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Author Topic: Win 94 not extracting  (Read 4273 times)

cpaspr

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Win 94 not extracting
« on: June 06, 2016, 01:16:17 am »
I have recently acquired a new-to-me 1951 manufactured Winchester 94 in .30-30.   :D

It's well oiled, and I made sure the barrel was clean.

I ran a box of Federal 150gr rounds through it this afternoon.  18 of the 20 rounds failed to extract.   >:(   I had to pull each shell out with my fingernail.  When I got home I found that there was a bit of crud in the hole above the chamber that the extractor goes into when the gun is ready to fire.  I cleaned it out, but I don't think that was the source of the problem.  There just didn't seem to be that much there. I think the extractor simply wasn't springing down over the lip of the shell.

Any ideas or things to check first?
Oregon

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #1 on: June 06, 2016, 10:20:33 am »
    The extractor its self.   It needs to have a sharp edge that wont slip off the case head.  It needs proper tension. 
    If there is a question... they are cheap enough and simple enough to replace.
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    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #2 on: June 06, 2016, 07:44:04 pm »
    Simple?  Looks like I'll have to take the rifle completely apart.
    Oregon

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 08:17:44 pm »
    Not completely.
    Mostly...
     ;)
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    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 03:07:11 am »
    Been looking at a bunch of schematics, and reading and watching videos on disassembly.

    And then . . . . pulled the gun out to look at it again, and noticed that when the bolt is all the way back I can see and access the extractor pin.  A simple tap with a hammer on the correct size drift pin and voila!  Removed the extractor without any disassembly of other parts of the gun!

    Looks pretty clean.  I lightly stoned the inside of the hook.  Reinstalled it and tested it with some previously fired (in a different gun) PMC brass.  The gun or guns those three shels had been fired in apparently had slightly larger chambers, as the shells needed a little push to go all the way in to the chamber and close the bolt.  No matter, the extractor worked fine.  Ditto on a previously sized WW shell.  Retry the Federals from this weekend.  Nope.  Still refusing to extract these particular shells.  Weird.
    Oregon

    booksmart

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #5 on: June 09, 2016, 07:31:47 am »
    How hard is it to insert & extract an unfired round?

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #6 on: June 09, 2016, 11:41:54 am »
    Not sure.  I'm all out.  I'll try to  load some up this evening and run them through.

    Oh, not that it should matter, but the previously fired shells I tried last night were all R-P headstamps.  I gave away all the other .30-30 shells I had collected and settled on just keeping the R-P. 
    Oregon

    GeorgeHill

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    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #8 on: June 11, 2016, 03:20:47 am »
    How hard is it to insert & extract an unfired round?

    Easy peasy.

    Now.

    Test firing my cat sneeze cast bullet rounds tomorrow.  (Er, make that later today.  Just noticed it's after midnight.)
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 12:17:41 am »
    Okay.  Followup time.

    And a further point.  All twenty of the Federal 150gr rounds had the primers back out about .020".  I didn't think that was relevant so failed to mention it. 

    When I showed the gun and the fired Federal factory rounds to the owner of the store he pointed out that those primers popping could force the bolt back, and cause the extractor to slip back over the top of the rim upon firing.  I also brought some fired .30-30 shells that had been fired in a different gun with a slightly larger chamber.  The  shells had to be gently forced into the chamber, but they still extracted fine.  Also the dummy rounds. So it's definitely not extractor related.

    A gunsmith was coming in to the shop later, but after waiting a couple of hours, I went to the range and shot the 20 cat-sneeze rounds I had loaded up Friday night. (All shot fine, though hit about 6" lower than the POA at 25 yards.)  I got back to the shop and waited around about 45 minutes before he showed up (not the most punctual person).  Anyway, he said it might be overly hot rounds, but alternatively it could be excess headspace.  There are apparently up to eight different thicknesses of one particular part that moves the bolt forward and back.  I just bought a box of R-P this afternoon.  I'll try a couple or three when I go out to the range on Wednesday.  If the primers pop, or if they don't, it should identify the problem. 
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #10 on: June 16, 2016, 03:26:15 pm »
    Followup #2:

    I fired off four rounds last night.  All extracted just fine.  And all had the primers pushed back between .007" and .012".  So it wasn't overly hot ammo the first time.  I double checked the Federals as well when I got home. In my earlier post I said the primers were backed out about .020".  Bad memory when I wrote that.  They were consistent with the R-Ps from last night at .012" or less.

    So, now a new question.  I only reload R-Ps.  Everything else I give away to friends to reload.  If the R-Ps will extract, and the primers are only backing out .012" or less, do I really need to replace the locking block to tighten things up?  It seems like it should still be safe to shoot, at least to my mind.  If I do need to replace it, that gunsmith said there were multiple sizes of the same part (implying it takes a gunsmith to install the correct one and get it right), but all of the parts houses I've looked at only list one part number, with no reference to varying thicknesses.  Was he blowing smoke looking for a sale, or was he telling the truth?

    Oregon

    JesseL

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #11 on: June 16, 2016, 04:30:43 pm »
    You might try backing off your sizing die by .010" or so. Let your rounds headspace on the shoulder a little and see if that makes it happier.

    If that takes care of the issues, you can either call it good or have the headspace tightened up.
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #12 on: June 16, 2016, 05:24:36 pm »
    Thanks Jesse, but these were factory rounds.

    Or were you just giving advice for when I reload vs buy factory?
    Oregon

    JesseL

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #13 on: June 16, 2016, 08:40:38 pm »
    Yep, advice for when you reload.
    Arizona

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #14 on: June 16, 2016, 09:04:59 pm »
    Huh... I've not had any problems with Fed loads in my 464... And it's a 94 derived action.
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    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #15 on: June 16, 2016, 10:41:32 pm »
    Yep, advice for when you reload.

    Thanks.  Two questions:

    Will they still chamber in other rifles?
    Was he feeding me a line about the multiple thicknesses available on the locking bolt, fishing for the work?
    Oregon

    JesseL

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2016, 11:06:21 pm »
    To the first question, a definite maybe. It depends on just how far out of whack your headspace is - as well as the headspace on the other rifles.

    To the second, I haven't actually done enough smithing on the 94 family to know. It would depend on what tends to wear/stretch/compress when the headspace starts to open up.
    Arizona

    JesseL

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2016, 11:12:39 pm »
    Looks like there are oversized locking bolts available:
    http://homesteadparts.com/shopcart/pid_1716.htm

    I'd go ahead and measure the headspace yourself, as it sounds like your already there with the tools and skills for checking it:
    http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #18 on: June 17, 2016, 01:40:17 am »
    Thanks Jesse.  Looks like Homesteadparts.com has three different oversize locking bolts available if I need to go that route.

    On the instructions for checking the headspace, I'm thinking that if I use a fired case that was fired in a gun that I know did not have headspace issues (my father's 1955 model 94) I should be able to use that procedure from castbullet.com.  Only if I try to use a cartridge fired in my gun might I have an issue.  Or do I really need to disassemble one of the factory rounds I just bought? 

    Ya know what?  Never mind.  I've decapped plenty of live primers over the years, and never popped one yet.  I'll disassemble one of the new factory rounds.  I can simply put it back together when I'm done testing.
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: Win 94 not extracting
    « Reply #19 on: June 18, 2016, 02:16:48 am »
    Alrighty.  I pulled apart a factory round, set a fired primer just barely into the primer pocket, and closed the bolt per the instructions Jesse linked to.  I also used the same procedure on two fired but resized cases, one fired from another gun, and one of the ones I shot Wednesday.

    I think the first bullet point of those procedures is silly.  Unless they're wanting the arguably tighter primer pocket.  Regardless, unfired or previously fired and resized, all three came out roughly the same.  .067" - .068".  So, though it's at the upper end of the SAAMI spec, the headspace is still within spec.

    Oregon

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