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Author Topic: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!  (Read 11304 times)

RMc

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1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
« on: October 03, 2015, 09:33:01 pm »
In this film, the shotshells tested were Federal plastic hull 00B 9 pellet rounds - roll crimp, no shotcup and no buffer.

Also notice the 870 shotguns shown in the pattern testing sequence do not have the pedestal mounted bead sight that is currently used and this appears to result in high pattern placement.

What are your thoughts on today's buckshot pattern performance vs that of the 1970s?

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 09:38:08 pm »
    I think the stuff you see today provides way, way tighter patterns, extending the effective range of shot rounds by quite a bit.
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 10:26:53 pm »
      I smell cheese! Sgt. Buttchin sure liked to dangle his finger on the trigger.
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 11:56:51 pm »
    I think the stuff you see today provides way, way tighter patterns, extending the effective range of shot rounds by quite a bit.

    Estate, Rio and Nobel brand buckshot are essentially the same as the 1970 vintage Federal buckshot rounds used in the video pattern tests. That is, roll crimped with no shot cup or buffer.  :hmm
    Alabama

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 12:11:10 am »
    Okay, some of the stuff you see today.
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    MTK20

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 01:02:32 am »
    That guys trigger discipline was bad, but that was cool as hell! thanks for sharing!

    George has written about it before and I have personally wondered about it myself, why did we switch out the 870 for the AR-15? We can argue capacity with the handguns, but I don't think the cops were ill equipped back then even by today's standards.

    ETA: Btw, YouTube comment win: "Does that gun belt require those sideburns?"
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 01:26:46 am »
    That guys trigger discipline was bad, but that was cool as hell! thanks for sharing!

    George has written about it before and I have personally wondered about it myself, why did we switch out the 870 for the AR-15? We can argue capacity with the handguns, but I don't think the cops were ill equipped back then even by today's standards.

    ETA: Btw, YouTube comment win: "Does that gun belt require those sideburns?"

    I would assume more cops are familiar with the AR platform these days than shotguns TBH.

    It also might make the bean counters feel better with one stray round flying about instead of many stray rounds, OR it could just be a fad.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 01:31:35 am »
    George has written about it before and I have personally wondered about it myself, why did we switch out the 870 for the AR-15? We can argue capacity with the handguns, but I don't think the cops were ill equipped back then even by today's standards.

    ETA: Btw, YouTube comment win: "Does that gun belt require those sideburns?"
    So basically the video is saying that Cops need to use tighter patterning shells and a Sling. 
     :hmm
    I concur.
    Why did cops change from Shotguns to Rifles?  Because of an incident in Florida.
    http://www.flhsmv.gov/fhp/Memorial/Crooks/CrooksNewsArticles.htm
    A Bad Guy with an SKS killed two Police Officers... That story flooded the country.  Pretty much after that incident, Bad Guys snapped up all the SKS rifles they could.  I remember seeing SKS rifles everywhere and after that incident, all the SKS rifles were bought up. 
    Richmond PD, Henrico County, Hanover County all started switching over to AR-15's and leaving the Shotgun behind.
     


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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 02:14:19 am »
    I read quite a bit of that (although I don't think I got half way through the page, that was a lot!).

    Does it ever say the distance that they were engaged at with the sks (I'm still trying to grasp how the old pump guns left them under equipped)? If anything made LEO's transition to rifles, I would've guessed the north Hollywood shoot out :shrug (memory recalls they were being fired on from distance and could've really used more rifles in that incident).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 02:32:34 am »
    I read quite a bit of that (although I don't think I got half way through the page, that was a lot!).

    Does it ever say the distance that they were engaged at with the sks (I'm still trying to grasp how the old pump guns left them under equipped)? If anything made LEO's transition to rifles, I would've guessed the north Hollywood shoot out :shrug (memory recalls they were being fired on from distance and could've really used more rifles in that incident).
    That happened after this event... and by that time - all the thugs were going for SKS's and SKS's became hard to find.  Again - this was before the North Hollywood event.  And a week before North Hollywood, there was a big bank robbery in Richmond where the Bad Guy was running an AR-15, killed a teller and shot a Bank Guard.  A bank guard that worked for me.  It was ugly.  There was a video report that showed me standing at the scene with the FBI... The bank was disaster zone inside.  Blood everywhere.  Outside, the Officer's car looked like a wreck from Blackwater Training... completely riddled.   
    http://www.richmond.com/news/article_c256bf4d-1e33-5462-aa3c-7301255b6603.html
    The wounded guard was shot through the head and blinded... but lived.
    About a week later, North Hollywood happened.  It had helicopter video so it took the limelight away from Nations Bank.
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 07:31:38 am »
    North Hollywood was the tipping point for getting ARs. I would have liked to seen these asshats getting hammered with slugs from shotguns with rifle sights but all they had was buckshot.

    I laughed when he said a pitch black warehouse was the perfect place to deploy a shotgun with no light on it. So much for identifying your target. Just hammer it to hell or whatever he said.  :shrug
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 11:39:47 am »
    I just watched the video.  It was both amusing and sad at the same time.  See, in the first scenario shown, the one that told us why shotguns are the devil...  In that exact scenario, I would have no reservations about deploying my shotgun.  MY shotgun, loaded with shells that I have personally tested.  I know what that brand/type of shells will do, and I have a piece of cardboard that proves it.  I have no doubt that my gun/shell combination would have kept every pellet on the perp.

    The points raised would seem to be a (lack of) training issue, and yet rather than teach officers to pattern their weapons and use a bit of sense when taking a shot, the video advises them that a shotgun is a liability in almost every situation.  Real smart.

    I am so glad I got to miss the '70s.



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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 12:10:35 pm »
    North Hollywood was the tipping point for getting ARs.
    Out west, it was.
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 02:16:36 pm »
      I don't know why, but after watching this video, I wanted to watch the old TV mini-series, "The Blue Knight" w/ William Holden. "Bumper" Morgan, a class act. Excellent Mini-Series!



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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 02:29:51 pm »
    Training time is a huge factor. It takes a lot of dedication to run a pump shotgun effectively. It's cumbersome and slow to load and the manual of arms isn't the simpliest. It's also not the death ray people think it is.

    I'm not saying it's a bad weapon I'm saying that it takes a lot more dedication than loading it up and sticking it in a cruiser rack and never working with it. A rifle is, IMHO, better due to the low recoil, large capacity, and range advantage, and easy optics mounting capability.

    Remember most police officers only shoot a little bit. They have a basic qualification course that is shot maybe a couple times a year. It's easier IMHO to develop a basic proficiency with the rifle than a shotgun when you consider the time you have to dedicate to training.

    Note that the Stakeout Squad in NYC employed shotguns to good effect in close crowded stores but Jim Crillo said he preferred the M1 Carbine over the shotgun, IIRC.





    « Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:04:05 pm by Avenger29 »
    South Carolina
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 09:50:43 pm »
    So we see the Universal Gun being pushed into the role of a specialized niche weapon.
     :hmm
    I disagree.
    However I do agree that the Shotgun needs specific training, and a lot of training, and should require a more specialized qualification course for Law Enforcement.   Birdshot, #4 Buck, 00 Buck, and Slugs.   Should all be trained with and practiced with. 
    The Shotgun became Specialized when people basically just said "00 Buck Only".  That's like having a Drill Press with only 1 sized drill bit. 
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 10:20:47 pm »
    Never understood the "00 buck only" doctrine.

    Just a personal opinion, but #4 buckshot is under rated.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 10:33:50 pm »
    Never understood the "00 buck only" doctrine.

    Just a personal opinion, but #4 buckshot is under rated.

    I like #4 buck.

    Another thing to think on, is that in those days, many departments just purchased bulk lots of buckshot, no testing or patterning was really done, it was whomever normally provided the ammunition, leading to large patterns.

      Every shotguns different and some shotguns may have spread shot badly, some wouldn't have  :shrug 

    For instance, I tried Federal and Winchesters #1 buck loads?   spread like they were hand grenades.  Gave them to a friend...."normal" sized patterns  :shrug
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 03:32:37 pm »
    The FBI uses #4 Buck.
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #19 on: October 07, 2015, 11:55:36 pm »
    Federal buckshot loads were at the back of the technical improvement line in the 1970s.
     
    By the close of the decade Federal buckshot shells had granulated plastic buffer and fold crimps.

    Federal introduced its Premium line of buckshot in 1984, these buffered loads had a "spiral" pellet stack, copper plated shot and a plastic shotcup. Federal advertised patterns under 15 inches at 40 yards from full choke shotguns.

    Shortly after the turn of the century, the revolutionary Flite Control wad was introduced to the Federal buckshot line. For the first time the police cylinder bore "riot gun" could be relied on to fire tight patterns as George Hill aptly demonstrates in this video:


     
    Alabama

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 12:43:54 pm »
    Federal buckshot loads were at the back of the technical improvement line in the 1970s.
     
    By the close of the decade Federal buckshot shells had granulated plastic buffer and fold crimps.

    Federal introduced its Premium line of buckshot in 1984, these buffered loads had a "spiral" pellet stack, copper plated shot and a plastic shotcup. Federal advertised patterns under 15 inches at 40 yards from full choke shotguns.

    Shortly after the turn of the century, the revolutionary Flite Control wad was introduced to the Federal buckshot line. For the first time the police cylinder bore "riot gun" could be relied on to fire tight patterns as George Hill aptly demonstrates in this video:



    Truth.  I completely agree.  Flite Control is a game changer.  At probable maximum home defense distance of 15 yards, 9 pellet 2-3/4" full power 00B is all within a 4" circle, and is within a 10 to 11" circle at 50 yards, from a common improved cylinder choke.  You have to aim that stuff, not just point.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 04:33:59 pm »
    It was shocking to all of us that were on site during that video... just how tight the patterns were all the way out to 40 yards where we finally had a couple pellets go off the target. 
    HAD I AIMED LOWER - those pellets would have still been on target.  The last shot at 50 yards - same story.  The pellets really didn't spread out any farther.   
    Federal Flight Control 00 Buck is a 50 yard load. 
    Now - My only question is this.  How much energy would those pellets have at 50 yards?  Would that still be a stopper?  Shot Loads really lose a lot of energy at distance... But I think at 50 a hit from a FFC shell would be a fight stopper.  I don't know for sure - I've had to shoot anyone at 50 yards with buckshot.  But I feel very confident it's still good at that range.
    So I don't think you would have to transfer to a Slug unless the target is beyond 50 yards.   
    This is impressive.  Because so many people have told me over the years that if it's past 20 to 25 yards, go with slugs. 
    No, no thanks.  I'll stick with FFC 00 Buck until past 50 yards. 
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 06:35:10 pm »
    Perhaps this documented 55 yard shot at a standing mule deer with Federal Flite Control 00B will shed some light on real world penetration. 

    The shot footage is just after frame 5:30

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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 06:47:06 pm »
     :hmm
    That's excellent penetration at that range.  Far beyond the intended range. 
    His pattern was much wider than results we had with the shotgun used in that test video above.   I think that shotgun was my 870 Police Trade In gun I snagged for crazy cheap. 
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    Re: 1970s Police Training Shotgun vs Revolver - Wide Patterns!
    « Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 07:34:17 pm »
    His pattern was much wider than results we had with the shotgun used in that test video above.   I think that shotgun was my 870 Police Trade In gun I snagged for crazy cheap. 
    That video is also far better than what I am able to get with my guns.  My Benelli and coach gun both get about a 10" pattern at 25 yards.  Still better than with cheap, green-hulled Remington, (which doubles the pattern size in the Benelli) but nowhere near pinpoint accurate.  Attached is a pattern board from the Benelli:




    It is worth noting that the main grouping is about half that size, but that is because I started at 10 yards and worked back.  The scattered flyers to the left are not flyers, so much as getting the click sights adjusted correctly, by the last shot.



    Kaso

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