) and I saw a reoccurring theme "it is only for armatures" or "it simply can't be as fast" etc etc. This video shows that it is as fast (faster than most people's from C1 draw) and that someone who is clearly not an amateur is doing something with it - for WHATEVER reason ?

JesseL · « **Reply #115 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:44:22 pm »

How fast can those guys manage an Israeli draw one handed? With wet or bloody hands? If their first round stovepipes?

Those are the things that keep me from considering it as a viable option.

Now there probably are some bizarre circumstances that necessitate condition 3 carry and an Israeli draw - but I think most people that actually advocate or regularly use it are doing so for all the wrong reasons.

Khorne · « **Reply #116 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:48:31 pm »

I don't mind a zombie thread if something new is brought to it, like this.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #117 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:56:09 pm »

Jessel

Your points are spot on - I don't know what they do one-handed or in the other situations you mention and it would be interesting to see if they address it.

I'm not likely to carry C3 but it is nice to know that if I ever find myself going to an area where I have to for some strange reason, someone has figured out to do it quickly with some precision.

I think they make it pretty clear that this method is ONLY for those bizarre situations and NOT for everyday people or circumstances.

I don't know if I agree with the 'wrong reasons' statement but I think it is always better to have a reason to do something then a reason not to. My guess is that they have a reason TO do it (some external issue) more than one of the 'wrong reasons' is all.

Sorry to dredge up an old thread...

luke213(adamsholsters) · « **Reply #118 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:44:57 pm »

Alright since I read most of this and wasn't even here for the first half I did still feel the need to post my opinion about condition 3 carry. I know it mirrors allot of people's but here it is.

I carry cocked and locked, if I pick up one of my handguns that's the condition it's in. If it's on the nightstand, it's cocked and locked. There isn't a reason for my chamber to be empty if there is a mag in the gun, unless I just finished shooting said mag, at which point I should be either reloading or deciding how best to club someone with a 1911 while running away(or drawing my BUG, I guess that works too). I don't need to handicap myself by adding time and additional training to my draw. So guys who train extensively can draw as fast as a normal person without this limitation? Who cares, if I spent that much time training I'm still ahead and I just can't see a reason for it. It seems to me that with most guns it's easier even under stress to remove the safety and fire the weapon(or with glocks etc, just pull the trigger), then to draw the slide back to the rear and let it slam home. What if your hands are sweating, or bloody or you find yourself without the grip strength or you accidentally slip causing the slide to come down early. What if that causes a malfunction because the round didn't feed. Just seems like allot of extra stuff to fiddle with. Also it begs the question of is your gun loaded? Did you chamber a round, or is it empty? If you find yourself loading and unloading your gun as a method, then you are bound at some point or another to find it either loaded, or unloaded when you don't expect it. Personally it's simpler for my guns to be loaded. If they are cases for transport, then they are unloaded and put away. If they are in "carry mode" they are sitting ready to go next to and above the bed(shotgun in same condition).

As far as children and safety with guns, it's easier to train them early then it is to maintain a completely safe environment(which is impossible with or without guns). I learned at a very early age how to handle and respect guns. There were loaded guns in my house my entire life, and I respected those guns and shot most of them frequently. I didn't show them off to friends and do stupid things with them, why? Because I knew what they were and what they did from an early age. Heck even if they weren't loaded, I knew where the ammo was, and how to load the gun at my will. Leaving an empty chamber wouldn't have helped.

I say fight the way you train, and in my opinion the only logical way for me to do that is with a loaded gun. All the time.

Luke

sohmdaddy · « **Reply #119 on:** October 19, 2010, 12:53:03 am »

Quote from: CJ.sfod on October 18, 2010, 06:12:10 pm

We can get dumb about this but I'm sure we could think of a condition where you MIGHT want C3:

Like Utah's stupid open carry law. If you wanted to carry a gun, you would have to practice the Israeli draw until your Concealed Carry permit arrived. Then you would practice just draw and fire. I like the draw and fire/condition one method because it seems like it's more instinctive to just start pulling the trigger when you are surprised by a lethal threat.

sohmdaddy · « **Reply #120 on:** October 19, 2010, 12:56:58 am »

And welcome to the forum, by the way.

CJ.sfod · « **Reply #121 on:** October 19, 2010, 03:43:53 pm »

Thanks, glad to be here!

I emailed these guys in the video yesterday just looking for some info, here is their reply;

_____

CJ

Thank you for contacting us in regards to the Mod. IMD video we placed on YouTube and for directing us to the forum in which it is being discussed.

We usually stay out of these "this is better than that" conversations but since you took the time to contact us, let me try to offer a brief explanation.

First off, we neither advocate nor recommend this type of carry or draw, not to CCW holders or professional operators. We are responding to several narrow requests from clients (private and government) who MUST carry in condition 3 for a number of reasons. Some of our clients have to because of strict regulations imposed upon them by host governments overseas or by their clients. We also work with government staff that must carry in very unorthodox ways, including a small pistol attached to a break-away neck chain, undercover whilst wearing a man-dress. As you can see, very strange and unique scenarios.

The Mod. IMD is only one part of a system of carry, draw, malfunction and tactics we developed for 'Tactical Con. 3" carry. We may or may not upload more videos showing other parts of the system.

This is not a "snake oil" ploy to garner attention. We would never entertain training anyone in this unless they have a very compelling and verified need to learn it. That means we will never attempt to market or teach this to your average CCW holder or gun owner - in fact, we offer no training at all to that market. We are a very small and narrowly focused provider. All of our clients work overseas (3rd World) and demand specific training to that end.

We placed the video on YouTube as an easy way of delivering the concept to clients overseas who ask specifically for a demonstration and wasn't really meant it to be wildly seen.

Thank you for your query and feel free to repost this email on the forum if you feel it will help to clear up and confusion.

Cestus Staff.
___

So there you go guys!

Thanks, CJ

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #122 on:** October 19, 2010, 10:33:15 pm »

Con3 Carry has it's place. I carry open all the time and as such, carry Con3. This method as shown here is exactly how I do it.

tire iron · « **Reply #123 on:** October 20, 2010, 04:29:20 am »

Quote from: GeorgeHill on October 19, 2010, 10:33:15 pm

Con3 Carry has it's place. I carry open all the time and as such, carry Con3. This method as shown here is exactly how I do it.

Condition 3 does have its place indeed. Here is where I see that these places are:

1. Mandated by law/regulation - here the carrier has no choice - the choice was made for him/her by the jurisdiction in which they live, their employer or other such circumstances. This leaves the handgun carrier with no option but to carry in Condition 3.

2. Mindset - some people are not comfortable carrying with one up the spout - and for them they are most comfortable carrying "chamber empty".

3. Risk assessment - some people's risk assessment is so low that they see no reason to carry in Condition 1 because the odds of needing to employ their handgun is so low as to be near zero. However I believe these are "closet" people from #2 category - a mindset issue.

It is my opinion that anyone that CHOOSES to carry in Condition 3 believes that Murphy is unaware of their existence. Since I *know* Murphy has a GPS lock on my location at all times - I *ALWAYS* carry one up the spout (unless I am bound by #1 above). I can see no reason whatsoever to carry a handgun for self defense purposes in Condition 3 unless bound by #1 above. One CANNOT guarantee one will have both hands available when the bad guy's determine it is "go time".

What I teach in my classes is this: "If you don't plan on carrying your handgun with a round in the chamber - don't carry it. Get more training, go the range on your own, dry fire at home - read the papers about crime - try and get your handgun out and shootable with one hand tied behind your back - do whatever you have to do to get your mindset to the point where you are comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. Until such time - leave it at home in the safe."

cheers

tire iron

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #124 on:** October 20, 2010, 09:09:30 am »

Quote

1. Mandated by law/regulation - here the carrier has no choice - the choice was made for him/her by the jurisdiction in which they live, their employer or other such circumstances. This leaves the handgun carrier with no option but to carry in Condition 3.

Kind of a big reason for a lot of folks here in Utah.