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Author Topic: Well regulated...  (Read 3047 times)

RMc

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Well regulated...
« on: June 14, 2018, 01:05:47 pm »
Before a rifle can be used effectively, its sight system must be well regulated.   :hmm
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    Chief45

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 04:46:18 pm »
    before a muzzle loader can be used safely and effectively,  the loading process must be completed in a well regulated manner . . .
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #2 on: June 14, 2018, 05:04:17 pm »
    My old double barreled shotgun shoots pretty much where it looks so the barrels must be well regulated. 
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    MTK20

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 05:25:19 pm »
    Before a rifle can be used effectively, its sight system must be well regulated.   :hmm

    Sure, it's a mechanical device and everything has to line up 
    appropriately :shrug .

    Cars also have to run before they're allowed to leave the lot  :P .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    RMc

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 06:51:42 pm »
    Then let us endeavor to oft use "well regulated" in a befitting manner.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 01:57:14 am »
    Indeed.  A thought exercise for those who have not pondered the wording of the second amendment to our constitution.
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 11:36:01 am »
    Indeed.  A thought exercise for those who have not pondered the wording of the second amendment to our constitution.

     . . . as in a citizenry that is both proficient and practiced in the use of firearms for effective combat.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    LowKey

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 02:27:20 pm »
    Actually I've recently heard a somewhat different take on it that makes just as much if not more sense if you keep in mind what G.Washington, J.Madison, P.Henry both said said about the dangers of a standing army; “Overgrown military establishments, which under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican Liberty." (G.W.) , A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." (J.M.), “A standing army we shall have, also, to execute the execrable commands of tyranny; and how are you to punish them? Will you order them to be punished? Who shall obey these orders? Will your mace-bearer be a match for a disciplined regiment?”(P.H.),

    Sorry for the wall-o-text. :-[
    It's clear that the founding father's were aware that a standing military force was a dangerous thing, yet necessary to deter outside aggression.   

    I've started to wonder if the "well regulated" statement is in reference to a need for an armed citizenry to keep keep the organized militia (the standing military force) in honest and in check, in modern English something along the lines of, "Finding it necessary to have a small professional military to serve us, we find it equally necessary that the citizenry's right to be armed equally or better than that military be recognized as absolute in order that they may be a deterrent against any attempts by the servants of their nation to become the masters."

    Such a reading would put the phrase"well regulated" in line with current usage of the word as well as some of the period usages.   

    *Just to throw this in here, a quote from G.W.'s first State of the Union address, "A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies."

    coelacanth

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 05:49:52 pm »
    Correct sir.  The term "well regulated militia" was used to describe a fully equipped volunteer army, available at a moment's notice that was practiced in the arts of war and led by commanders who were almost always experienced combat veterans.  The last quote from G.W.'s state of the union address is one reason there was such a preponderance of arms and ammunition manufacturers clustered in the New England area from the earliest days of our founding. 

    Previous posts in this thread were simply expounding on the other definitions and usage of the term "well regulated" - in an attempt to, hopefully,re-inject it into the popular vernacular.
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    TommyGunn

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #9 on: June 16, 2018, 11:48:01 am »
    "Well regulated"  also meant well trained,  and well disciplined.  General Washington had seen enough .... what we today might call "mall ninjas,"  turn up for muster drunk,  with broken or rusty rifles,  or with no powder.   The Militia of the mid 18th century had a poor reputation amongst the British Regulars as well;  they'd tag along to suppress the local Indian uprising but as the hostilities neared,  they'd suddenly remember they had a root canal scheduled that morning .... or forgot to buy wifey an anniversary present ....or any excuse to beat feet.
    By the time the Founders came to  debate and ratify the Bill of Rights most knew all too well that the militia system was not nearly as effective as a professional standing army,  and only served well when we'll trained, disciplined and --yes -- equipped.
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    LowKey

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #10 on: June 16, 2018, 04:13:51 pm »
    "Well regulated"  also meant well trained,  and well disciplined.  General Washington had seen enough .... what we today might call "mall ninjas,"  turn up for muster drunk,  with broken or rusty rifles,  or with no powder.   The Militia of the mid 18th century had a poor reputation amongst the British Regulars as well;  they'd tag along to suppress the local Indian uprising but as the hostilities neared,  they'd suddenly remember they had a root canal scheduled that morning .... or forgot to buy wifey an anniversary present ....or any excuse to beat feet.
    By the time the Founders came to  debate and ratify the Bill of Rights most knew all too well that the militia system was not nearly as effective as a professional standing army,  and only served well when we'll trained, disciplined and --yes -- equipped.
    Right, but what I've most often seen in discussions is a reading of the phrase, "well regulated militia" , as to use the well-trained definition and apply it to what we would think of as the unregulated militia.     While I agree that one of the period definitions of the word "regulated" means trained or disciplined, I'm coming to believe that the word regulated in that phrase is used in it's (also period ) definition of controlled or limited and that the militia referred to is the organized standing militia...what we would see as the army today.    The, "well regulated militia",  isn't mentioned in this case as a body made up of "the people".  It's mentioned as a potential threat, and "the people" being armed is enshrined so as to protect them from and deter the "well regulated militia" from being used against the citizenry.

    If it seems like I'm picking nits, it's that what I hear most commonly said as part of the defense of the 2A is that the militia referred to is each and every one of us, and that the purpose is and was to have a body of trained men available to be called into military serve at need.   
    People seem not to realize that the primary  purpose was to ensure the people could forcibly and effectively oppose that militia, not to groom them for utilization by it.    Which is why arguing that participation, actual or potential, is a good explanation  for the 2A seems ludicrous to me, yet that is what 9 or of 10 seem to argue.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 01:09:13 am »
    I don't really get that point of view from what I've read and heard over the years.  The militia was made up of citizen volunteers who agreed to drop everything at a moment's notice and answer the call to take up arms in defense of their respective states or areas.  The standing army was recognized as the main threat from a remote federal government by people who had, within memory, been forced to quarter British troops in their own homes.  The same troops who engaged made war on their countrymen at the behest of a foreign king.  A standing army was anathema to them and the local militia(s) were the counter to it.  A military force made up of local men and led by local officers might at some point join a larger group under a senior commander from another state or area but that would only be under the most dire circumstances.

    It is hard to square our modern idea of national defense with the corresponding thought from the 18th century.   The gap is too wide between their reality and ours.  I think the point is an academic one, at best.  We have transitioned to an all volunteer force structure supplemented by a national guard reserve system - which in my opinion, is about as close to the original idea of the militia as we are likely to get under a national defense oriented system. 

    Even as early as the War of 1812 it became painfully obvious that the state militias were simply not adequate to the task of repelling foreign invaders.  Despite their success at the Battle of New Orleans, most militias were not up to the task of marching off to war hundreds of miles from their home base.  Several governors of New England states refused to allow their militias to operate beyond state boundaries despite being well organized ( well regulated ) so the need for some sort of standing army was shown to be a priority.  I believe the army stood at something around 7000 men and officers at the outbreak of hostilities - a number clearly inadequate to carry out the task at hand.

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    LowKey

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    Re: Well regulated...
    « Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 02:24:46 pm »
    I don't really get that point of view from what I've read and heard over the years.
    Yup, me too.    Until I ran across something a few months back (and can't recall the writer for the life of me) with this new parsing of the 2A, which is also in line with the founding fathers concerns.  I  read through the article and initially discounted it....until the idea percolated through my brain over a month or so. 



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