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Information and Education => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: MTK20 on November 01, 2019, 03:23:15 am

Title: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: MTK20 on November 01, 2019, 03:23:15 am
https://youtu.be/uDBv-Vo7B5M

Don't just watch this video, but examine the short list of examples he made at the end.

Personally, I've always thought a metal stick didn't sound so bad for personal defense. Granted, I think it's still illegal to carry them in Texas so  :shrug .
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: booksmart on November 01, 2019, 09:01:33 am
It isn't what I would suggest for the sole means of self-defense, but for getting clear and making space, it'll do the trick.
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: RetroGrouch on November 02, 2019, 01:28:49 am
He really doesn't explain his point. WHEN, exactly is it legal, and WHEN, exactly, is it effective?  If he is a former cop, he should be able to explain those two things, like he would if testifying in court.  And if he can't, that would explain why he is a former cop.
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: AZretired on February 27, 2020, 12:05:15 am
As a former cop and have carried and used an expandable baton on more than one occasion. I can say they are at least as effective as a wooden baton. They do have their uses and are effective if you use proper strike points and not just wale away.
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: coelacanth on February 27, 2020, 02:37:42 am
Did you carry an expandable as well as a standard baton or a PR-24?  :hmm
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: Chief45 on February 27, 2020, 09:57:16 am
I started out with a PR24,  still have it.  Love that tool.   Thanks to the Rodney King incident and CHP,  we quit using them. . .  :shrug.  Bad PR and my Sheriff at that time was worried about how it looked.

Went to the expandable batons,  ASP brand in my case.   Useful,  used several times.   Biggest single benefit was you always had it on your belt, so you always had an impact tool with you.  I actually went with the Louisville slugger version (36"),  just for the extra reach and impact speed at the tip. That was useful when using it as a "come along".    My officers still carry an expandable and it is useful,  In It's Place.   I did not watch that video, but I've seen and heard similar idiots over the years.   it boils down to,  trying to make a baton do something it's not designed for, when you should be using something else.

Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: booksmart on February 27, 2020, 10:13:57 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThrlTaPWO8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThrlTaPWO8)
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: coelacanth on February 27, 2020, 01:51:44 pm
I started out with a PR24,  still have it.  Love that tool.   Thanks to the Rodney King incident and CHP,  we quit using them. . .  :shrug.  Bad PR and my Sheriff at that time was worried about how it looked.

Went to the expandable batons,  ASP brand in my case.   Useful,  used several times.   Biggest single benefit was you always had it on your belt, so you always had an impact tool with you.  I actually went with the Louisville slugger version (36"),  just for the extra reach and impact speed at the tip. That was useful when using it as a "come along".    My officers still carry an expandable and it is useful,  In It's Place.   I did not watch that video, but I've seen and heard similar idiots over the years.   it boils down to,  trying to make a baton do something it's not designed for, when you should be using something else.


I guess the thing I like about the PR 24 type is its versatility.  Its not just a striking tool, although it excels at that as well.  Defensive tool, compliance tool or weapon against man or beast.   I was surprised to see my Dad's vet using one to help move cattle around for examinations and ear tags and such one fine spring day.  He said the ability of it to concentrate considerable force in a small area made it a valuable tool for handling animals that routinely scratch an itch on tree bark and barbed wire fencing. 
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: Plebian on July 19, 2021, 09:24:32 pm
I know this is a thread being risen from the dead, but after my session this afternoon at jiu-jitsu with some self defense sparring. It became clear that many folks are overlooking the pure defensive use of a singlestick/baton/walking stick. I am talking pure defensive, parrying incoming strikes, holding measure(distance), increased reach.

What training I have had in European martial arts completely switched the power dynamic. There are about half a dozen folks in the class that can tap me consistently while rolling, and I have no doubt would take me in a 'street' fight. They are just more skilled, faster and younger. A single nylon/foam stick about 2 foot long completely changed that.

I think with very little training a baton can change the dynamic of power completely. Even without the use of the weapon to injure(strike bones/head), the simple ability to parry off grips/strikes is incredible. The fact they have to close a greater distance to reach you also changes the dynamic of the fight.

I had never used the singlestick as a purely defensive tool before in class, but the thought had crossed my mind in the past so I implemented it today. My usual technique was simply to use it to strike key areas, but I think the original video is missing the key part of the baton in 'proper' use. I think our modern ideas on weapons are focused on their offensive use. You defend yourself with a gun by seriously harming the other individual. I always thought the police swords from the 1800s in England were really stupid, but I can see how basically any 'stick' type weapon gives anyone many more options from lethal to very non-lethal with very little training. 
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: booksmart on July 19, 2021, 10:04:58 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: coelacanth on July 20, 2021, 01:50:56 am
Points well taken.  A good, stout stick may not have been man's first tool but it was probably the second.  European use of the quarterstaff was old news when the Romans were dominant there.  Some form of baton or stick fighting is featured in every culture I am aware of for exactly the reasons outlined. 

Parry and counterstrike techniques are easier with lighter, shorter sticks ( think escrima ) but watching someone skilled in the use of a full sized staff is amazing.  I know this is a gun forum but ancient weapons have always fascinated me.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: Plebian on July 20, 2021, 10:14:51 am
Points well taken.  A good, stout stick may not have been man's first tool but it was probably the second.  European use of the quarterstaff was old news when the Romans were dominant there.  Some form of baton or stick fighting is featured in every culture I am aware of for exactly the reasons outlined. 

Parry and counterstrike techniques are easier with lighter, shorter sticks ( think escrima ) but watching someone skilled in the use of a full sized staff is amazing.  I know this is a gun forum but ancient weapons have always fascinated me.   :thumbup1

That almost every fencing treatise from Europe has the 'master' holding a quarterstaff while teaching, to defend himself from students with swords. Should be a sign of how effective quarterstaffs are in defense.

It only takes one session of fencing against someone that knows quarterstaff decently well to learn that sword vs. quarterstaff is a losing proposition for the sword. The staff has 2 striking ends, 3 parrying surfaces, and about 4 feet of reach on you without having a close range 'deadzone'.
Title: Re: Expandable Batons are Useless.
Post by: coelacanth on July 20, 2021, 12:55:28 pm
Exactly.  The physics are inarguable.  Parry/parry/ re-position - parry/counterstrike - all techniques with the quarterstaff can be adapted to ambidextrous use and I don't recall ever seeing a fencer capable of that.  Close in techniques using the ends of the staff can be devastating and the transition from defense to offense are often part of the same motion.  As you say, the sword is likely at a disadvantage against the quarterstaff assuming both opponents are reasonably skillful. 

I wouldn't trade my 1911 for one but as a historic footnote, when my great grandparents were travelling to and from the nearest town on business there was always a couple of tobacco sticks in the wagon along with a shotgun and maybe a revolver in a purse or pocket.  The tobacco stick is a about  1 inch square,  about 5 1/2 feet long,  and made of well seasoned, local hickory wood.  You could break one but you'd really have to work at it.  More than one copperhead snake met its end when that stick was picked up and more than one aggressive stray dog was taught the error of its ways as well.  The firearms were reserved for more serious threats. 

The trip to town and back was an all day affair behind a couple of plodding old mules and the road was a lonely, narrow affair through rolling, sparsely populated country for most of it so the means to solve any problems encountered were considered essential.