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Author Topic: Winchester model 12  (Read 2791 times)

Mikee5star

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Winchester model 12
« on: August 09, 2019, 05:50:18 pm »
I have the opportunity to acquire a couple of older model 1912s.  I am hoping that we have some experts here to give me some advise.

The one I really want is a 5 digit serial, made late in 1913.  Early model 1912s are all 20 ga with 25" barrels.  It is a field grade with full chokes and nickel steel barrel.  I would grade it as good condition, approximately 80% original finish with no obvious refinishing, no pitting, only minor surface rust, but a repaired butt stock with a modern recoil pad added. 

The other is a early 1916 12 ga field grade with 32" nickel steel barrel and full choke.  It has been hunted with hard.  I would guess about 60% original finish with some pitting on the receiver.  It has original wood that appears to not have been messed with except for addition of a modern recoil pad.

Owner thinks that taking the stocks back to original will add value back into them, what I read online last night is that stocks are often worth more than field grade guns.  He has not given me a hard price, told me to take them and figure out what they are worth and make him an offer.  He thinks if they were in very good condition they would be worth about $1000.  But he also thinks the 20 ga is first year, but Winchester only made 5800 in 1912.  16 ga and 12 ga production began in 1913 and they were first listed in their catalog in 1914.  They are old guns, but do they have any real value?  And how do I communicate this to a seller who I think has a inflated idea of there value?

I know that condition is King with collectable guns, but these are not mine so I am hesitant to post pics of them.

 
Alaska

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 12:40:11 am »
    I have a little personal experience with some of the later guns.  An uncle was fond of them and had one in 20 gauge and one in 12 gauge.  I got to shoot both as a young man and while they are really well made guns I never found either of them to be comfortable for me to shoot.  I think it was primarily a poor fit between me and the guns as Winchester sold something like 2 million of them over the production life.

    On the 20 gauge, if it is really an early gun it would have been fitted with a 2 1/2" chamber from the factory.  That was the standard shell length back then and if it has a 2 3/4" chamber it has either been modified at some point or rebarreled if it has the more modern 2 3/4" chamber.   A lot of the older guns were modified as the industry switched over to the longer shell standard but if it has been modified or rebarreled its not worth as much as an early, unmodified gun would be regardless its condition otherwise.  Refinishing the wood might make the guns more esthetically pleasing to look at but if you're interested in collector value I'd probably leave them alone.  If they are shooter grade guns and destined to be shooters going forward suit yourself. 

    Prices on the model 12 are all over the map depending on what it is, when it was made and the condition of the gun.  Seems like even some of the ratty looking old guns of questionable lineage are bringing several hundred dollars though.  The owner is probably not too far off the mark for guns that are in "VERY GOOD" condition but it doesn't sound like either of these two really qualifies in that regard.  :hmm

    Hope that helps a little.  Maybe somebody else can weigh in and give you more to go on. 
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    cpaspr

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 12:39:36 pm »
    Did you double check the date of manufacture for the serial numbers?  Just asking, in case that 1913 date came from him rather than you looking it up.  Here's a site I found:  http://oldguns.net/sn_php/winmods.htm

    Oregon

    Mikee5star

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 03:32:03 pm »
    No I looked it up it is 30,xxx.  First year, 1912, production ended at 5800, second year ended at 32,418.  They built number 1,000,000 in 1946.  1,964,384 when mass production ended in 1963.  Special editions and limited production continued until 2006 giving it 95 years in production.  I have not found total numbers, but it looks like 2,027,000 and change were made by 1980. 
    Alaska

    Mikee5star

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 10:47:39 pm »
    I sent both back to the owner today.  I liked the handling on the 20ga, but was kind of blah on the 12ga.  I never found any 20ga in my collection of random ammo, and could not find my 12ga birdshot.  All I could find in 2 3/4 was slugs.  I think that my dad is going suggest that he find someone more into shotguns than us.  I figured they were worth about $600 to me.  I think it is realistic, but would be insultingly low ball to the owner. 
    Alaska

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 03:22:25 pm »
    Late to the thread.  I do have a soft spot for Model 12 shotguns, but not so much the very old ones.  I'd rather have one made in the 40's through late 50's.

    The only Model 12 I currently own is a mid 50's 12 gauge 3" magnum "Heavy Duck Gun".  It is completely original and in about NRA 90% or so condition.  It's a beautiful example, with the more desirable solid rib.  All I've ever done to it is rub a little boiled linseed wood into the wood.  I've owned this one since the mid 1970's.  This was the epitome of the duck/goose blind gun of its era. Super tight full choke pattern.

    They could be fired very rapidly for a pump.  If you hold the trigger down, it will fire every time the slide is pushed all the way forward and the bolt returns to battery.  That's not the most accurate way to shoot one, and not advised for shooting fowl at longish range, but it is fun.

    Good examples that have not been worn out or modified are hard to come by, but worth looking for.

    Forgive poor photography.



    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    coelacanth

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 11:45:19 pm »
    Beautiful old gun, despite your apologies for the photo.   :thumbup1   
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    MTK20

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 12:24:19 am »
    Our model 12 has worn bluing and some sort of twisty choke on the end  :shrug .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 12:26:58 am »
    Is it one of the old "Polychoke" units?    :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 03:25:44 pm »
    Is it one of the old "Polychoke" units?    :hmm

    Yes! That's the one  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    exiledtoIA

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 03:28:45 pm »
    I sent both back to the owner today.  I liked the handling on the 20ga, but was kind of blah on the 12ga.  I never found any 20ga in my collection of random ammo, and could not find my 12ga birdshot.  All I could find in 2 3/4 was slugs.  I think that my dad is going suggest that he find someone more into shotguns than us.  I figured they were worth about $600 to me.  I think it is realistic, but would be insultingly low ball to the owner.

    It's not lowballing if that is all it's worth to you.  The owner can either accept your offer or look for someone who places a higher value on the item.
    One of the reasons I have quit going to local gunshows is all the morons with vastly over inflated ideas of what their stuff is worth.
    Iowa

    Mikee5star

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #11 on: August 14, 2019, 01:17:13 am »
    It's not lowballing if that is all it's worth to you.  The owner can either accept your offer or look for someone who places a higher value on the item.
    One of the reasons I have quit going to local gunshows is all the morons with vastly over inflated ideas of what their stuff is worth.


    I liked the feel of the model 1912 action, I liked the history, I just already have three shotguns I don't shoot.  The real worth to me was more than what I could afford to pay, and more than the market value.  That is why I said it was a lowball.
    Alaska

    RMc

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    Re: Winchester model 12
    « Reply #12 on: August 15, 2019, 07:57:17 am »
    [quote author=Mississippi556

    The only Model 12 I currently own is a mid 50's 12 gauge 3" magnum "Heavy Duck Gun".  It is completely original and in about NRA 90% or so condition.  It's a beautiful example, with the more desirable solid rib.  All I've ever done to it is rub a little boiled linseed wood into the wood.  I've owned this one since the mid 1970's.  This was the epitome of the duck/goose blind gun of its era. Super tight full choke pattern.[/quote]

    Most fixed full choke barrels from the pre-plastic wad era, have actual choke constrictions equivalent to that of current extra-full choke tubes.
    Alabama

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