Author Topic: French rifle questions (Read 8232 times)

Penguin · « **on:** February 23, 2013, 07:27:50 pm »

So I was talking guns the other day and got into a rather lengthy discussion of post WW2 weapons development when it dawned on me, I have no idea what rifle the French went with post WW2. I can't imagine that they stuck with a bolt gun all the way untill they adopted the FAMAS. But I don't know what they were using. I must admit I don't know much about French guns. They have never caught my interest like US, Russian, Canadian and, Australian guns.

So the question is what was their post WW2 rifle? I am guessing it wasn't something that was chambered in the 7.62 NATO round like the M-14, L1A1, C1, FAL and, G3 which are the post WW2 NATO guns I am aware of.

Which begs another question, post WW2 did France join NATO? If I am not mistaken they are a memeber now. If they didn't join imeditly why not?

WeTheArmed.com

Nightcrawler · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:35:44 pm »

They used the MAS-36 bolt-action rifle until the end of the 1940s, when the semi-automatic MAS-49 became the standard. It later evolved until the MAS-49/56, I think.

Direct gas impingement semiautomatic battle rifles, with ten-round detachable box magazines, firing the proprietary 7.5mm French rifle cartridge.

Il Rob · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:40:23 pm »

Quote

Which begs another question, post WW2 did France join NATO? If I am not mistaken they are a memeber now. If they didn't join imeditly why not?

You are mistaken; the French are NOT in NATO. They were a charter member, but De Gaulle pulled them out. I think that was about '68 or so.

The MAS 49, nice rifle. Peep sight, 10 round detachable mag. Scope rail on the side (good luck finding a scope mount that works though).

Rob

Penguin · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:42:30 pm »

Thanks for the information so far.

How does that 7.5mm round stack up to other rounds like say the 7.62 NATO round or the 5.56?

Il Rob · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:47:19 pm »

Huh, scratch that, Wikipedia says France rejoined in 2009. Learn something new everyday.

Rob

ksuguy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:53:45 pm »

Quote from: Penguin on February 23, 2013, 07:42:30 pm

Thanks for the information so far. How does that 7.5mm round stack up to other rounds like say the 7.62 NATO round or the 5.56?

Very similar to the 7.62 Nato or the 7.5 Swiss. AIM surplus sells some if you happen to have a French rifle lying around.

About 10-12 years ago there were quite a few surplus MAS 49/56's on the market. Some had been converted to 7.62x51 with varying degrees of success.

Il Rob · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:55:28 pm »

Well, my older Cartridges of the World (7th Edition) states "same class as the .30-40 Krag or .303 British", so I guess it would fair to say it's a step behind the 7.62 NATO. CotW lists the military load as 140 grains 2600 fps at the muzzle. It does use a .308 caliber bullet.

Ammo was pretty rare before Prvi Partizan started loading it. Of course, you could say that about a lot of cartridges.

Here is the Prvi load:

http://www.prvipartizan.com/search_a.php

"830 m/s" is about 2700 fps in American (I think)

Oh, and it should be noted a lot of Mas 49/56 were converted to 7.62 NATO when they were imported. These have the reputation of not running very well. Probably should stick to the 7.5 MAS ones.

Rob

Omaha In June · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2013, 08:03:04 pm »

During and after WWII, the U.S. supplied the French w/ our weapons. Although they still had the MAS 36 bolt. They did come up w/ the MAS 49 and shortly after updated to the 49/56, which was shorter and lighter. They had this rifle through their time in Vietnam until eventfully the FAMAS took over.

I had one a 49/56 for a short time. It was rebored from 7.5 to 7.62x51. I bought it as soon as I turned 18 when surplus firearms were plentiful and cheap. The first time I shot it, it went burst mode on me, shooting 2 and 3 round bursts. I was at first astonished and then happy. But after the first couple of pulls, it settled down. I never figured it out why it did that. I didn't keep it long. I traded it in for something American.

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Penguin · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2013, 09:10:30 pm »

Thanks every one again. I don't have one. I am not thinking about getting one. My gun fund is pretty broke at the moment. Mostly I just wanted to learn something new. I have an interest in military history and small arms development and this was a huge hole in my knowlage.

Quote from: Omaha In June on February 23, 2013, 08:03:04 pm

I had one a 49/56 for a short time. It was rebored from 7.5 to 7.62x51. I bought it as soon as I turned 18 when surplus firearms were plentiful and cheap. The first time I shot it, it went burst mode on me, shooting 2 and 3 round bursts. I was at first astonished and then happy. But after the first couple of pulls, it settled down. I never figured it out why it did that. I didn't keep it long. I traded it in for something American.

Now that I know what to look for and read about.

It apears to me from my early reading that the problem probably was soft comercial primers. Aparently the military ammo had harder primers and with comercial ammo it isn't uncommon to get a slam fire like that as the fireing pin is rather robust and heavy and can keep travaling forward after the bolt closes. I have read they made titanium firing pins to help aleviate that problem. Aparently that and the fact that century did a hit an miss job of converting them to 308 are the only real problems with them.

Other than that is looks like they were good relible rifles. I find it interisting that france would adopt such a rifle. Had I been a post WW2 gun designer this is not what I would have come up with. But that is just an interisting mental excercise. I do find the fact that the mag catch is on the magazine rather than the rifle interisting.

Grant · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2013, 09:31:41 pm »

Aim just ran out of 7.5 French a couple weeks ago and said no more coming.

I felt bad because even with my cash crunch I was gonna sell stuff and get a half a case for whenever I can get a French gun. Ammo is still around from PRVI and reloadable too so not a HUGE deal.

Il Rob · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2013, 10:48:24 pm »

Quote

Other than that is looks like they were good relible rifles. I find it interisting that france would adopt such a rifle. Had I been a post WW2 gun designer this is not what I would have come up with. But that is just an interisting mental excercise. I do find the fact that the mag catch is on the magazine rather than the rifle interisting.

Well, the MAS 49 was really designed before the war. In fact, once the Germans were kicked out, the French put it in limited production. This is called the MAS 44. It was really a contemporaneous design to the Belgian FN-49. Legend has it the FN-49 was ready for the war was offered to the British by Dieudonne Saive, but was rejected.

Rob

mwcoleburn · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2013, 02:10:49 am »

Nice think about surplus french guns, they've never been fired, and only dropped once

I can't believe no one made that joke on this thread first...

Coronach · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2013, 03:04:32 am »

*rimshot*

The French actually still use the MAS 36, sort of, in the form of the FR F1 and FR F2. The bolt design is the same, and the receiver design is highly similar. It's not the same rifle, but you could term it a very direct evolution of the old warhorse.

Mike

Lupinus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:15:48 am »

Quote from: mwcoleburn on February 24, 2013, 02:10:49 am

Nice think about surplus french guns, they've never been fired, and only dropped once

I can't believe no one made that joke on this thread first...

But do they come with flag lug still attached?

Langenator · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2013, 12:47:28 pm »

Quote from: mwcoleburn on February 24, 2013, 02:10:49 am

Nice think about surplus french guns, they've never been fired, and only dropped once

They didn't run at Verdun...370,000 casualties between Feb-Dec 1916. Inflicted 330,000 on the Germans. The ground is still distorted from the shelling, almost 100 years later.

Now, shortly thereafter, large chunks of the French army refused to man their trenches...

FMJ · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2013, 01:18:28 pm »

For a long time I couldn't the difference between the MAS-49 and the FN-49. I think the FN is the better one of the two, lol.

JesseL · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2013, 01:27:13 pm »

I've said it before: Belgium is everything France ought to be.

mnw42 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:27:34 pm »

I had a 49/56 (i regret letting that one go) and I currently have a MAS 36 - both in the original 7.5x54mm MAS.

The 36 is a very good rifle and very accurate.

The 49/56 was a very good, though a bit odd. The rifle started development before the war and was the result of self-loading rifles developed in 1917 and '20s. The Mle. 1940 (what would become the MAS 49) was slated for trials before production before the German invasion.

Rifles converted (by Century) to .308 are generally problematic for a few reasons. First, the .308 is hotter than the original French chambering. This coupled with the shortened gas tube and barrel (CAI simply chopped the barrel and tube then re-cut the camber) means the rifle is over gassed. Finally, .308 is smaller in diameter than 7.5 French. This means that the feed-lips and extractor/breach-face geometry are far from ideal. You can make them function well, but it requires some work.

The firing pin is over-built and free floating leading to the propensity for it to slam fire. I solved this by using only CCI #34 primers and seating them .004-.005" below the case head.
Mine was very accurate, reliable, and soft shooting.

FMJ · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:35:15 pm »

Does it have anything to do with this rifle?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusil_Automatique_Mod%C3%A8le_1917

mnw42 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2013, 03:48:09 pm »

They are unrelated, but it did serve as a proof of concept. The development and use of the M1917/18 rifles certainly influenced later designs. There wasn't a lot of money to replace the massive numbers of rifles manufactured during WWI with a new and expensive new arm. The 36 was meant to be an inexpensive stop-gap until a suitable new rifle was developed.

MichaelZWilliamson · « **Reply #20 on:** February 26, 2013, 01:27:16 am »

I have a 36 and a sporter 36.

The only downside is there's no way to rebore for an easier caliber. You have to rebarrel entirely.

The sporter is a fantastic little hunting carbine, if only ammo were more available.

akodo · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2013, 05:37:01 pm »

Quote from: Langenator on February 25, 2013, 12:47:28 pm

They didn't run at Verdun...370,000 casualties between Feb-Dec 1916. Inflicted 330,000 on the Germans. The ground is still distorted from the shelling, almost 100 years later.

Now, shortly thereafter, large chunks of the French army refused to man their trenches...

Natural Selection. Everyone with the brave gene died. Cowards were left to repopulate

Jokes aside, the French were a very militaristic people for hundreds of years. It was only after their huge losses of WW 1 that they turned over a new leaf.

Penguin · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2013, 05:54:54 pm »

Quote from: akodo on February 27, 2013, 05:37:01 pm

Natural Selection. Everyone with the brave gene died. Cowards were left to repopulate

Jokes aside, the French were a very militaristic people for hundreds of years.

Interisting. I was not aware of that. I knew that had fought lots of wars frequantly against Britian but, that doesn't nesseraly mean you are militaristic.

Langenator · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2013, 07:43:04 pm »

The British, the Hapsburgs...pretty much all of Europe under Napoleon. They still send troops out into their former colonies in Africa fairly frequently, although a lot of that is the Legion.

But yeah, WWI taught them the lesson that defense was the way to fight a war.

mnw42 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:18:11 pm »

MAS36 can also only be zeroed by replacing the rear sight leaf. Thankfully Numrich & Sarco both list the leafs by graduation.

Here's mine: