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Author Topic: Simple, inexpensive shotgun  (Read 18568 times)

Nightcrawler

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Simple, inexpensive shotgun
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:14:56 pm »
The discussion about the Cobray Terminator got me thinking.  Setting aside for a moment whether or not there's any market for it, how would you go about designing a solid, reliable, but as inexpensive-as-possible shotgun, for defensive purposes?

You can get a single-shot for pretty cheap.  I own an NEF Pardner 12 gauge.  It was the first shotgun I ever purchased, and I think I got it for less than a hundred bucks back about fifteen years ago.  I don't know what the NEF (or similar) single shotties run these days.

But let's start with a clean-slate design.  Let's assume domestic manufacturing (because you can get a Chinese-made pump shotgun for $200 at Walmart), so no cost-cutting with foreign labor.  The idea is to be perfectly serviceable, but as inexpensive as possible.  Sub-$100-out-the-door price is the target.  It needs to be easy to use, easy to clean, and designed for rapid assembly. 

Personally, I'm thinking some kind of double barrel.  A single shot is fine, but a double barrel would be better for this purpose.

Now, would it sell?  I don't know.  Hi-Point pistols sell.  If I could buy a double-barreled shotgun for a hundred bucks I'd be all over it, even if it was a little crude.
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 11:30:55 pm »


    A modernized version of this, maybe?



    The Duplet from Metro 2033.  It seems someone actually built one (out of PVC, as a prop).



    Here's a bolt-action, magazine-fed 12-gauge that looks very uncomfortable to shoot.







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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 11:36:57 pm »
    Then there was this bad boy we found in Afghanistan.

    They said it was a "weapons cache", you see.  It was this, a shotgun pistol of some kind (also single shot), with parts missing, and a pellet gun.



    There's video of it, too:

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    Desert Rat

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 09:42:47 pm »
    The Colt Defender might be a great design for this concept. Not sure how many parts it has or what it would take to make it, but it looks simple and primitive enough, and having eight rounds on tap wouldn't be a bad thing. You could strip it down to a simplified form without the barrel selector or tear gas ejector to remove complexity and weight. Chamber it in 12 gauge and there you go. I'm sure they could hold down the costs with modern polymers and MIM parts.






    Raptor

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 09:59:44 pm »
    I'm thinking something like this:



    Okay, put the torches, pitchforks, tar, feathers, and skinning knives away whilst I explain.

    Double-barreled shotguns have a two-hundred-odd year history of caveman simplicity and dead-nuts reliability. It's a simple design that should be (should; I'm a writer, not an engineer, so I don't know for sure) be inexpensive to manufacture, moreso if you use a double-trigger setup with exposed hammers. No complicated mechanical or inertia resets. Use a simple bake-on for the metal and synthetic furniture and it should be dirt-cheap. Dunno if you're gonna get a less-than-$100 price point, but it should get darn close.
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    booksmart

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 11:15:43 pm »
    The Thompson/Center action could probably be mimicked and built for under $100, if you were using a fixed barrel instead of an interchangeable one... use an AR trigger group with an extension welded onto the hammer to cock it.

    $100 is a weird pocket to aim for... how easily someone could hit it, and turn out a weapon that's not more of danger to the person behind the trigger than behind the bullseye, may well depend on what they had laying around.


    On the other hand, I bought my Mossberg for $150, soooooooo...
    « Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:27:37 pm by booksmart »

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 11:38:31 pm »
    The Thompson/Center action could probably be mimicked and built for under $100, if you were using a fixed barrel instead of an interchangeable one... use an AR trigger group with an extension welded onto the hammer to cock it.

    $100 is a weird pocket to aim for... how easily someone could hit it, and turn out a weapon that's not more of danger to the person behind the trigger than behind the bullseye, may well depend on what they had laying around.


    On the other hand, I bought my Mossberg for $150, soooooooo...

    I got an NEF Pardner Pump for just over $160 a few years back. That shotgun has impressed the hell out of me. Not too shabby for a Chinese 870 knock off. The gunsmith who refinished it for me said he thought they might even have better receivers than most recent Remingtons he'd seen.

    Raptor is on the right track with that double gun. I don't mind the rails at all, or how ugly it is. I like Evil Black Guns myself.

    Personally, I'd rather have an ugly, short-barreled over/under. Certainly the Chinese could come up with a knock off of the Stoeger O/U Double Defense that wouldn't blow up in your hands.





    I don't care if it's stupid. I want it.  :cool

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 11:56:03 pm »
    Should've mentioned that my double wouldn't have the rails: the side-by-side Double Defense is just semi-similar to how I envision it. Picture the Double Defense with two triggers, exposed hammers, and no rails.

    And I'm sorry, but I think that O/U Double Defense is sexy lookin'
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    Roper1911

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 12:14:48 am »
    stamp the main receiver and resistance weld it to the breech face to cut down on cost and machine time. but that would also drive up initial cost. (stamping dies are $$$$)
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 12:23:33 am »
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    RMc

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 10:10:44 am »
    Simple: Think single shot bolt action with root of the bolt handle single locking lug. Receiver and barrel made from the same steel tubing.  Shades of the single shot .410 gauges of the 1950's.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 10:20:16 am »
    Simple: Think single shot bolt action with root of the bolt handle single locking lug. Receiver and barrel made from the same steel tubing.  Shades of the single shot .410 gauges of the 1950's.

    That's probably about as simple as it's gonna get.

    Double barrels are appealing in that they give you more than one shot without having to figure out a magazine or feed arrangement, but building one double is most of the work (maybe more) of building two single shots.
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 11:02:11 am »
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 07:22:49 pm »
    I suppose a single-shot 12 gauge isn't the best option for home defense, but it's better than using a baseball bat.  I any case, a single 12-guage round is worth a whole magazine full of a .380 pistol, so it's got that going for it.

    You could make the whole thing out of steel tubing with a plastic grip and stock.  The only parts that need to be hardened are the bolt and barrel.  I think with enough volume of production you could get the price to a hundred bucks.  Less, probably, if you produced them offshore.
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #14 on: February 05, 2015, 08:03:21 pm »
    Once upon a time...a bolt action .410 and a boy.





                        Can you say thread drift?            :whistle
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 08:29:56 pm »
    I suppose a single-shot 12 gauge isn't the best option for home defense, but it's better than using a baseball bat.  I any case, a single 12-guage round is worth a whole magazine full of a .380 pistol, so it's got that going for it.

    You could make the whole thing out of steel tubing with a plastic grip and stock.  The only parts that need to be hardened are the bolt and barrel.  I think with enough volume of production you could get the price to a hundred bucks.  Less, probably, if you produced them offshore.

    Really?

    http://www.impactguns.com/bersa-thunder-380-plus-matte-finish-w15rd-mag-thun380pm15-091664903851.aspx

     ;)

    Not to thread-drift but I'd rather have my 8+1 Makarov .380 than a single-shot 12 gauge for HD any day.

      Cheap shotguns always appeal to me.  I've got three single-shot 12 gauges that I picked up for $70 or less each.   I'd love to see one of the designs contemplated here for under $100!


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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #16 on: February 05, 2015, 08:59:12 pm »
    Really?

    http://www.impactguns.com/bersa-thunder-380-plus-matte-finish-w15rd-mag-thun380pm15-091664903851.aspx

     ;)

    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/123030/remington-express-ammunition-12-gauge-3-00-buckshot-15-pellets-box-of-5



    Really.  ;)


    Not to thread-drift but I'd rather have my 8+1 Makarov .380 than a single-shot 12 gauge for HD any day.

    Do you practice with this gun quite a bit?  Semi-frequently, even?  The person whose economic circumstances are such that they'd need to rely on a $100 shotgun to defend the home with probably doesn't have a lot of free time and disposable income for range trips.  A single shot is limited, but it's still a 12-gauge, it's still fairly easy to aim and shoot with minimal practice.  Recoil would not be fun, but when a crackhead kicks in your door you've got bigger problems.

    A double barrel would be better, of course, but that makes it harder to get to our $100 price tag.  Perhaps if it was manufactured in China?  But a modern design, meant for simple manufacture without a lot of machining or hand-fitting, not a replica of a 19th-century design.
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #17 on: February 05, 2015, 10:07:19 pm »
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 02:18:06 am »
    The barrel I see as a big cost with the machining--how long do you spend honing a barrel?  If you skip that, and just leave it bored, you'd probably save a good bit of money--$50-100 per hour of machine time.  Accuracy and grouping will probably be atrocious compared to even slightly more expensive guns, but good enough for O'dark thirty.
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 12:04:32 pm »
    You can get cold formed 4130 seamless hydraulic tubing in approximately the right inside diameters that's rated to several times the pressure generated by shotshells. Looks like that costs under $10/foot for 0.875x.065x0.745 (which is just a smidge large for 12 gauge).
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #20 on: February 07, 2015, 12:30:31 pm »
    You can get cold formed 4130 seamless hydraulic tubing in approximately the right inside diameters that's rated to several times the pressure generated by shotshells. Looks like that costs under $10/foot for 0.875x.065x0.745 (which is just a smidge large for 12 gauge).
    the bases of these three shot shells i just measured is .8020-8066, could we still bore a chamber in that pipe?

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #21 on: February 07, 2015, 12:52:27 pm »
    You could go with a larger pipe with thicker walls, or you could mount the barrel in a receiver that would support a thinner walled chamber.
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #22 on: February 07, 2015, 03:29:34 pm »
    Jesse, you should build one of these. Prototype it.
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #23 on: February 07, 2015, 05:59:40 pm »
    I've been pondering on that.  :hmm
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    Re: Simple, inexpensive shotgun
    « Reply #24 on: February 07, 2015, 06:24:32 pm »
    I've been pondering on that.  :hmm

    Just as an exercise I think it'd be interesting, especially if you could make a functional double barrel.
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