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Author Topic: Off-Brand Shotguns  (Read 17931 times)

Nightcrawler

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Off-Brand Shotguns
« on: September 04, 2014, 08:31:02 pm »
Right now there is a plethora of off-brand and oddball shotguns on the market.  Almost all of them are imported; off the top of my head, the only big domestic producers of scatterguns these days are Remington and Mossberg.  I'm also leaving out Benelli and Beretta, as these guys have been importing shotguns for decades now.

Most of them are 5+1 capacity, as importing shotguns with bigger magazines is a 922r violation.  As near as I can tell, every single one of them suffers from the same ridiculously long stock problem as do the Mossbergs and Remingtons, but with less recourse to correct it.

A lot of these guns are coming from Turkey, and I suspect the rest are coming from China.  You don't see the Baikal shotguns from Russia much anymore.  Chinese clones of shotguns have been around for a while; my second repeating shotgun was a Remington 870 clone with ghost ring sights.  The big difference was the stock magazine tube held five rounds instead of four on the Remington.  Oddly enough, Remington now makes basic 870 variants with 5+1 capacity.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/stevens320pump



The Stevens 320 pump shotgun is imported by Savage Arms.  I don't know where it hails from originally.  I don't know if any aftermarket parts (such as magazine tube extensions) will fit it.  They are very reasonably priced; I saw one at Walmart for under $200.00.

Stevens also markets the 350, which I believe is a Chinese clone of the Ithaca 37 with ghost ring sights.  They were previously imported by others.


http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/category.asp?family=021C



The Winchester Super-X Pump is the current branding of the old Model 1300.  I list it as an oddball as they were off the market for several years, and are not produced int he United States.  They are produced by FN of Belgium, I believe, and share parts commonality with the FN Police Pump shotguns imported in the 2005-8 timeframe.  Their pricing is pretty competitive; Scheels in Utah had them for $300 even.  A Winchester 1300 was my first repeating shotgun, and it was slick.  I don't know if you can find different stocks or magazine tube extensions anymore, though.

http://www.jgsales.com/catamount-hd12-pump-action-shotgun,-12ga,-18.5-barrel,-new.-p-6223.html



The Catamount HD-12 is being imported by Century Arms.  I think it's Turkish.  The Catamount Lynx, with a pistol grip, is also available.


Tristar Sporting Arms is importing a bunch of shotguns from Turkey.  I'm not sure if they're the same base guns as the ones Century is importing or not.

http://www.tristararms.com/tactical-shotguns.php


TEC-12 pump/auto; apparently a spindly-looking clone of the Benelli M3.


Cobra Tactical Pump: "The Cobra Tactical is the foundation of tactical/home defense shotguns from TriStar. Cylinder bore with a 20" barrel, faux extended mag tube (5+1), and TriStar's signature Spring-Loaded Forearm. The Cobra Tactical is sure to be your best line of defense."


Cobra Force Tactical.


Raptor ATAC semiauto.  NOT a clone of the Benelli M1, as it's gas operated.  Beretta clone perhaps?


CZ USA imports shotguns, the 612 Pump and the 712 Semiauto.  CZ's quality is usually excellent, but you don't see these guns around very often.

http://cz-usa.com/product-category/shotguns/


612 Pump: "With the HC-P (Horde Control- Pump), you won’t be under-gunned when zombie hordes fill the streets."  It looks a lot like some of the Turkish shotguns, and is priced to match.  I wonder if it's from the same factory?


CZ 712 utility semiauto.


Mossberg International imports the SA-20 semiauto shotgun.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/shotguns/autoloading/mossberg-international-sa-20


20 gauge.


Has anyone used any of these guns, as currently available?  I'm not in the market, mind you, just curious as to the quality and experience.  Can anyone sort out which shotguns are made where?

I just wish they'd pick a standard thread size for things like chokes and magazine tube extensions, so aftermarket accessories could be added.  Also, why in the hell do shotguns always come with 14" lengths of pull?  That's an inch longer than most people need, and most rifle stocks are shorter accordingly.

EDIT: Forgot Browning!  The BPS is made in...Belgium?  Or is it Japan?  Anyway, it's available in a variety of dressings.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/finder.asp?f1=011B


.410 bore, 5+1


10 Gauge Stalker


12 gauge Predator Hunter

Browning also offers the Auto-5, Maxus, Silver, and Gold autoloading shotguns.  The Auto-5 is a classic design.  The Gold and Silver are basically the same guns as the FN Self-Loading Police, I think; the Silver is in 12/20 gauge and the Gold is in 10 Gauge.  I don't know about the Maxus.
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    strangelittleman

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 09:10:40 pm »
      If I recall correctly, both the CZ and the Weatherby are Turkish.

    http://cz-usa.com/product-category/shotguns/

    http://www.weatherby.com/product/shotguns
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 09:49:56 pm »
    I forgot about Weatherby!

    The Turkish arms makers seem to be having a bonanza right now.  Every American company that wants a budget shotgun is lining up at their door.  Makes you wonder how much they'd cost per unit if you cut out the middleman.

    I wouldn't mind picking up one of these $180 shotguns one of these days and putting it through its paces.  A pump shotgun can handle most hazardous situations just fine, and as I've said, even broke college students, single moms, and Waffle House waitresses need guns.

    I *think* some of those Turkish guns are clones of the Benelli SuperNova, but I'm not sure.
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 10:11:23 pm »
      Oh there's also Stoeger....They are the ones that are similar to the Benelli Nova series.....By way of Istanbul.....

    http://www.stoegerindustries.com/shotguns
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    Kaso

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 10:14:25 pm »
    Seeing as Stoeger is owned by Beretta, (as is Benelli) I would not hesitate to pick one up.



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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 11:30:39 pm »
    CZ, Weatherby, Winchester, most of those are all made in Turkey.  Turkey has become the Mecca of Shotguns. 
    As a result... they all sorta feel the same.
    And most of them run just fine.  But every once in awhile you do get some real lemons. 
    They don't really feel quite right when you cycle them.  Holding them they feel fine.  But work that action a few times and it comes away like how a Diet Soda leaves a fake aftertaste. 
    I don't like them.  And I wouldn't buy one.  I just wouldn't. 
    But if I was working with a good dealer that will take care of me if the gun is faulty - then maybe it's worth the shot.
    If not - and your buying from Walmart - No.  Just no.  Walk away.  Break the wrist, and walk away.  Just break the wrist, and walk away. 
    If I had to choose - I'd maybe go with the Stoeger pump action.  They seem the most solid, and with some TLC and some initial polishing for the bolt and action rails... use some Slipstream in the action... You can have a pretty dang good, slick pump action for a few bucks less than a Mossberg.
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 11:32:59 pm »
    As far as Brownings go.   Top Notch - if you can actually find them. 
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 12:07:51 am »
    Meh.  It's just a pump shotgun.  Most people are going to shoot it a few times and throw it in the closet.  I suspect most of them will be fine for that.  At least with the Stevens, CZ, and Weatherby-imported guns, you've got a major manufacturer behind it, so you can send it in for replacement if it's a lemon.  Probably not up to competition use or anything, but really, $200 Walmart shotguns are a poor choice for that anyway.  :cool

    I still don't get the stupid long stocks they put on shotguns, but that seems to be the way of it.  Do shotgun designers have long arms, or do they just think that even defensive guns will be swung and shot like trap guns?

    Now, your other option for getting a cheap shotgun is to peruse the used gun racks at a major retailer like Cabela's.  There are always tons of used shotguns there.  If you're going to get it cheap, though, it's going to be in rough shape (and it still likely won't be $200.00).  But if you're willing to deal with that, and are also willing to cut down a 26" barrel with a ridiculous huge muzzle brake of some kind on it, then you can get a good shotgun for not much money.

    Lots of people don't live in places where they have big used gun retailers, though.  And sometimes, Cabela's and the like want way too much money for the guns in question.
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 12:11:44 am »
    That's the fun part of the Gun Shopping Experience. 
    The thrill of the Hunt. 
    Roaming all your LSG's, prowling the gun shows.  Savor that experience.
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 12:30:51 am »
    You make it sound so magical.   :rotfl

    I don't mind a project gun, (assuming I have time to troll gun shows or browse gun stores, which I don't, even if there were any around here, which there aren't), but someone who has only a little money and just needs something to defend the house with probably doesn't want to deal with that.  (The first time I had a local gunsmith shorten a shotgun barrel for me, way back in Michigan, he looked at me like I was crazy.  "Why do you want it that short?".  20", mind you.) 

    On the other hand, a $200 Walmart special has appeal too.  If it's not great, you're not out much, and you can throw it in the trunk without worrying too much about it being stolen.

    Also, I forgot about the H&R Pardner Pump!  I think this one is imported from China.

    http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/shotguns/pardnerpump.asp



    $166 at Bud's.  The cheapest Remington 870 Express is $345.  Better gun?  Yes (well, probably, given Remington's post-Freedom-Group QC), but a cylinder bore pump shotgun is not an elegant weapon to begin with.  I wouldn't mind picking up one of these just to see how it runs.  If it breaks?  Jesse can fix it. Or turn it into a flamethrower or something.   :rotfl

    Again with the 14.25" LOP, though.  Seriously, WTF? 
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 06:25:46 am »
    Thats a Chinese 870 rip off.   Which is funny... because they are owned by Marlin who is in turn owned by Remington.   So Remington is importing their own ripoffs.
    Whats surprised me though is that Remington hasn't just rebadged those as 870's.
    Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas.
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 08:34:40 am »
       The thing is there are a FEW lemons....but for the most part these Turkish shotguns are REALLY nice.  I know of a buttload of the Savage pump actions and various other Turkish guns, Only know of one taht's had a problem, a few others have absorbed a few thousand rounds even.

    Admittedly "I" would rather buy a good used Mossberg....But overall I think the newer shotguns are GREAT to have around.   if they weren't here, used shotgun prices would be a lot higher than they are.
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 05:20:21 pm »
    After seeing what the Stoeger and Canik factories have been turning out I wouldn't hesitate to buy Turkish made guns

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 06:08:58 pm »
      I found out today that Stoeger's double barrel shotguns (coach guns and over&unders) are made in Brazil...who knew?  :shrug
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #14 on: September 05, 2014, 06:23:31 pm »
    I've got a China-made Stevens 350 that I've toyed with a bit. Overall I'd say it's a pretty decent little Ithaca 37 clone.

    I stripped it down, cleaned out all the packing grease, stoned the contact surfaces (which were machined a bit rough), gave it a good Slipstreaming, and painted the furniture OD.

    I've only put a couple boxes through it to test function but it seems to work well. The Ithaca is a solid design and this shotgun seems to have only varied from it by adding a second action bar.



    If anyone's interested, I was thinking I'd sell it off around $255. Still has the Davidson's Lifetime guarantee  ;)
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #15 on: September 05, 2014, 08:22:02 pm »
      I found out today that Stoeger's double barrel shotguns (coach guns and over&unders) are made in Brazil...who knew?  :shrug

    Actually I should of...my trap gun is a Stoeger Condor Competition....<facepalm>

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #16 on: September 05, 2014, 09:00:00 pm »
    I looked at a CZ 712 on the trade-in rack a while back. I think it was around $400. Still kick myself for not buying it.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 02:22:37 am »
    As reasonable as the prices seem to be on used Remingtons and Mossbergs I think I'll stay with the American made guns.  Even Ithaca model 37's can be found in nearly new condition in the used gun racks.  If you just want a beater truck gun, pick one with a little more finish wear. 
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 11:07:01 am »
    Everyone who seems to handle one marvels at the smoothness and speed of the Turkish made Winchester Defender. I kinda want one!

    But those Stevens are nice too. Both the standard ones and the Ithaca copy. I like shotguns, period. Regardless of what country they come from.  :)

    The cheaper Stevens at around $200 you can buy a bunch and arm your "not super into guns" friends during the zombie apocalypse while telling them, "I told you so!".
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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 11:09:00 am »
    I've got a China-made Stevens 350 that I've toyed with a bit. Overall I'd say it's a pretty decent little Ithaca 37 clone.

    I stripped it down, cleaned out all the packing grease, stoned the contact surfaces (which were machined a bit rough), gave it a good Slipstreaming, and painted the furniture OD.

    I've only put a couple boxes through it to test function but it seems to work well. The Ithaca is a solid design and this shotgun seems to have only varied from it by adding a second action bar.



    If anyone's interested, I was thinking I'd sell it off around $255. Still has the Davidson's Lifetime guarantee  ;)

    Jesse, post that on the WTA FB page. That should go in a heartbeat. If I were working I'd scoop it up myself! And I don't even need it!!!
    To all those killed by a 9mm, "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!" -HVS

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    Re: Off-Brand Shotguns
    « Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 06:25:48 pm »
    I worked on a Charles Daly pump a while back and it was made in turkey.  For the most part it was an entirely serviceable pump gun for sporting use.  The only bad part was the trigger group.  Lots of poorly trimmed and fitted plastic parts and the metal bits didn't inspire confidence.  That was the issue the guy was having with it.  The hammer was so poorly fitted to the rest of the trigger group the thing was falling in slow motion and couldn't hit the primer hard enough.  I disassembled the trigger group, removed all the flash and burs on the plastic parts and very lightly lubricated the friction points.  It worked fine after that but I'm not sure I would want to trust my life to it.  It's one thing to screw up a turkey or goose hunt but another to have it go click instead of bang in a life or death situation.  The rest of the internals, bolt, carrier etc weren't bad at all.  That trigger though...ugh.

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