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Author Topic: Home defense shotgun suggestions  (Read 9686 times)

Tass

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Home defense shotgun suggestions
« on: November 26, 2008, 04:05:46 pm »
I was looking at the Mossberg 500...Academy has them for $200.  Any thoughts?  (I was really wanting the 'pink' version but it seems it is out of stock everywhere.)

Tass

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    Eagle

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 04:26:10 pm »
    I'm a big fan of the Remington 870.  We have a 20ga youth model that is perfectly fine for both my wife and I.

    I also have a couple of 12ga versions, although no specific home-defense model.  28" barrel bird guns are tough to swing in hallways...
    Texas

    Thernlund

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 04:27:41 pm »
    The 500 is a fine HD shotgun.  It is among the more common choice for such a weapon.  Two of the others are the Remington 870 and the Winchester 1300.

    $200 seems like a great price to me.  These usually go for around $259 (depending on the exact model vaiant).


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Destiny

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 05:41:12 pm »
    A Home Defense shotgun should have a barrel no longer than 18"... as previously mentioned... rather hard to move down the halways with it shouldered with a long barrel... if you can handle a pistol grip... much better.

    Any pump version will work... if you like cute ones... Mossberg makes a nickle Marine version and you can paint the foregrip and stock hot pink to make it PC...  nobody takes a pink shotgun seriously which gives YOU the edge.

    If you want what soldiers carry... Benelli M4 or M1, or Mossberg pump or Remington 870's   Old Remington Wingmasters can be found cheap and you can buy an 18" barrel for it for a quality economical choice.  With Shotguns... you get what you pay for... if your not trained to clear a room with a semi... stick with the pump.

    Destiny
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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 12:40:00 am »
    When we were still married my ex and I picked her up a mossberg 500, it's a wood stocked youth model 20 guage, and it fits her well.


    They key here is fit.  A shotgun that fits you is much easier to practice with, as it feels natural.  Also, if it fits properly, the percieved recoil will be reduced.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Gunsmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 01:18:29 am »
    The one I'm familiar with is the Mossberg 500 .410.

    It's pretty lightweight, the fit shouldn't be an issue, and the recoil isn't bad at all. The barrel is 18 1/2 inches.

    Going through a couple of boxes of rounds at the range to practice made my left arm sore, from holding it up. I need to work on upper body strength. 

    springmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #6 on: November 28, 2008, 08:19:08 pm »
    The one I'm familiar with is the Mossberg 500 .410.

    It's pretty lightweight, the fit shouldn't be an issue, and the recoil isn't bad at all. The barrel is 18 1/2 inches.

    Going through a couple of boxes of rounds at the range to practice made my left arm sore, from holding it up. I need to work on upper body strength. 

    I'm glad you mentioned the .410 as an option.  Nobody's mentioned gauge yet, and I'd be more concerned about what gauge you get and the fit of the shotgun than the barrel length.  Why?  Because if you are going to use that shotgun for home defense you are going to need to become proficient with it.  And proficiency means practice.  And I would personally rather waltz naked through the fires of h*ll than shoot a 12 gauge once, let alone enough times to get good with it.  The other issue is fit.  A shotgun that does not fit you is a shotgun you will not be able to handle well.  Even a short barrel won't help if the stock doesn't fit you.  Whatever you get, before you buy, spend some time with people who can fit you with a stock that will work for YOU.

    While people tend to think of 12 gauge as the "real" shotgun caliber, a .410 could be just the thing...especially if the recoil is manageable and you enjoy shooting it on the trap or skeet fields.  I have watched a kid with a .410 absolutely blow away the adults he was competing with on a trap range (I was one of the adults, and he just flat schooled me...not that that is really that much of a challenge  ::)).  If a shotgun can be used for multiple purposes, then you're more likely to get good with it.

    Don't know if you can get a pistol grip .410.

    Jan

     
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    Gunsmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 12:02:55 am »
    I'm not sure about a pistol grip 410 shotgun, either.

    Taurus makes the Judge, a revolver that shoots .410 shells. I've declined to try it out. If I'm going to shoot shotgun shells, I want it to be from a shotgun. I want to know I have a good grip on it. While the recoil on the Mossberg is no problem, I'm not sure that it would be the same story using those shells in a handgun.

    Even the little Mossberg 500 got heavy after a while. Most 12 gauge shotguns I've seen I can barely lift and hold up any length of time, and the pumping mechanism is made for longer arms than mine.

    I'd try the 12 gauge if I had no other choice, but one shot is probably all I'd get off. I'd use anything handy if I had no other choice, including the .44 Magnum, known to me as the "My-God-I-Hate-That-Gun!" (And, usually, to others at the range, particularly the indoor range, as "What the he** was that!")

    springmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 08:36:29 pm »
    I'm not sure about a pistol grip 410 shotgun, either.

    Taurus makes the Judge, a revolver that shoots .410 shells. I've declined to try it out. If I'm going to shoot shotgun shells, I want it to be from a shotgun. I want to know I have a good grip on it. While the recoil on the Mossberg is no problem, I'm not sure that it would be the same story using those shells in a handgun.

    Even the little Mossberg 500 got heavy after a while. Most 12 gauge shotguns I've seen I can barely lift and hold up any length of time, and the pumping mechanism is made for longer arms than mine.

    I'd try the 12 gauge if I had no other choice, but one shot is probably all I'd get off. I'd use anything handy if I had no other choice, including the .44 Magnum, known to me as the "My-God-I-Hate-That-Gun!" (And, usually, to others at the range, particularly the indoor range, as "What the he** was that!")

    ROTFLMFHO!!!!!!!

    If you'd been at Carter's in Spring, there for awhile I'd have been wielding one of those "My God I Hate That Gun"s.   I sort of felt sorry for one guy who had brought a .22 rifle to shoot next to me.  Sort of, only, though....because (1)  he was at the 20 yard range, and I'm sorry, that is not for rifles IMO and (2) I *did* warn him to keep his ears on and he was stupid and ignored me.  It is usually stupid to ignore me, particularly if you're sitting next to me and I'm shooting a .44 mag.  He learned.  Quickly, and painfully, but he learned.

    My advice to Tass:  find a nice .410 that fits you (and I mean *fits you*...find somebody who can really fit the gun TO YOU) and go with that.  Matter of fact, this thread is reawakening my wish for one of these little guns.  When I bought my Beretta semiauto, I started out my quest actually looking for a good .410 and then got distracted by one friend who SWORE I ought to have a 28 ga., and my own infatuation with a Silver Pigeon but which transferred to my Urika 391.  I do looooooooooooooooove that shotgun.  But I still want a .410  ;D

    One point, that I forgot to make earlier:  UNLESS YOU HAVE BACKUP (like a SWAT team) DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, go "clearing" a house yourself.  Police officers don't do this alone.  Why should you?  Your HD shotgun is for one thing only:  to keep you safe.  Far and away, the best strategy for those of us who are neither police nor military, is to have a plan for how you will get your kids and or other family members in one safe room and how you will then defend that room.  There are certainly other plan options:  when my youngest was still home, ours included him bailing out of his window (first floor) and running to the neighbor across the street who is a Harris County constable, and getting help.  If you have babies in the house, your plan has to take that into account.

    What you, and I, are not really able to do, is to go room to room clearing the house.  Figure out where you will make your stand, figure out everybody's role, practice it, and stick to it.  But don't go clearing your house.  Much bad juju attaches to that.

    Jan
    If a thing looks too good to be true, best to shoot it.  Just in case.

    -----Fionna Glenanne, Burn Notice


    I agree with the Court that the Second Amendment is fully applicable to the States.  I do so because the right to keep and bear a

    Gunsmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 09:35:35 pm »
    I won't shoot the .44 either! I wear double ear protection so it's not so much the sound; it's the shock wave. And, at the indoor range, or late in the afternoon at the outdoor range, you can see it spit fire. (Downwind, at the outdoor range, you can feel it spit fire!)  ;D

    springmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #10 on: November 29, 2008, 09:58:26 pm »
    I won't shoot the .44 either! I wear double ear protection so it's not so much the sound; it's the shock wave. And, at the indoor range, or late in the afternoon at the outdoor range, you can see it spit fire. (Downwind, at the outdoor range, you can feel it spit fire!)  ;D

    ROTFL!  I remember one particularly painful day at the range (and I do mean "painful"!)  I was at the pistol range (actually, the range is not restricted to pistols, but in my mind, if it's less than 50 yards, rifles really ought not be there...just my prejudice, I guess).  At any rate, a group of young adults showed up with a gun I'd not seen before (this was probably almost 3 years ago, I think).  Folding stock, enormous muzzle break....it was a Ruger m77, I think...at any rate. a .223.  I ***ALWAYS*** wear double ears, but after that guy had been shooting for about 10 minutes, I had to ask Archerandshooter to gather up his stuff and for us to leave.  Migraine headache and nausea.  From the percussion.

    Came home and complained vociferously about it on Another Gun Board.  Got zero sympathy (harumph) but I developed a LOATHING for that gun and that round....

    ...until an Olympic Arms AR-15 followed me home and I became "that person with the LOUD GUN" at the range.  OTOH, I also don't shoot mine at anything less than the 50 yard range, and usually shoot at the 100. 

    (But I always feel a little sheepish everytime somebody winces when I shoot)  :confused
    If a thing looks too good to be true, best to shoot it.  Just in case.

    -----Fionna Glenanne, Burn Notice


    I agree with the Court that the Second Amendment is fully applicable to the States.  I do so because the right to keep and bear a

    Skeptic49

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 09:35:57 am »
    My current choice is a 20 gauge Mossberg 500, with a short barrel with rifle sights from Gun Parts Inc. bought years ago on sale.

    The youth models are often the right stock length for women and are available all over the place, including WalMart and Gander Mountain.  I like the 20 Gauge better than the .410, the recoil of the 20 is considerably lower than the 12 and the No. 3 buckshot load and slugs are available most places.  The 20 Gauge Youth model with the 20" barrel and interchangeable choke tubes (Use Cylinder choke with buck and slugs) is good for home defense over the counter.  For more open territory the 24" slug barrel with rifle sights might be preferred.

    Get training, especially in the laws of self defense in your locality.  It varies considerably, state to state.

    Geoff
    Who notes here in FL, if they break in, they are fair game.


    Gunsmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 10:24:04 am »
    Springmom: I don't get migraines, Thank God. I can tolerate the .44 fine if I'm more than about 6 feet away; the next booth at the indoor range isn't nearly far enough.

    Geoff: I'm in Texas, as is Springmom, so like you, if someone's in the house, he's ours. I would actually hope that the sight and sound of the shotgun would be enough to convince anyone that he needed to leave in a hurry and work on his victim selection skills, but if not, he'll find out that I have spent a little time and money on using it.

    I agree that it is a good idea to know the laws of your state, since some states are wrongheaded enough to insist that you retreat. I think in most, though, a woman behind her bed with a firearm can give about as good an argument as anyone could hope to that she was in desperate fear for her life.

    Outbreak

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 03:56:45 pm »
    I was looking at the Mossberg 500...Academy has them for $200.  Any thoughts?  (I was really wanting the 'pink' version but it seems it is out of stock everywhere.)

    Tass

    Where, and what gauge and barrel length? I need a shotty!


    ETA: I just found their "Home Defense Shotgun" on the Academy website for $179, available in 12ga and 20ga.
    TexasOutbreak

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    Tass

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 11:15:32 am »
    I was looking for a 20g (and will also check out the 410)  I'm still shopping around, will try to stay out of clothing stores with 25% off signs....for Houston residents:  anyone know where one can get defensive shotgun training? 

    Tass

    springmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 12:02:49 pm »
    I was looking for a 20g (and will also check out the 410)  I'm still shopping around, will try to stay out of clothing stores with 25% off signs....for Houston residents:  anyone know where one can get defensive shotgun training? 

    Tass

    American Shooting Centers has classes.  You might also call Top Gun and see if they know anybody else.

    Jan
    If a thing looks too good to be true, best to shoot it.  Just in case.

    -----Fionna Glenanne, Burn Notice


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    Fred Garvin

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #16 on: December 06, 2008, 09:18:14 pm »
    Just a suggestion on ammo. I keep a Winchester 1300 Home Defender under my side of the bed.(My wife has my .38 Colt Det Spl on her nightstand when we go to bed.) I load my 1300 with #4 shot. At the ranges inside a house this shot size is effective . There are more pellets per round so there is more chances of hitting your target. Also, recoil will be less. Just something to consider.

    springmom

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #17 on: December 06, 2008, 09:48:27 pm »
    Thanks, Fred.  A good thought.

    Jan
    If a thing looks too good to be true, best to shoot it.  Just in case.

    -----Fionna Glenanne, Burn Notice


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    Fredo

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #18 on: December 15, 2008, 07:17:02 pm »
    Just a suggestion on ammo. I keep a Winchester 1300 Home Defender under my side of the bed.(My wife has my .38 Colt Det Spl on her nightstand when we go to bed.) I load my 1300 with #4 shot. At the ranges inside a house this shot size is effective . There are more pellets per round so there is more chances of hitting your target. Also, recoil will be less. Just something to consider.

    I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this recommendation. There has been extensive ballistic testing on various shotgun loads and birdshot has been shown to be insufficient. http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

    http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_4_rem_heavy_dove/gelatin_shot_4.html


    #4 shot out of a 18 inch 12 gauge shotgun at 9 feet penetrated an average of 6.5 inches.

    This is in comparison to the FBI's recommendation of 12 to 18 inches of penetration.

    And this doesn't even take into account factors like clothing.  A leather jacket would absorb alot of the penetration ability.

    The wound from birdshot is likely to be bloody and messy, but not to be very deep.  Do you want to have your life depend on a round that likely doesn't have the power to go deep enough to hit vital organs?

    Unfortunately, if a round penetrates deep enough to be effective on a human, it is likely to go through a wall. TANSTAAFL

    #1 shot also proved to be insufficient.

    #1 shot

    Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 9.0 inches (22.9 cm)


    Possible options for home defence:

    Lead BBs

    Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 11.0 inches (27.9 cm)

    Lead BBs are a definate possible home defence load.  The penetration is a little short of the FBI standard, but is still likely to be sufficient and it creates a huge number of wound tracks.  It is going to lose energy faster than buckshot, but at in-house ranges, that won't be a factor.

    #4 buckshot is the minimum size that the website recommends for general tactical operations.
    http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html


    Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)

    Reduced recoil 00 buck is another good option.
    http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/buck_00_rem_tac/gelatin_buckshot_00_rem_tac.html

    Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 20.5 inches (52.1cm)

    My recommendations:
    #3 buck if you are using a 20 gauge
    BB, #4 buck, #1 buck, or reduced recoil 00 if you are using a 12 gauge.

    I personally think #4 buck is the best for home defence because it maximized the number of potential wound tracks while still penetrating deep enough into the body to hit important stuff. YMMV

    Buy several different loads and find one that patterns well out of your shotgun. Test it at the max range you have inside your house. Who cares if it patterns poorly at 30 yards if the longest straight distance in your house is 30 feet? When you find a load that works well with your gun, buy a case and go get familiar with it.  (If you are really motivated, make your own ballistics jelly and test the terminal ballistics.)
    « Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 07:46:07 pm by Fredo »

    Thernlund

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #19 on: December 15, 2008, 07:29:10 pm »
    Am I missing something?

    He says this...

    I load my 1300 with #4 shot. At the ranges inside a house this shot size is effective .

    Then you say this...

    I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this recommendation.  There has been extensive ballistic testing on various shotgun loads and birdshot has been shown to be insufficient.

    ...

    I personally think #4 is the best for home defence because it maximized the number of potential wound tracks while still penetrating deep enough into the body to hit important stuff.

    Summary:  He says he uses #4 shot, then you say you disagree with that and recommend... #4 shot.

    Or maybe I missed something?  ???


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #20 on: December 15, 2008, 07:44:47 pm »
    Generally when someone says they have loaded #4 shot, they are referring to #4 bird shot.  I am recommending #4 buckshot.  There is a big difference between the 2.

    Sorry about the confusing phrasing.  I modified the post to make my meaning clear.

    Thernlund

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #21 on: December 15, 2008, 09:07:24 pm »
    Ahhhhhhhh.  Now I see.  Pfff.  I feel stupid now (I do know the diff between buck and bird shot).


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

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    Re: Home defense shotgun suggestions
    « Reply #22 on: December 15, 2008, 09:59:26 pm »
    One of my favorite guns!
    I keep her loaded with Federal 00




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