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Weapons and Gear => Shotguns => Topic started by: RMc on October 28, 2015, 01:10:59 pm

Title: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: RMc on October 28, 2015, 01:10:59 pm
  :-\

This is a commercially available load with relatively light recoil.  Perhaps a full choke 18" barrel would make this a viable in house/apartment defensive load.   

Challenger #2 Lead 1 1/8th ounce, 1275 fps. 

#2 Lead = .15" and roughly 5 grains per pellet.  98 pellets in 1.125 ounce.   

Full choke pattern should run roughly 8 inches at 30 feet.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/29163

This is a commercially available load with relatively light recoil.  Perhaps a tightly choked 18" barrel would make this a viable alternative.

Thoughts?





Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Plebian on October 28, 2015, 03:11:17 pm
The penetration will be a bit lacking compared to larger shot/buckshot sizes, but It would likely work in most instances.

I know #2 will wreck a coyote out to about 50 yards, but I would worry about it getting enough penetration against folks in heavy winter coats/clothing.

Is there any reason you cannot pick up #4 buckshot OR the classic 00 buck? Many folks offer low recoil 00 buck that my small wife handles just fine out of an 870 12 gauge.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on October 28, 2015, 03:21:44 pm
The problem is too much penetration if the environment is an apartment.

Wouldn't #4 or 00 be too much penetration?
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Plebian on October 28, 2015, 03:52:13 pm
The problem is too much penetration if the environment is an apartment.

Wouldn't #4 or 00 be too much penetration?

Well, the projectile must penetrate enough to get to the vitals for reliable stops. Like I stated above, I think heavy coats/clothing MIGHT lower the penetration of #2 enough to make it not reach the vitals.

I would also state that nearly any projectile(in the speed range of most shotguns) that can reach the vitals of a human(especially one in heavy clothing) will easily pass through multiple sheets of drywall.

I do agree that 00 buck is more of a concern involving over penetration. That is not the main reason I run #4 buck myself tho. I run the smaller pellet size simply for more damage potential, 9 holes versus 27 holes. The environment of Oklahoma also means thick coats are not normally encountered as well. So less worry about the small pellets having adequate penetration.   
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: only1asterisk on October 28, 2015, 04:59:22 pm
If you want a specialized indoor load you might consider Remington  2 3/4 Express  Long Range lead BB load.  Penetration is about 11" in calibrated gelatin.  3.5" pattern at yards. 
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: only1asterisk on October 28, 2015, 05:04:24 pm
A miss indoor with any 12ga load will go though an a interior  wall easily and most will penetration and exterior wall most of the time in new construction. 
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on October 28, 2015, 05:16:37 pm
http://madogre.com/?p=5304

Quote
The smallest you should use for defense in any situation is BB Shot.  Even in an Apartment or close packed trailer park.  And even then, I’d suggest #4 Buck.  The shell should also be “High Brass”.  Trap loads have aluminum bases with very short heads… During firing in some guns, that little bit of aluminum will expand out and create a lock ring in your chamber making ejection very difficult or it could jam the gun, requiring some serious pounding to get it unstuck.   I’ve seen that in many shotguns using that cheap ammo.  You want big pellets and high brass.  And quite frankly, the bigger the better.  Police agencies across the nation and around the world who use shotguns, use 00 Buck for a reason.   Go ask your local Sheriff’s what they recommend for shotguns or what they use.   Some may use Regular or #4 Buck… I know some that used to use 000 Buck before switching to rifles.  But the great majority use 00 Buck.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: RMc on October 30, 2015, 04:47:06 pm
Well, as I expected, there was not much discussion of the 1 1/8 ounce Canadian #2 lead shotshell and some, support for heavy field (1 1/4 ounce) lead BB loads.  Frankly, I would not deliberately choose any "numbered" birdshot size for defensive use.  Nonetheless, from the many internet discussions on "defensive birdshot," one could surmise there are a lot of people do indeed depend on Birdshot for home defense.

Given the apparent interest in limiting excessive penetration in shotshell defense ammunition, what seems to be lacking in commercial offerings is a selection of one to 1 1/8 ounce loads at target load velocities with a payload of "T" size lead buckshot! Yes, even SAAMI recognizes size "T" as buckshot*. 

So let's see how this would work out.  One ounce of .20" T-Buck would have 38 pellets @ 12 grains each.  Such a load, even at 1100 fps would seem to fit the bill for a low recoil, moderate penetration round for defense at in the home ranges.

Agree or disagree?




*   http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=b
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: seanp on October 30, 2015, 05:00:39 pm
Late to the game, but...

I would not scoff at a #2 lead shot load at apartment distances.  The biggest room in my house is 12 feet long.  Our open concept living room/kitchen is maybe 25?  Even out of an open choke, a blast of #2 lead shot at 25 feet is not going to have the target sneeze and walk away.  At that range even the wad would make a dent in his forehead.

And Challenger ammo is fun.  It's neat to reload the clear plastic cases and see what is happening with your load
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: seanp on October 30, 2015, 05:02:42 pm
BTW, Challenger loads (or used to load) a Brenneke slug which is awesome on deer and black bear and cheap, too.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: RMc on November 04, 2015, 01:58:23 am
Late to the game, but...

I would not scoff at a #2 lead shot load at apartment distances.  The biggest room in my house is 12 feet long.  Our open concept living room/kitchen is maybe 25?  Even out of an open choke, a blast of #2 lead shot at 25 feet is not going to have the target sneeze and walk away.  At that range even the wad would make a dent in his forehead.

And Challenger ammo is fun.  It's neat to reload the clear plastic cases and see what is happening with your load

I would not feel unarmed with a load of #2 shot shot in tube at home defense ranges.  However, bump the shot size to lead T buck...
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Mississippi556 on November 05, 2015, 05:00:17 pm
Federal Premium has a Flite Control Heavy Coyote 3" Magnum load that might fill the bill.  I think it is BB size, not sure.  Recoil will obviously not be mild, though.

The apartment dweller does have a dilemma.  Enough penetration to insure damage to the vitals is enough penetration to possibly harm neighbors if all shot does not go into the intended target.

I am grateful that I live on 19 acres in the country with just my wife (empty nesters), unless we have house guests.  I will know where she is if something goes bump in the night.  So, I will not be concerned about over penetration of buckshot. 
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on November 05, 2015, 05:40:15 pm
Federal Premium has a Flite Control Heavy Coyote 3" Magnum load that might fill the bill.  I think it is BB size, not sure.  Recoil will obviously not be mild, though.

The apartment dweller does have a dilemma.  Enough penetration to insure damage to the vitals is enough penetration to possibly harm neighbors if all shot does not go into the intended target.

I am grateful that I live on 19 acres in the country with just my wife (empty nesters), unless we have house guests.  I will know where she is if something goes bump in the night.  So, I will not be concerned about over penetration of buckshot.

You are lucky. With that kind of environment, you could use a M1A for home defense as long as you knew where your wife was in the home. I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't  ;).
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: GeorgeHill on November 05, 2015, 06:03:09 pm
Federal Premium has a Flite Control Heavy Coyote 3" Magnum load that might fill the bill. 
With a 12 foot distance, might as well be using a .45-70!
That's not going to open up in the slightest.  And yes, I do think I remember that being BB Shot, or BBB. 
In such tight quarters - you are probably better of NOT using an FC shell.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Grant on November 05, 2015, 06:11:20 pm
You are lucky. With that kind of environment, you could use a M1A for home defense as long as you knew where your wife was in the home. I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't  ;).

30 round magazine in an AK work?  ;)

Because I live out in the middle of nowhere, I load with #4 buck for pellet density.

A friend in the middle of town and 4 kids loads with #8 birdshot...........I really disagree with that, but he says the farthest shot he will ever take in his house is 25 feet.  And if the first shot doesn't stop him he's got 4 more in the tube and he can probably confuse him until it does stop him.    :shrug

   
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on November 05, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
30 round magazine in an AK work?  ;)

Because I live out in the middle of nowhere, I load with #4 buck for pellet density.

A friend in the middle of town and 4 kids loads with #8 birdshot...........I really disagree with that, but he says the farthest shot he will ever take in his house is 25 feet.  And if the first shot doesn't stop him he's got 4 more in the tube and he can probably confuse him until it does stop him.    :shrug

 

That's a cool theory. There are other theories out there about how a pneumothorax, hypovolemic shock, and physical systemic failure can also stop someone. But not kinda stop them. Mechanically stop them for sure, whether they want to or not. If we can stop someone by hurting them a little or by confusing them, then I'm all for it. But if that's the case then it is taser, pepper spray, or strobe light time. Not gun time. If it's gun time then it's lethal force time, not lightly annoy and confuse them (I.e. nonlethal force time).

Forgive me for being snarky  :neener.

Eta: 30 rounds in an AK will work. Fact. You are also my hero for choosing the AK over the AR  :thumbup1. Urban legend has it that sometimes just yelling "wolverines!" Is enough to make most home invaders flee without ever firing a shot from ones AK. I consider this a plus.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: only1asterisk on November 05, 2015, 09:40:22 pm
While it is true that smaller shot lack the people penetration of buckshot, I want don't want to be shot with a trap load either.  While the wound from a light load of small shot may not be the decisive stopper you dream about, having a 1"x4" plug taken out you isn't my idea of a good time. 

I'll alway prefer a round more capable of making a CNS or hydraulic stop, but if are going to depend on secondary stopping factors there are worse things.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on November 05, 2015, 09:42:46 pm
While it is true that smaller shot lack the people penetration of buckshot, I want don't want to be shot with a trap load either.  While the wound from a light load of small shot may not be the decisive stopper you dream about, having a 1"x4" plug taken out you isn't my idea of a good time. 

I'll alway prefer a round more capable of making a CNS or hydraulic stop, but if are going to depend on secondary stopping factors there are worse things.

True. I imagine even being shot with 7 1/2 birdshot would be worse than .22 lr. I hope to never have to find out.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Grant on November 05, 2015, 10:25:55 pm
That's a cool theory. There are other theories out there about how a pneumothorax, hypovolemic shock, and physical systemic failure can also stop someone. But not kinda stop them. Mechanically stop them for sure, whether they want to or not. If we can stop someone by hurting them a little or by confusing them, then I'm all for it. But if that's the case then it is taser, pepper spray, or strobe light time. Not gun time. If it's gun time then it's lethal force time, not lightly annoy and confuse them (I.e. nonlethal force time).

Forgive me for being snarky  :neener.

Eta: 30 rounds in an AK will work. Fact. You are also my hero for choosing the AK over the AR  :thumbup1. Urban legend has it that sometimes just yelling "wolverines!" Is enough to make most home invaders flee without ever firing a shot from ones AK. I consider this a plus.
Lol.  I hope that works.     

And I do agree on the twelve gauge, but whenever I mention anything similar it's "But I'll kill my kids with 00 buck and the neighbors dog".......he's a little bit of a fudd in that aspect.    His friend the former sheriff (sheriff in the early 90's) recommended that to him and since he was a "lawman" the answer was gospel.

 
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on November 05, 2015, 11:03:53 pm
Lol.  I hope that works.     

And I do agree on the twelve gauge, but whenever I mention anything similar it's "But I'll kill my kids with 00 buck and the neighbors dog".......he's a little bit of a fudd in that aspect.    His friend the former sheriff (sheriff in the early 90's) recommended that to him and since he was a "lawman" the answer was gospel.

 

There is nothing that infuriates me more than people who take "Dr. They" and "cop friend" advice as gospel.

Especially when people ask "cop friend" of the legality of something instead of taking matters into their own hands and looking at the fluffing state penal code  :bash :bash :bash :bash :bash  :banghead :banghead :banghead.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: Chief45 on November 06, 2015, 09:35:03 am
There are a lot of people that read the law, statutes, codes and regulations, the same way they read their Bibles.   pick out something here, pick out something there, take things out of context, give it a slight twist to apply it to something that it does not pertain to and then make it sound and say the way they want it to.


There is nothing that infuriates me more than people who take "Dr. They" and "cop friend" advice as gospel.

Especially when people ask "cop friend" of the legality of something instead of taking matters into their own hands and looking at the fluffing state penal code  :bash :bash :bash :bash :bash  :banghead :banghead :banghead.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: RMc on November 07, 2015, 11:05:33 am
Federal Premium has a Flite Control Heavy Coyote 3" Magnum load that might fill the bill.  I think it is BB size, not sure. Recoil will obviously not be mild, though.

The apartment dweller does have a dilemma.  Enough penetration to insure damage to the vitals is enough penetration to possibly harm neighbors if all shot does not go into the intended target.
 

Precisely the point!  The available factory loads, (such as the 12 GA Heavy Magnum® Coyote BB 3"), are heavy recoil hunting loads.

http://www.hornady.com/store/12-GA-Heavy-Magnum-Coyote-BB-3/

Where are the low recoil lead BB to T (.18" to .20" pellet) defense loads?

Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: ZeroTA on November 07, 2015, 08:48:19 pm
I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

Going in my sig line.

In an apartment, man, I'd toe the line as close as possible and at least move up to BB. As stated, I'm just not sold on birdshot against winter clothes. But then your other options are "don't miss" or move to the country.

Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: MTK20 on November 07, 2015, 11:07:49 pm
Going in my sig line.

In an apartment, man, I'd toe the line as close as possible and at least move up to BB. As stated, I'm just not sold on birdshot against winter clothes. But then your other options are "don't miss" or move to the country.

I appreciate the quote!  :thumbup1

Funny story, I believe my father accidentally took some bird shot when someone was teaching their wife how to use a shotgun. IIRC he said there was no penetration, but he lived in Wisconsin at the time and it was winter time.

Going to have to ask him to clear up the story for me. I can't imagine bird shot not penetrating at all through multiple coats.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: ZeroTA on November 08, 2015, 12:27:53 am
Lol.  I hope that works.     

And I do agree on the twelve gauge, but whenever I mention anything similar it's "But I'll kill my kids with 00 buck and the neighbors dog".......he's a little bit of a fudd in that aspect.    His friend the former sheriff (sheriff in the early 90's) recommended that to him and since he was a "lawman" the answer was gospel.

 

LEO's (not the ones on this board) have IME not been subject matter experts on guns, ballistics, or in some cases even the law. When concealed carry was illegal here in IL, I got several different opinions on just how illegal it actually was or wasn't.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: ZeroTA on November 08, 2015, 12:38:20 am
Going to have to ask him to clear up the story for me. I can't imagine bird shot not penetrating at all through multiple coats.

Birdshot is a bunch of super light projectiles going relatively fast for their size. Light objects don't take much to slow down. Now I've not seen it in person but I can pretty well suppose that birdshot at a decent distance isn't going to zip merrily through a Carhartt coat, at least one thick shirt and a tee shirt. It'll go through but it's going to shed a lot of velocity. It might even penetrate a couple inches if it misses bone. Not a fun day but hardly a showstopper if someone is determined to stay in the fight.
Title: Re: #2 Lead shot and home/apartment defense?
Post by: only1asterisk on November 08, 2015, 09:23:19 pm
I've seen a field load fully penetrate the exterior wall of a home.  Of course, the range was 10 feet.  Every year it seems someone in the local area is peppered during dove season.  It is almost always the face that takes the most damage.  I think this is where the birdshot stopping jacket is most effective (30-40 yards).