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Author Topic: There are no cool rifles.  (Read 3634 times)

MTK20

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There are no cool rifles.
« on: June 19, 2021, 07:30:30 pm »
Was talking with Coelacanth and he suggested that I post here, I'm not so sure this is worth the post/rant, but I am going to say it.

You have 150 different flavours for polymer handguns, yet if you want a unique semi auto precision rifle that isn't an AR-10 or perhaps a bolt gun with iron sights, you don't have much selection.

I have always loved M1A's and held them as the standard in semi-auto, yet traditional looking rifles. They are cool guns. FAL's are cool too. However none of these rifles can offer the accuracy of the AR-10. The utilitarian would say to "just buy the damn AR-10", but for those who yearn for guns with "soul" or who want a fun DMR but with style points too.... It leaves a guy wanting.

What say you?

1. What cool non-AR-10 platform rifles do you like that could serve as medium calibre, medium range, target punchers/modern hunters/ or DMR rifles? Hell, why should someone look at a Socom or what makes the Sig 716 compete with the AR10?

2. Who makes a bolt gun that comes with iron sights that isn't the Savage Model 110? Of course I want glass, but I like the option of open sights  :shrug .
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    ksuguy

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #1 on: June 19, 2021, 07:50:22 pm »
    Some nicer FALs can give you decent accuracy, but it's much harder to find a good one that can keep up with an AR.  I've got one built on an STG-58 kit that is like that.  However, that is just luck of the draw.  On average, an AR-10 is going to do better and it's much easier to build a cheap one these days.

    Some of the nicer AK variants could probably do it,  like the IWI Galil or one of the VEPR derivatives.

     If you have a crazy amount of money there is the Sig AMT/PE57.   
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    Raptor

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #2 on: June 19, 2021, 08:03:07 pm »
    For #1, pretty much any post-war battle rifle can be used as a hunting rifle (if state & local laws allow it) and accurized into a DMR Role.  And SIG says they'll be releasing the upscaled version of the SIG MCX they've developed for the Pentagon in .308 at some point in the near future.  As far as an actual precision/sniper platform, I don't know enough about the new MCX-based platform to say one way or the other, but the AR platform is more inherently accurate than the other platforms, at least without getting stupid expensive (seriously, a PSG-1 cost $10k new in '80s dollars!).  But all of them will (or should) shoot minute-of-Commie out to 300-400 yards or so.

    For #2, you're pretty much SOL unless you're looking at big game rifles.  There's the Ruger Gunsite Scout, and I believe CZ still offers their 527 Carbine, but other than that you're gonna need a gunsmith.

    FWIW, I've lately found myself wanting to get an M14 (Fulton Armory, haven't been to pleased with SA as of late) and build it up into an homage to the rifle Randy Shughart carried during the Black Hawk Down incident.
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    ksuguy

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #3 on: June 19, 2021, 09:17:16 pm »
    I've got a pretty good collection of 7.62 NATO battle rifles.    I do still need to get a G3.  I've got a CETME, but that's not quite the same.  Also would like a Galil.   I like the classic ones,  but the magazines on those are really hard to find and expensive.   The new version takes common P-MAGS, but it's also pretty expensive and it just doesn't look as cool as the old ones.

    I'd love a Sig AMT,  but those are super rare in the US and extremely expensive.   If I'm going to spend that much, I might as well buy a machine gun.   
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    coelacanth

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #4 on: June 19, 2021, 11:22:57 pm »
    Namedropper .  .  .   :cool    Actually there are lots of "cool rifles" but they don't get a lot of press these days and most of them don't come with iron sights anymore.  Since you seem to want something other than an AR pattern rifle ( who can blame you there?   :shrug ) I'll throw out a few others for consideration.  I assume, from your description here and our conversation earlier, that this is to be a general purpose rifle - something along the lines of Col. Cooper's original scout rifle concept.   

    Bolt action, iron sights, accurate to 500 yards and chambered in something useful for hunting medium sized game.  Bear in mind that a lot of today's rifles come with either no sights or a rail section installed.  They are marketed to people who almost universally intend to mount scopes on them but that does not mean they can't be fitted with iron sights. 

    You mentioned the SOCOM rifle but to me that is a battle rifle - primarily intended for close quarters and packing the .30 caliber punch needed to end such encounters quickly and decisively.  I think the rifle from SA that is closer to what you describe might be the M1A Scout Squad rifle with an 18" barrel rather than the SOCOM's 16" tube.  Better barrel length for a GP rifle, same caliber, same magazines and manual of arms, iron sights and a short rail section for either a holographic sight or an extended eye relief scope of conventional design.  Not cheap, but what is these days?

    The Ruger Gunsight Scout rifle is a pretty faithful rendition of Col. Cooper's idea.  Bolt action, 16" .308 Win. barrel , magazine fed ( 5 or 10 round ), ghost ring iron sights with a rail for optics, laminated wood or synthetic stock, blued or stainless. 

    The Savage Model 11 Scout rifle.  Bolt action, .308 win., 18" barrel, 10 round magazine, ghost ring iron back up sights, rail section for optics, synthetic stock with adjustable cheek riser, Savage Accutrigger. 

    Steyr Scout Rifle.  Probably the original commercially produced scout rifle and still one of the best IMO.  Lightweight bolt action, receiver mounted iron sights with rail, box magazine ( 5 round included with a 5 round spare housed in the butt stock, extended capacity mags available ) chambered in several calibers based on the .308 Win. case, integral folding bipod on the for-end, multiple sling attachment points,
    synthetic stock in black, grey or green. 

    There are others but you get the idea that they are still being made out there.  But wait, there's more .  .  .   :cool

    Browning X Bolt Max Long Range.  No iron sights from the factory but it brings the chops in terms of accuracy and a bunch of available calibers.  The 26" barrel is also configured to get the most out those rounds at long range. 

    CZ 527 American and 527 Varmint MTR.  The American is a classy looking little walking around rifle and the 6.5 Grendel chambering in a bolt action allows you to get the most out of that remarkable little cartridge.  No iron sights from the factory but CZ's are easier to mount those on than many so I imagine its doable.  The Varmint MTR is more of a dedicated varmint rifle with a longer, heavier barrel and more of a target styled stock but still chambered in 6.5 Grendel.  That round is plenty capable out to 500 yards so unless you're planning on some really long range work it should be fine.  Both rifles are blued with wood stocks and magazine fed.  CZ triggers are nice.  Really nice.   :thumbup1

    Howa HCR.  Closest thing to a bolt action AR I could find.  Its a chassis rifle and therefore ugly as homemade sin but Howa has been building great barreled actions for many years.  This one is the full sized 1500 model, magazine fed with free floated barrels in 20", 24" and 26" lengths.  The buttstock is an excellent adjustable unit from Luth.  Multiple chamberings available including the wonderful .243 Winchester which gives you true long range capability with negligible recoil in a 26" barrel.

    Savage Model 10 GRS.  Yeah, I know - its a Savage Model 10 but this one comes with a very interesting Norwegian stock from GRS ( pillar bedded with multiple sling attachments and bipod mount ).  Bolt action, railed from the factory, Accutrigger, three barrel lengths 20", 24", 26" and three chamberings - all capable of long distance performance.

    Tikka T3X Compact Rifle.  Bolt action, magazine fed, foam filled synthetic stock, interchangeable pistol grip stock inserts to adjust for individual fit, rail mounted from the factory, single round feed option, 20" barrel, three different chamberings available, user adjustable trigger. 

    Tikka T3X Ultimate Precision rifle.  For a little more coin you can have Tikka's top of the line target rifle.  Better stock, better trigger  (your choice, single stage or set ) most other features are same as the T3X Compact.

    Again, there are others but you begin to get the idea.  Hopefully. 



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    booksmart

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 09:17:11 am »

    2. Who makes a bolt gun that comes with iron sights that isn't the Savage Model 110? Of course I want glass, but I like the option of open sights  :shrug .

    Hm. The Howa 1500 platform is fun, but I' am not finding a model with iron sights from the factory.

    Obviously, that doesn't mean they couldn't be fitted with iron sights, but yeah, factory would be ideal.


    Raptor

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 09:19:51 am »
    Oh, Tikka's T3x Arctic comes with irons, as does their Battue Lite model, but I've never seen the latter in the wild before.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 03:20:24 pm »
    Yup.  Definitely cool rifles.  In most cases aftermarket irons are available either as primaries or back-ups depending on the configuration. 
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    MTK20

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #8 on: June 24, 2021, 03:01:53 pm »
    A lot of bolt gun options given  :thumbup1 .

    I love the idea of the M1A squad, but it seems that with the M1A they are hesitant for you to strip the rifle too far when cleaning it. Apparently you need to take it down just enough to avoid putting slop in the tolerances and messing with accuracy?

    This has been an ongoing homework assignment of mine for years now, as I have referenced it in other threads in the past. The only thing that has kept me from actually buying the rifle is the price. I want it and it would be suitable for critters on the ranch (who have been oddly destructive to the property in the last year or so... Damn Texas hogs  :bash ).

    At this point the only thing worse I could do for myself is to actually want an AR-10  :cool. Now that is a dizzying variety of guns to pick from and which one is "best" (intentional quotation marks) remains to be seen.

    I kind of like the Springfield Victor .308. Any input on that is welcome as well  :cool . Or any other AR-10's you like for 2021. Hell, that may be a thread in itself, if I feel like it later.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    coelacanth

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #9 on: June 24, 2021, 08:01:12 pm »
    What about the Savage Impulse rifles?  The "Hog Hunter" or the "Predator" might work.  Fast, reliable and less money than the SA.   :hmm
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    Plebian

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #10 on: June 25, 2021, 02:53:59 pm »
    What about the Savage Impulse rifles?  The "Hog Hunter" or the "Predator" might work.  Fast, reliable and less money than the SA.   :hmm

    I really want to try the new Impulse rifles. Straight pull bolts are always cool, but not always super reliable.
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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #11 on: June 25, 2021, 03:21:46 pm »
    My new favorite 7.62NATO rifle is the Tavor 7, not quite as accurate as a DMR, and I wish it had the 1:10 twist, but it is fairly accurate for a battle rifle. I ended up selling a M1A Scout in a Sage chassis to fund it, loved the M1A, but it was heavy and like a Harley, all the parts are expensive. The Tavor isn't super-light either, but the balance is awesome and the bullpup configuration is great. The trigger is the best out of the bullpups I've tried (previously owned an AUG clone, fired a Tavor SAR & FS2000).

    If I was to get an AR-10, I'd go for the LaRue Ultimate Upper kit.

    coelacanth

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #12 on: June 25, 2021, 11:02:25 pm »
    I really want to try the new Impulse rifles. Straight pull bolts are always cool, but not always super reliable.
    I would agree - at least in terms of some of the high end European hunting guns.  The old Swiss milsurps seem to just keep running forever and the Browning T Bolt that has been awfully good over the years.  The only comment even remotely negative I could find about the Impulse reliability was from a guy who was running reloads during the test.  He was slowing down the bolt travel to avoid losing his brass when it got flipped twenty feet away running the bolt normally.   :shrug   

    The basic design of that thing is solid - and the same principle is used in high pressure hydraulic line connectors on heavy equipment.  If I was a a betting man I'd bet this design is going to be a good one.  Maybe better than good. 
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    Raptor

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #13 on: June 26, 2021, 08:37:12 am »
    The Impulse's locking system sounds similar to the Heym SR30 that Forgotten Weapons spotlighted a while back:



    A little research indicates that Heym has been producing the SR30 since 1998 and they appear to be very popular, so that indicates (to me, at least) that it's a sound and robust design (of course, the Colt 1877 Double-Actions sold like hotcakes too, so...  :shrug ).
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: There are no cool rifles.
    « Reply #14 on: June 26, 2021, 01:01:59 pm »
    I agree that the Heym is a similar concept but Savage is different enough to qualify for separate patents.  I think the Achilles' Heel of any straight pull design is probably out of spec ammo.  They don't have the sheer force exerted by camming a couple of massive bolt lugs into place by rotating the bolt handle.  A dinged up case or some other fault is not a deal breaker for a Mauser type action.  Ammo loaded to SAAMI spec or even handloads assembled for a specific rifle are going to be fine unless you're trying to run the thing submerged in a mud bog.  IMO.   :coffee
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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