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Author Topic: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition  (Read 12250 times)

MTK20

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Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2017, 10:03:01 am »
MTK20[quote
 ...I feel we're getting pretty exotic with our shell choices here  ;) .


Well, I didn't bring up Pixie Dust and double ball loads!   ::)

 :rotfl

Just roll your own with some rainbow 100's and 1000's and you'll be good on not over penetrating. After that, just bake at 350 for half an hour  :neener.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #26 on: April 13, 2017, 12:55:16 pm »
    :rotfl

    Just roll your own with some rainbow 100's and 1000's and you'll be good on not over penetrating. After that, just bake at 350 for half an hour  :neener.

    Pray thee tell, just what are "rainbow 100's and 1,0000's ?"   Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide loading data and a link or links to ballistic gell testing.  :coffee
    Alabama

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #27 on: April 13, 2017, 03:12:40 pm »
    Pray thee tell, just what are "rainbow 100's and 1,0000's ?"   Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide loading data and a link or links to ballistic gell testing.  :coffee



    They are not just sprinkles, but specifically the round ones that would most likely resemble shotgun shot. I was being cute  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #28 on: April 13, 2017, 07:46:19 pm »


    They are not just sprinkles, but specifically the round ones that would most likely resemble shotgun shot. I was being cute  :cool.

    Interesting.   :hmm

    If you should wish to actually experiment with sugar based "shot", I would suggest using an easily ignited bulk powder that is not dependent on ejecta weight to build working pressure. Early forms of such cartridges used that well known "shot" of legend - Rock Salt!   The "fearsome reputation" of these loads was spawned in the late 19th and early 20th century when rock salt was subsituted for lead shot in, then common, Black Powder  shotshells. 
    Alabama

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #29 on: April 13, 2017, 08:14:31 pm »
    Previously, I was just messing around, but I'm curious as to what the ballistics would be.

    I have no reloading equipment, but do we have any mad scientists with a sweet tooth in the house  :hmm? If so, please post.

    It might be the best load to use in the gingerbread house  :neener.

    Also, is sugar corrosive in a bore?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #30 on: April 13, 2017, 09:00:30 pm »
    About like corrosive priming compound. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #31 on: April 13, 2017, 09:05:23 pm »
    Really? Dang, we'd have to break out the 409 then.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #32 on: April 19, 2017, 02:03:23 pm »
    Ammonia based household cleaners can be corrosive if left in contact with barrel steel.  :coffee
    Alabama

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #33 on: April 19, 2017, 08:14:14 pm »
    But it's the best way I know to break down corrosive fouling, as many current gun cleaners do not break them down (to my knowledge).

    So what methods do you use to clean a gun after corrosive ammo?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #34 on: April 19, 2017, 08:30:19 pm »
    Sprinkles are for Winners.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
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    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #35 on: April 20, 2017, 01:02:57 am »
    But it's the best way I know to break down corrosive fouling, as many current gun cleaners do not break them down (to my knowledge).

    So what methods do you use to clean a gun after corrosive ammo?
    The corrosive part of corrosive fouling is a salt so it needs to be dissolved in order to remove it.  If you're cheap you can just use hot water and a few drops of dishwashing soap.  We used to use Windex with Ammonia D on old Enfields and the like.  Ballistol diluted with water ( 9 parts water - one part Ballistol )also works well and has the advantage of leaving a bit of oil behind in the bore or gas chamber when you're done. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #36 on: April 20, 2017, 08:52:45 am »
    Interesting.   :hmm

    If you should wish to actually experiment with sugar based "shot", I would suggest using an easily ignited bulk powder that is not dependent on ejecta weight to build working pressure. Early forms of such cartridges used that well known "shot" of legend - Rock Salt!   The "fearsome reputation" of these loads was spawned in the late 19th and early 20th century when rock salt was subsituted for lead shot in, then common, Black Powder  shotshells. 

    For those that missed the point, the letters in bold above refer to black powder.
    Alabama

    coelacanth

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 11:42:13 pm »
    I assumed that was your reference but others may not - good catch.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #38 on: April 21, 2017, 12:12:15 am »
    Thank you for clarifying. I didn't catch that previously.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #39 on: May 05, 2017, 10:30:50 am »
    not to keep thumping on this,  but this just hit my inbox this morning from Massad Ayoob.

    http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

    ******************************************           

    THE PROBLEM WITH HANDLOADS FOR DEFENSE
    Friday, May 5th, 2017 by Mas | No Comments »

    For years, I’ve warned people that there are a couple of serious concerns with using handloaded ammunition for personal or home defense.  The big one is forensic replicability when the shooter is accused, and opposing theories of distance become a factor.

    How often does this happen? One time some years ago, that question came up on an internet debate.  I looked through the ten cases I had pending at the time as an expert witness, and gunshot residue (GSR) testing to determine distance from gun muzzle to the person shot was an issue in four of them.  Forty percent is not what I’d call statistically insignificant.

    I’ve found this to be perhaps the most visceral and contentious of gun forum debates. When I suggest to someone that the ammo he crafted himself might be a handicap in court, it’s as if they had just prepared a Thanksgiving feast for their family from scratch, and I’d told them “Don’t poison your family with that crap, go out and buy them some KFC.”

    They react as if you had told them they had ugly babies.

    Here are two very good writeups, at least one by an attorney, explaining how and why handloaded ammunition can muddy the waters if and when you find yourself in court after a self-defense shooting:

    https://www.glocktalk.com/a/the-peculiar-problem-of-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.18/

    and

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carrying-handloads-for-self-defense.618021/

    Read, and if you have any friends who use handloads for serious social purposes, please share. You might just save them from the sort of nightmare suffered by the defendant in New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, who was bankrupted by legal fees before the first of his three trials was over, and wound up serving hard time.  Both of his attorneys were convinced he was innocent, and told me they believed that if he had simply had factory ammo in his home defense gun, the case would probably never have even gone to trial.

    Discussion is invited here, but PLEASE, read and absorb the two links before posting.
    ****************************       

    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    RMc

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #40 on: May 05, 2017, 11:04:09 am »
    THE PROBLEM WITH HANDLOADS FOR DEFENSE
    Fri
    not to keep thumping on this,  but this just hit my inbox this morning from Massad Ayoob.

    http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

    I once again refer to my original post for appropriate context.

    Frankly, two simple 1 ounce 12 and 20 gauge factory rounds loaded with "T" Buckshot* would fill a major gap in the available home defense ammunition marketplace.

    "T" Lead Buckshot:
    .200" diameter
    11.5 grains each
    38.0 pellets per ounce
    Alabama

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #41 on: May 05, 2017, 11:09:16 am »
    not to keep thumping on this,  but this just hit my inbox this morning from Massad Ayoob.

    http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

    ******************************************           

    THE PROBLEM WITH HANDLOADS FOR DEFENSE
    Friday, May 5th, 2017 by Mas | No Comments »

    For years, I’ve warned people that there are a couple of serious concerns with using handloaded ammunition for personal or home defense.  The big one is forensic replicability when the shooter is accused, and opposing theories of distance become a factor.

    How often does this happen? One time some years ago, that question came up on an internet debate.  I looked through the ten cases I had pending at the time as an expert witness, and gunshot residue (GSR) testing to determine distance from gun muzzle to the person shot was an issue in four of them.  Forty percent is not what I’d call statistically insignificant.

    I’ve found this to be perhaps the most visceral and contentious of gun forum debates. When I suggest to someone that the ammo he crafted himself might be a handicap in court, it’s as if they had just prepared a Thanksgiving feast for their family from scratch, and I’d told them “Don’t poison your family with that crap, go out and buy them some KFC.”

    They react as if you had told them they had ugly babies.

    Here are two very good writeups, at least one by an attorney, explaining how and why handloaded ammunition can muddy the waters if and when you find yourself in court after a self-defense shooting:

    https://www.glocktalk.com/a/the-peculiar-problem-of-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.18/

    and

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carrying-handloads-for-self-defense.618021/

    Read, and if you have any friends who use handloads for serious social purposes, please share. You might just save them from the sort of nightmare suffered by the defendant in New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, who was bankrupted by legal fees before the first of his three trials was over, and wound up serving hard time.  Both of his attorneys were convinced he was innocent, and told me they believed that if he had simply had factory ammo in his home defense gun, the case would probably never have even gone to trial.

    Discussion is invited here, but PLEASE, read and absorb the two links before posting.
    ****************************     

    This was fantastic!  :thumbup1

    Do you have any similar articles for trigger jobs?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #42 on: May 05, 2017, 03:24:22 pm »
    a couple.  same general theme.  This is something that "could" bite you in court.  It's your choice and like anything else, you get to deal with any possible additional nonsense that might get tossed around in a courtroom.  Nothing to say you will, if / when.  Just that,  it could happen.  and my thinking on this is,  why give some defense attorney any additional bait for fishing.

    https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

    http://concealednation.org/2016/03/modifying-the-trigger-on-your-defensive-firearm-the-case-for-and-against/



    This was fantastic!  :thumbup1

    Do you have any similar articles for trigger jobs?
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #43 on: May 05, 2017, 04:26:17 pm »
    I remember one court case that ended up talking about ammunition.   The lawyer made the argument that because the subject purchased hollow point ammunition, he was premeditated in killing his victim (who was attacking him) with malice.
    The defense simply stated that the subject purchased and used the same ammunition as the police used, which reduced over-penetration and ricochet danger... and asked if the lawyer was implying something about Law Enforcement.
    This line of questioning was immediately dropped.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    MTK20

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    Re: Home Defense Shotshell Ammunition
    « Reply #44 on: May 08, 2017, 07:04:59 pm »
    a couple.  same general theme.  This is something that "could" bite you in court.  It's your choice and like anything else, you get to deal with any possible additional nonsense that might get tossed around in a courtroom.  Nothing to say you will, if / when.  Just that,  it could happen.  and my thinking on this is,  why give some defense attorney any additional bait for fishing.

    https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

    http://concealednation.org/2016/03/modifying-the-trigger-on-your-defensive-firearm-the-case-for-and-against/

    I finally had a chance to read both. You kind of gave me a pro/con deal here. The second article was actually pretty happy with trigger modifications, surprisingly.

    Either way, both articles were good reads. Thanks for sharing!  :thumbup1
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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