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Author Topic: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.  (Read 6345 times)

MTK20

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Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
« on: May 17, 2016, 06:21:11 pm »


The hostage situation was jaw dropping to me. I thought that hostage situations were just something that cops dealt with.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Kaso

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 06:37:33 pm »
    I am curious as to why the subtitles are in Italian...  Spanish I could absolutely see, due to our large Spanish-speaking population, but Italian?  :scrutiny

    Kaso

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 06:43:07 pm »
    The main point of his video was 'don't draw on a drawn gun.'  To a point, he is right, but the example he sites is a uniformed cop who is trying to draw while going hand to hand with a perp holding a gun.  I don't see where the officer had much of a choice.  Priority 1 should have been to control the perp's weapon, but close second would be to draw and neutralize the threat.  The longer the hand to hand kept going, the greater chance of the cop getting shot, anyway.

    MTK20

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 06:54:29 pm »
    The main point of his video was 'don't draw on a drawn gun.'  To a point, he is right, but the example he sites is a uniformed cop who is trying to draw while going hand to hand with a perp holding a gun.  I don't see where the officer had much of a choice.  Priority 1 should have been to control the perp's weapon, but close second would be to draw and neutralize the threat.  The longer the hand to hand kept going, the greater chance of the cop getting shot, anyway.

    You and I agree. It's already a horrible, deadly situation. At that point it's like "fluff it, if I'm going to die today at least let it be with me attempting to defend myself."
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 08:38:45 pm »
    Always an easy to remember acronym, RCAT.

    Redirect
    Control
    Attack
    Take-Away

    Redirect then control then attack then take-away.

    Cop was in a bad spot to begin with there, but attempting to redirect and control the assailants weapon would of likely been more fruitful than just going for his own gun.

    This is where I think a more holistic approach to self-defense than most of the gun community has would be ideal.   
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 08:44:35 pm »
    Always an easy to remember acronym, RCAT.

    Redirect
    Control
    Attack
    Take-Away


    Redirect then control then attack then take-away.

    Cop was in a bad spot to begin with there, but attempting to redirect and control the assailants weapon would of likely been more fruitful than just going for his own gun.

    This is where I think a more holistic approach to self-defense than most of the gun community has would be ideal.   

     :hmm
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    booksmart

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 11:03:23 pm »
    This is where I think a more holistic approach to self-defense than most of the gun community has would be ideal.   

    *nods* The only answer to a bad guy with a gun is not a good guy with a gun, but a good guy with the brains and training to defend himself however he can.

    But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker very well.

    Kaso

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 11:38:53 pm »
    *nods* The only answer to a bad guy with a gun is not a good guy with a gun, but a good guy with the brains and training to defend himself however he can.

    But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker very well.
    The 'good guy with a gun' was originally applied to active shooters, and in those instances one would be hard pressed to name a better tool to stop the threat.  At the time, it was a quick and easy saying to counter the knee-jerk reaction to the shooting; the perception that 'guns' were the problem, not the solution.

    booksmart

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 11:48:52 pm »
    I know, but how is it any more logical to suggest drawing on an active shooter than it is to draw on someone who already has a gun drawn?

    It isn't*. 






    *Depending on what you observe in the situation.

    Kaso

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 12:06:17 am »
    I know, but how is it any more logical to suggest drawing on an active shooter than it is to draw on someone who already has a gun drawn?

    It isn't*. 

    *Depending on what you observe in the situation.
    The examples in the video answer pretty well: The uniformed cop who tried to draw while going hand to hand with a perp with an already-drawn gun got shot, while the off-duty (concealed carrying) officer who waited until the hostage taker turned away from him, bided his time and was able to neutralize the threat when the opportunity presented.  One used his head and prevailed, and the other made a decision under stress and it didn't work out so well.

    I guess we are not really disagreeing, so much as I am saying that in such a scenario, having training but not having a gun is useless, while you are pointing out that a gun without training is largely the same.

    Grant

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 12:07:41 am »
       I've thought about this before, as a good percentage of the time a concealed carrier will be behind the curve.        You need to think, and not automatically go into the "Draw and engage" mode.

        Been a few articles by Mas Ayoob on instances of this, and waiting a few moments for the gu8nman to be distracted, looking away, or occupied often will turn up.  If you're well concealed, your odds for survival are higher by waiting.   

     Heck, as much as we all don't like to believe it, sometimes the best odds are to not do ANYTHING.  gun drawn on you, your wallet is a helluvalot cheaper than your life.   And that's one reason I keep ONLY money in my wallet.   No credit cards and no ID, cheap handoff if someone was to take it.   I keep my Credit card and Drivers license and CWP in a separate card wallet in my shirt pocket.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    booksmart

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 12:32:37 am »
    The examples in the video answer pretty well: The uniformed cop who tried to draw while going hand to hand with a perp with an already-drawn gun got shot, while the off-duty (concealed carrying) officer who waited until the hostage taker turned away from him, bided his time and was able to neutralize the threat when the opportunity presented.  One used his head and prevailed, and the other made a decision under stress and it didn't work out so well.

    I guess we are not really disagreeing, so much as I am saying that in such a scenario, having training but not having a gun is useless, while you are pointing out that a gun without training is largely the same.

    Kinda, but I'm also saying that training *with or without the gun* is best - to be able to defend yourself whether or not you have the firearm at hand.  If that means the bad guy gets a water bottle or a beercoaster upside the head, so be it.

    Situational & Improvisational Awareness. Have it.

    MTK20

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 12:37:09 am »
       I've thought about this before, as a good percentage of the time a concealed carrier will be behind the curve.        You need to think, and not automatically go into the "Draw and engage" mode.

        Been a few articles by Mas Ayoob on instances of this, and waiting a few moments for the gu8nman to be distracted, looking away, or occupied often will turn up.  If you're well concealed, your odds for survival are higher by waiting.   

     Heck, as much as we all don't like to believe it, sometimes the best odds are to not do ANYTHING.  gun drawn on you, your wallet is a helluvalot cheaper than your life.   And that's one reason I keep ONLY money in my wallet.   No credit cards and no ID, cheap handoff if someone was to take it.   I keep my Credit card and Drivers license and CWP in a separate card wallet in my shirt pocket.

       

    Would you happen to have any of said articles on hand? Or ones that are a preferred read? (I.e. links)
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Grant

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 12:41:43 am »
    http://fmgpubs.com/store/products/ayoob-files-1985-2011/

    Worth purchasing, I haven't however plan on it shortly.  Also seen a couple articles here and there that weren't Ayoob Files articles.   All in magazines, none online I'm afraid.

       
     One instance was when a convenience store was robbed, a man was amongst the victims, carrying concealed but unable to draw.   The robber collected all the wallets and then ordered them all to walk into the rear cooler.    Already giving up his wallet, the concealed carrier decided that the only reason to walk them in the back would likely be to shoot them (robber was not wearing a mask/easily identified) and when the robber was distracted, pulled his 1911 and shot him.      By giving up his wallet without a fight, and not doing anything for several minutes, it caused the perp to let his guard down with the herd of sheep victims.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 01:01:03 am »
    Kinda, but I'm also saying that training *with or without the gun* is best - to be able to defend yourself whether or not you have the firearm at hand.  If that means the bad guy gets a water bottle or a beercoaster upside the head, so be it.

    Situational & Improvisational Awareness. Have it.
    Okay, got it.  Yes, the mind is the weapon - everything we use are just the tools.  Using the best tool for the job is ideal, and ideally you should know how to use it.

    Plebian

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 03:19:13 am »
    It is hard as a human to not want to grab the tool you have available.

    If you have a hammer. Then all problems look like nails. It may be said too much, but it is very true.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Chief45

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 10:21:46 am »
    all depends on the circumstances.

    If you "Can" wait, opportunity may present it self, you may be able to create an opportunity, some other factor may arise to take their attention.   
    That would be best case, in that it allows you to act first and puts them in react position.  your on the better side of the loop.

    If you "can't" wait, and believe your going to be shot regardless,  well,  I'm not going down without making my try. 

    If your in a situation where you are suddenly faced with an active shooter,  it does not matter at that point. 
    The active shooter already has their gun out and is, hence the name, actively shooting and killing people. 

    Oh, geee,  I don't have the tactical advantage, so I'm not even going to try . . . . . . . . . . .

    No.  I don't see any options at that point.

    You are going to be shot.

    Give it your absolute best and go for it.  Go For Broke.

    You Have Nothing To Lose in that specific scenario.

    Maybe all I'll have is a news report, obituary and some upset family,  but I'd sure as heck rather the news report said "I tried",  instead of, he was found with his pistol still in the holster.







    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    booksmart

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 10:38:47 am »
    Fair point.

    MTK20

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 10:39:38 am »
    all depends on the circumstances.

    If you "Can" wait, opportunity may present it self, you may be able to create an opportunity, some other factor may arise to take their attention.   
    That would be best case, in that it allows you to act first and puts them in react position.  your on the better side of the loop.

    If you "can't" wait, and believe your going to be shot regardless,  well,  I'm not going down without making my try. 

    If your in a situation where you are suddenly faced with an active shooter,  it does not matter at that point. 
    The active shooter already has their gun out and is, hence the name, actively shooting and killing people. 

    Oh, geee,  I don't have the tactical advantage, so I'm not even going to try . . . . . . . . . . .

    No.  I don't see any options at that point.

    You are going to be shot.

    Give it your absolute best and go for it.  Go For Broke.

    You Have Nothing To Lose in that specific scenario.

    Maybe all I'll have is a news report, obituary and some upset family,  but I'd sure as heck rather the news report said "I tried",  instead of, he was found with his pistol still in the holster.

    ^This.

    Being put in a life or death self defense situation is awful. I cannot imagine many scenarios where the criminal intent on taking life and causing harm will be "sweet" and give us much opportunity. You very well might be stuck between defending yourself and getting shot or complying with the criminals demands and still getting shot anyways.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 10:56:38 am »
    My good friend NC Trooper Shawn Blanton died on the side of I-40 after a failed fight to control his duty weapon.

    http://www.odmp.org/officer/19429-trooper-david-shawn-blanton-jr

    The audio from his in-car video revealed Shawn begged his murderer not to kill him. I loved that kid but I'll be double damned if I'll go out like that. He weighed approx 140 against a 300lb attacker so a physical resistance had failed. The problem is that he wasn't trained to deal with a gun already pointed at him. We all learned from countless re-hashes of Shawn's murder that it's better to go down swinging, shooting, cutting, what have you, just as Chief45 posted.

    I've made up my mind that if I'm caught behind the curve, I'm drawing and going for broke.

    I'm not counting on him becoming distracted or looking away. He may miss, hit me in the vest, just graze me, panic and run, who knows? I've already programmed my mind to go into it with a positive mindset and if nothing else, die with a gun or knife in hand. I've trained gun takeaways for years with the philosophy that if I'm close enough to touch it, I can own it. Lately, I've modified that to just grab the gun to control it from pointing in my face and shoot or cut the attacker. If he's too far away to grab it, action is faster than reaction and I will bet I can get a round or three off before he realizes it.
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    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Roper1911

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 07:47:51 pm »
    Talking with friends and instructors- in a drawn weapon situation where you are not the immediate target, sudden, eye drawing movements are your enemy. Yeah, there's a right way and a wrong way to draw, but if you are in the peripheral range, your fast draw is a billboard screaming 'trained person with a gun!" And that gets you shot quick.
    A slower, controlled draw, preferably after carefully withdrawing a bit to cover your waist will be better.
    Eg: convenience store stick-up, your in getting a drink after a hard day's work, and some waffle-head walks in and points a gun at the guy behind the counter. He can see you, but you have those lovely chest high shelves. You can draw in concealment using them, then get on target and terminate the threat.
    But Loony with a gun blazing away? Crack head pointing a shotgun at you? Go for broke, and get a move on. you should practice drawing during lateral motion. Move, draw, shoot, get in cover, keep shooting.
    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 08:04:41 pm »
    Talking with friends and instructors- in a drawn weapon situation where you are not the immediate target, sudden, eye drawing movements are your enemy. Yeah, there's a right way and a wrong way to draw, but if you are in the peripheral range, your fast draw is a billboard screaming 'trained person with a gun!" And that gets you shot quick.
    A slower, controlled draw, preferably after carefully withdrawing a bit to cover your waist will be better.
    Eg: convenience store stick-up, your in getting a drink after a hard day's work, and some waffle-head walks in and points a gun at the guy behind the counter. He can see you, but you have those lovely chest high shelves. You can draw in concealment using them, then get on target and terminate the threat.
    But Loony with a gun blazing away? Crack head pointing a shotgun at you? Go for broke, and get a move on. you should practice drawing during lateral motion. Move, draw, shoot, get in cover, keep shooting.
    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass.

     :thumbup1
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #22 on: May 19, 2016, 09:34:45 am »
     :thumbup1
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    JackCrow

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    Re: Reacting to an Already Drawn Gun: CCW's Behind the Curve.
    « Reply #23 on: May 19, 2016, 03:46:08 pm »
    ...If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass.

    I am stealing that!  :thumbup1
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

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