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Author Topic: The "Israeli Draw"  (Read 30539 times)

danalog02

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Re: The "Israeli Draw"
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 02:37:48 pm »
If a person has chosen the awesome liability and responsibility of carrying a loaded (chambered or not) firearm for self-defense purposes, then that person should have at least considered the conditions under which they might present that weapon in a self-defense/defense of another party scenario.  If I have pulled my gun it is only b/c I have 1) exhausted all other options of leaving or persuasion or 2) I have already come to the conclusion that there are no other realistic options but pulling my gun with the intention of using lethal force.  Time is a precious commodity you probably won't have much of.  Why waste it attempting to work a mechanical action under severe stress/adrenalin conditions?  Most of us civilians, unless previously combat veterans, have little to no concept of how we will react, pucker-wise, in that sort of situation. Firearms competition is the only thing that comes even close, which is why I recommend it so much to friends.  Take your carry weapon, your holster and enough mags and just see if they work.  If anything is going to jam or screw up, it's going to happen after the buzzer goes off and your well-thought out plan goes out the window.  Spend your time at the range getting to know your weapon and sight picture.  If you have such an old or potentially unsafe gun that carrying in condition one is not an option for you, get a new gun and practice, practice, practice.

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    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 03:03:21 pm »
    I think the Israeli draw was a lazy response to repeated violations of one of the most important safety rules.

    "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch."

    I carry in C-3 when the weapon is not ON me.  Meaning if it is in a backpack, fanny pack, or the center console of the vehicle.
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    Rigger

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 10:57:46 am »
    I have to go along with George's earlier post on Murphy's Law.  Have you ever short-stroked a semi-auto and had it go "click", when it was supposed to go "bang"?  You then have a steel, or polymer rock in your hand.  My CZ 82 is 1 in the pipe, 12 in the mag, hammer down and safety off.  I do not trust a mechanical safety enough to carry cocked & locked with a surplus, or new for that matter, handgun.  I'm an OFG, (old fat guy), don't run well, but hit what I aim at.  If I was so concerned with ND or AD, I wouldn't carry at all.  I've been shooting and handling firearms since I was knee high to a short duck, and in all that time had one ND.  Thank God I was by myself and the only thing hurt was a cinder block wall and a color tv. (and this was with a revolver). It is amazing sometimes that I survived my very young and stupid days.  But if I feel the need to carry a weapon, and I do.  Condition 1 all the way. :coffee
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    Skeptic49

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #28 on: October 28, 2009, 11:34:36 am »
    I think the Israeli draw was a lazy response to repeated violations of one of the most important safety rules.

    Actually, it was a response to having a load of different pistols and needing a standardized training system.  Early Israeli logistics made the WWII allies look very good in comparison.  They tried to standardize on 9x19mm but were not successful.  It was a long time before the Army could standardize their own weaponry, much less the militia, police, private security and individuals.

    Geoff
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    Ishpeck

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #29 on: October 28, 2009, 05:39:57 pm »
    I have a buddy who argues condition 3 to me all the time.  Says it's "safer."

    Nevermind that his daily commute is more likely to kill him than his Glock.

    Weapons should be ready to serve.  By the time you need 'em, it's too late to load 'em.
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    Thernlund

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #30 on: October 28, 2009, 06:16:39 pm »
    I carry in condition 5.  Slide in my left pocket, mag in my right pocket, receiver in the holster.

    :neener


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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #31 on: October 28, 2009, 06:19:59 pm »
    I carry in condition 5.  Slide in my left pocket, mag in my right pocket, receiver in the holster.

    :neener


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    Thernlund

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #32 on: October 28, 2009, 06:21:30 pm »
    Yeah... I do what I can.  It's for the children.


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    Irwin

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 12:55:05 am »
    If people insist on carry in con 3 then they hould maybe get a mak and one of these http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-equip_belts.htm

    M1911a1lvr

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 11:44:14 am »
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Israeli draw method. Its another tool in your tool box of skills. A lot of CCW'ers don't like to carry cond-1. I know 2 CCW'ers that carry that way and they are just as fast on the draw and engagement of a target as someone who does carry cond-1. It all boils down to personal preference. Me, I have all the confidence in the world in my weapons manufacturing quality. I don't buy cheap/crap guns, I believe that all guns are made to function properly, And if YOU the owner take care of them then they shouldn't fail. Yes, Murphy can step in and mess with your day, But how often do you think that will happen?. I have had failures of parts on a gun, But none of those parts were anything major. All your fire control parts/ safety  parts are made to withstand repeated use. Most of you will probably never even have to draw your weapon in self defense, Some have. Now when those of you did have to draw, The first thing on your mind wasn't "Oh man will me parts fail me now." I don't think so. If you practice the proper way and do different scenario shooting drills, for what might happen. Then you will do it with out hesitation when it does happen. I have had to carry my weapon on cond-3 for a security job, But the owner had just gained his bonded/armed license and he was really nervous about loosing it. He didn't have a real training regimen in place, when he got his licenses. It took about a month the get that training up and running. So cond-3 it was, Felt sorry for the revolver guys, He had them carry only 4 rounds in the cylinder, Hammer down on an empty chamber, and the next inline also empty. But we fixed that. He was very paranoid at first. After the training was conducted for everyone, He eased up a lot on his restrictions. Eventually he did provide us with company duty weapons, But that is another hellish story. At that point we had to provide our own weapons and duty gear. He went out of business a few of years ago, as the largest security company in the northern part of the state. No incidences of on duty shootings ever occurred.
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #35 on: October 29, 2009, 01:39:33 pm »
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Israeli draw method. Its another tool in your tool box of skills. A lot of CCW'ers don't like to carry cond-1. I know 2 CCW'ers that carry that way and they are just as fast on the draw and engagement of a target as someone who does carry cond-1. It all boils down to personal preference. Me, I have all the confidence in the world in my weapons manufacturing quality. I don't buy cheap/crap guns, I believe that all guns are made to function properly, And if YOU the owner take care of them then they shouldn't fail. Yes, Murphy can step in and mess with your day, But how often do you think that will happen?. I have had failures of parts on a gun, But none of those parts were anything major. All your fire control parts/ safety  parts are made to withstand repeated use. Most of you will probably never even have to draw your weapon in self defense, Some have. Now when those of you did have to draw, The first thing on your mind wasn't "Oh man will me parts fail me now." I don't think so. If you practice the proper way and do different scenario shooting drills, for what might happen. Then you will do it with out hesitation when it does happen. I have had to carry my weapon on cond-3 for a security job, But the owner had just gained his bonded/armed license and he was really nervous about loosing it. He didn't have a real training regimen in place, when he got his licenses. It took about a month the get that training up and running. So cond-3 it was, Felt sorry for the revolver guys, He had them carry only 4 rounds in the cylinder, Hammer down on an empty chamber, and the next inline also empty. But we fixed that. He was very paranoid at first. After the training was conducted for everyone, He eased up a lot on his restrictions. Eventually he did provide us with company duty weapons, But that is another hellish story. At that point we had to provide our own weapons and duty gear. He went out of business a few of years ago, as the largest security company in the northern part of the state. No incidences of on duty shootings ever occurred.

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #36 on: October 29, 2009, 02:39:31 pm »
    Sorry no.  WIth proper training AND PRACTICE there is no way someone can be "JUST AS FAST" with Condition 3 as with Condition 1.  Not going to happen.  Add in the aspect of 1 handed vs 2 and it's impractical and may get someone shot, and you give them, a freshly primed weapon. 

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 02:40:57 pm »
    Sorry no.  WIth proper training AND PRACTICE there is no way someone can be "JUST AS FAST" with Condition 3 as with Condition 1.  Not going to happen.  Add in the aspect of 1 handed vs 2 and it's impractical and may get someone shot, and you give them, a freshly primed weapon. 

      Agreed.  The "Israeli draw" is folks who aren't confident in their weapon's mechanical integrity nor their own level of training.

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #38 on: October 29, 2009, 06:59:15 pm »
    Quote
    Actually, it was a response to having a load of different pistols and needing a standardized training system.  Early Israeli logistics made the WWII allies look very good in comparison.


    This matches with my reading on the origin of Israeli carry technique.

    They were getting worn out WWII leftovers, and trying to build an effective army.  Pistol training was less than a very low priority. 

    Take a crate of mixed milsurp war production pistols, pass them out to newbies and train them in an hour.  No holsters, few extra mags, mixed caliber and action, little ammunition for training.  It suddenly looks like a good solution. 

    What I wonder is why someone with an option for good gear and training would choose tactics and practices developed to overcome minimal training and essentially defective equipment.  It seems like an adequate choice under limited circumstances.  That said, I won't reject your help when SHTF if you carry differently than me. 
    Washington"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But, in practice, there is. "
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    M1911a1lvr

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #39 on: November 03, 2009, 01:10:05 am »
      Agreed.  The "Israeli draw" is folks who aren't confident in their weapon's mechanical integrity nor their own level of training.

      The israeli draw method was and is meant for 2 handed use only. It isn't perfect but it does work.
    Vermont".45 ACP giving our enemies a chance to die since 1911."
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #40 on: November 03, 2009, 01:30:51 am »
    how often does murphy step in?  Just when you need him the least, like when you're drawing on a thug with a knife and you pull the trigger and it goes 'click.'
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #41 on: November 03, 2009, 09:08:03 am »

      The israeli draw method was and is meant for 2 handed use only. It isn't perfect but it does work.

    If it doesn't work with one hand, it really doesn't work, does it?
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #42 on: November 03, 2009, 11:17:22 am »
    I can't see how a two handed draw that doesn't have a round in the chamber could possibly be better for self defense.  As stated previously, you might have to be fending off the attacker with your non-firing hand.  If you couldn't rack the slide, you'd be SOL.
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #43 on: November 03, 2009, 11:30:43 am »
    I can't see how a two handed draw that doesn't have a round in the chamber could possibly be better for self defense.  As stated previously, you might have to be fending off the attacker with your non-firing hand.  If you couldn't rack the slide, you'd be SOL.

    Maybe if you had one of those Kabar pitol bayonets... :hmm
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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #44 on: November 03, 2009, 01:32:41 pm »
    how often does murphy step in?

    When he does, I shoot him before he can interfere because I was ready.  ;D


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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #45 on: November 03, 2009, 07:18:50 pm »
    That makarov holster thing is cool. It's the only way you should carry condition 3. Grab the gun and ram it and start shooting.

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #46 on: November 05, 2009, 06:18:55 am »
    Quote
    The israeli draw method was and is meant for 2 handed use only. It isn't perfect but it does work.
    It works IF YOU HAVE TWO FREE HANDS. If you don't, you're SOL. I'm not willing to wager that I'll have two free hands available when the balloon goes up. If you are, that's fine. It's your skin. But don't try to sell this as a good idea.

    Mike
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    LittleLebowski

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #47 on: November 05, 2009, 10:47:04 am »
    It works IF YOU HAVE TWO FREE HANDS. If you don't, you're SOL. I'm not willing to wager that I'll have two free hands available when the balloon goes up. If you are, that's fine. It's your skin. But don't try to sell this as a good idea.

    Mike

      I agree with this.  I put an ambi safety on my carry 1911 after being shot in my strong side arm. 

      The Israeli draw is for untrained conscripts and people afraid of carrying their weapons that don't understand the workings of their own pistols.

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #48 on: November 07, 2009, 05:45:02 pm »
    The Israeli draw is for untrained conscripts and people afraid of carrying their weapons that don't understand the workings of their own pistols.

    I'm quoting you on this.
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    Skeptic49

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    Re: The "Israeli Draw"
    « Reply #49 on: November 07, 2009, 07:36:33 pm »
    For many many years the US Army carried in condition 3.  Some folks became very good at using the old cavalry holster in a one hand cycle.

    Geoff
    Who carried that way a time or six..

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