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Author Topic: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.  (Read 8259 times)

RMc

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Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
« on: August 15, 2019, 07:41:55 am »
It seems there is a retrograde move back to smoothbore only slug hunting areas. Perhaps this is in response to the increasing danger range of rifled sabot slug "shotguns."   

Do you think this trend will spread?   :hmm

For example:

COE Lavon Lake, TX
Feral Hogs: In Hunting Areas 6-13, Smooth Bore Shotguns (Slugs only) and archery

https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/47/docs/About/Lakes%20and%20Recreations/Final_Hunting_Guide_2018-2019.pdf
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 08:10:38 am by RMc »
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    booksmart

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #1 on: August 15, 2019, 07:56:20 am »
    Is it only for feral hogs, or will this affect other game?

    'Cuz I don't see that being good end result for the turkey...

    "Here's the left breast... I think that's the right wing over there..."

    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2019, 08:06:02 am »
    Is it only for feral hogs, or will this affect other game?

    'Cuz I don't see that being good end result for the turkey...

    "Here's the left breast... I think that's the right wing over there..."

     ::)

    I highly doubt there is any hunting area in the United States that allows, let alone requires, the use of shotguns slugs for turkey hunting.













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    booksmart

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2019, 11:29:00 am »
    It's a joke, run with it...

    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2019, 06:06:07 pm »
    It's a joke, run with it...

    Indeed so!   :whistle

    « Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:33:10 pm by RMc »
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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 06:29:19 pm »
    Sometime back I posted the estimated maximum danger range of several Winchester slug and rifle rounds. Here are those figures again:

    X12RS15- Rifled Slug, 1 ounce @ 1600 fps: 1,068 Yards

    X44MHSP2- .44 Mag. 240 gr. @ 1760 fps: 2,239 Yards

    X4570H- .45-70 300 gr. @ 1880 fps: 2,291 Yards

    SSP12- 12Ga. 385 gr. @ 1900 fps: 2,971 Yards

    Indeed, I expect some of the current sabot slug rounds exceed the figures shown.  Nonetheless, this type of information has lead to regulation changes in several states allowing rifles chambered for cerain straight wall cartridges.  Even the new Winchester 350 Legend cartridge is a response to this trend.

    I have long though a counter trend would develop with certain hunting zones in several states would begin to require smoothbore only slug gun zones and perhaps even buckshot only zones. Both of these "predictions" have come to pass in some limited hunting areas.





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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2019, 08:29:56 pm »
    The city of Montpelier, Vermont provides a reminder of this trend to limited range hunting arms.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 11:21:49 pm »
    Well, you are referring to lakes and surrounding land administered by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers so to that point it may well be a nationwide regulation peculiar to USACE administered areas.  There doesn't seem to be any talk of this kind of thing here that I am aware of and it would seem to run contrary to the numerous instances of recently re-written hunting regs that allow short, straight walled cartridges to be used in many areas.   :hmm
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 10:21:57 am »
    Sometime back I posted the estimated maximum danger range of several Winchester slug and rifle rounds. Here are those figures again:

    X12RS15- Rifled Slug, 1 ounce @ 1600 fps: 1,068 Yards

    X44MHSP2- .44 Mag. 240 gr. @ 1760 fps: 2,239 Yards

    X4570H- .45-70 300 gr. @ 1880 fps: 2,291 Yards

    SSP12- 12Ga. 385 gr. @ 1900 fps: 2,971 Yards

    Indeed, I expect some of the current sabot slug rounds exceed the figures shown.  Nonetheless, this type of information has lead to regulation changes in several states allowing rifles chambered for cerain straight wall cartridges.  Even the new Winchester 350 Legend cartridge is a response to this trend.

    I have long though a counter trend would develop with certain hunting zones in several states would begin to require smoothbore only slug gun zones and perhaps even buckshot only zones. Both of these "predictions" have come to pass in some limited hunting areas.







    I have a box of remington slugger HV (SPHV12MRS) that's 7/8ths at 1875fps and 2989Ft.Lbs with a max possible range of 1516 yards. at that range it's only moving at 218fps with 40Ft.Lbs
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    LowKey

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 08:29:19 pm »
    Just curious, but where do police departments get to make laws?
    Thought that was up to elected officials...
    The city of Montpelier, Vermont provides a reminder of this trend to limited range hunting arms.

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 11:03:32 pm »
    I have a box of remington slugger HV (SPHV12MRS) that's 7/8ths at 1875fps and 2989Ft.Lbs with a max possible range of 1516 yards. at that range it's only moving at 218fps with 40Ft.Lbs

    Interesting. What is the source of this ballistic information?
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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 11:25:07 pm »
    Just curious, but where do police departments get to make laws?
    Thought that was up to elected officials...

     :hmm

    Let's fire up the old search engine:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Montpelier Code of Ordinances

    Sec. 11-500. USE OF ARMS
    No person shall discharge or fire or cause to be discharged, or fired, any revolver, pistol, rifle,
    shotgun, air rifle, BB gun, or other similar firearm or weapon within the limits of the city of Montpelier...

    ...nor shall it apply to the use of shotgun, air rifle, or BB gun, by a hunter in the active pursuit of game,
    except that such shotgun shall not be used with ammunition containing a single slug, pellet or missile in any
    one cartridge or shell...

    https://www.montpelier-vt.org/DocumentCenter/View/1515/Chapter-11---Article-V-Use-Of-Firearms-BB-Guns-Bow-and-Arrows-and-Similar-Weapons-PDF

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    LowKey

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2019, 02:42:27 pm »
    I read the sign.
    I think you may have misinterpreted my question.
    It was the notation at the bottom of the sign that I was addressing, as it reads "Police Order". 
    In cases where I've seen ordinances posted, it cites the relevant code and the Elected body or Municipal Government which created the ordinance.
    I thought it odd as the sign implies that the Police Department created the ordinance, and I am unaware (perhaps woefully so) that Law Enforcement agencies get to create laws.  Enforce? Absolutely. 
    I admit it's a quibble, but it struck me as odd.
     


    :hmm

    Let's fire up the old search engine:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Montpelier Code of Ordinances

    Sec. 11-500. USE OF ARMS
    No person shall discharge or fire or cause to be discharged, or fired, any revolver, pistol, rifle,
    shotgun, air rifle, BB gun, or other similar firearm or weapon within the limits of the city of Montpelier...

    ...nor shall it apply to the use of shotgun, air rifle, or BB gun, by a hunter in the active pursuit of game,
    except that such shotgun shall not be used with ammunition containing a single slug, pellet or missile in any
    one cartridge or shell...

    https://www.montpelier-vt.org/DocumentCenter/View/1515/Chapter-11---Article-V-Use-Of-Firearms-BB-Guns-Bow-and-Arrows-and-Similar-Weapons-PDF

    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 04:27:48 pm »
    I read the sign.
    I think you may have misinterpreted my question.
    It was the notation at the bottom of the sign that I was addressing, as it reads "Police Order". 
    In cases where I've seen ordinances posted, it cites the relevant code and the Elected body or Municipal Government which created the ordinance.
    I thought it odd as the sign implies that the Police Department created the ordinance, and I am unaware (perhaps woefully so) that Law Enforcement agencies get to create laws.  Enforce? Absolutely. 
    I admit it's a quibble, but it struck me as odd.
     



    When you mentioned it, I also found the wording rather odd and worth a search.

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    LowKey

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 05:51:06 pm »
     :)
    Apparently we were talking past each other, just slightly.

    When you mentioned it, I also found the wording rather odd and worth a search.

    Roper1911

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #15 on: August 19, 2019, 08:59:45 am »
    Interesting. What is the source of this ballistic information?

    I found the BC of a 7/8th oz slug and used a calculator. it's a very rough estimate.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #16 on: August 20, 2019, 06:43:53 am »
    These figures were in answer to a technical query I made to Winchester Ammunition:

    X12RS15- Rifled Slug, 1 ounce @ 1600 fps: 1,068 Yards

    X44MHSP2- .44 Mag. 240 gr. @ 1760 fps: 2,239 Yards

    X4570H- .45-70 300 gr. @ 1880 fps: 2,291 Yards

    SSP12- 12Ga. 385 gr. @ 1900 fps: 2,971 Yards

    ----------------------------------------------------

    For comparison:

    Federal LE cartridge maximum range chart:

    One ounce 12 gauge full bore rifled slug @ 1300 fps max distance 1100 yards.   Handgun and rifle calibers are shown for comparison at the website below.

    https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/technical_bulletins/MaximumRanges.pdf
    « Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 07:22:06 am by RMc »
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #17 on: August 20, 2019, 10:27:21 am »
    These figures were in answer to a technical query I made to Winchester Ammunition:

    X12RS15- Rifled Slug, 1 ounce @ 1600 fps: 1,068 Yards

    X44MHSP2- .44 Mag. 240 gr. @ 1760 fps: 2,239 Yards

    X4570H- .45-70 300 gr. @ 1880 fps: 2,291 Yards

    SSP12- 12Ga. 385 gr. @ 1900 fps: 2,971 Yards

    ----------------------------------------------------

    For comparison:

    Federal LE cartridge maximum range chart:

    One ounce 12 gauge full bore rifled slug @ 1300 fps max distance 1100 yards.   Handgun and rifle calibers are shown for comparison at the website below.

    https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/technical_bulletins/MaximumRanges.pdf

    yeah, it's similar to the SSP12 but with a MUCH worse BC.
    North Carolina"it has two fire modes, safe, and most decidedly unsafe"
    ~Chief Warrant Leon McMurdo. Shilo Mountain Rangers, sixth battalion. Mount Hector School of Military tactics. November 8th 3451.

    Yes. When the question is 1911, the answer is "yes". ~HVS

    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #18 on: August 20, 2019, 10:43:19 pm »
    This area is limited to Buckshot:

    USACE – Bonnet Carre Spillway

    Owner: U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (7,623 acres within St. Charles Parish)
    Deer Notes: Archery and Shotgun (buckshot) only
     
    http://www.eregulations.com/louisiana/18lahd/federal-land-hunting-schedules/
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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #19 on: August 20, 2019, 11:19:41 pm »
    Well, I guess its OK to ask the question but asking us here doesn't get to why the decision was made to implement those regs there in the first place.  :hmm  I assume there was/is some reasoning behind it but not being familiar with the areas in question I really don't know. 

    In years gone by I've had dealings with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and it would be hard to imagine a more dedicated, hide bound group when it comes to absolute adherence to the letter of the regs.   Even when those regs are in direct conflict with the facts on the ground where they are being argued.  Even when you get them to admit the regs make no sense at all in the current situation, there is a precise process and hierarchy for dealing with that situation and it will be followed to the letter regardless the cost. 

    Maybe we're looking at something like that here - maybe not, but without more knowledge I can't really see where this discussion is going.   :coffee
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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #20 on: September 22, 2019, 02:13:15 pm »
    Yes, the USACE – Bonnet Carre Spillway "Buckshot Only" regulation was put in place because the Parish, where the COE land is located, limited all deer/hog gun hunting to shotguns with buckshot over maximum range concerns. 
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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #21 on: September 24, 2019, 11:07:16 am »
    yeah, it's similar to the SSP12 but with a MUCH worse BC.

    Indeed!  The SSP12 is a sub-caliber sabot round designed only for rifled barrels.  The very concept of sabot and rifled barrels resulted in higher ballistic coefficient projectiles that in some cases exceeded the maximum danger range of many straight wall metallic cartridges.

    This extended danger range in turn this led to the legalization of straight wall cartridges in what had been shotgun slug only areas for many decades.  The high cost of sabot slug ammunition, in turn, fueled the popularity of straight wall rifle calibers due to lower ammunition costs.

    The only way then to reel-in the increased danger range in hunting areas in close proximity to human habitation is to return to smoothbore slug only regulations with necessarily lower ballistic coefficient projectiles.  As noted earlier there are a few areas doing just that.  Will this catch on in other areas remains to be seen.

    Other firearm based approaches could be used, such as buckshot only or muzzle loading "round ball only" hunting areas. 

    Of course, non-firearm options such as bow, crossbow and big bore air rifle area restrictions could further limit danger range concerns.

    Indeed, simply restricting rifle hunting to elevated stands only is another option and one that is currently used in some Virginia counties. 

     :coffee



     
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #22 on: September 24, 2019, 11:43:26 pm »
    Yup.  Elevated stand hunting is a fairly good solution in crowded areas but the enforcement mechanism leaves a lot to be desired.  Public land hunting is always challenging - particularly for new hunters.  I think the best solution is always going to be hunter education and mentoring.   

    Any sufficiently deadly projectile launched from a long gun is going to have fairly long range potential for lethality.  Maybe handgun hunting is the answer for some of these situations.   :hmm
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    RMc

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #23 on: October 27, 2019, 05:57:42 pm »
    For what its worth, in some of the Elevated Stand only Virginia counties, it is unlawful to have a loaded rifle when not actually in an elevated stand!
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Slug only, smoothbore only hunting reg.
    « Reply #24 on: October 27, 2019, 10:27:58 pm »
    Well that's just silly.   :facepalm
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