Author Topic: Katrina rifle (Read 28753 times)

Strongone · « **on:** August 27, 2016, 12:27:49 am »

Grab and go....your rifle is it....I have a 15lb go bag always on hand. No rifle stuff in it.....not happening. No one has a lighter kit than me. Rifle....Smith and Wesson, ar, red dot, 3X magnifier , light, spare bat in grip...magpul coupler...so double mags....plus my fav 5-11 sling. Already done....any holes? Grab and go....the way I keep it, 59 rounds of USA!

WeTheArmed.com

Strongone · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2016, 12:31:38 am »

Concept is light and fast...like a get home bag with punch.....boom

Strongone · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2016, 12:34:04 am »

I'm in Florida , so a bug net, tarp, paracord and water filter has me set yr round....

MTK20 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2016, 12:42:48 am »

Can you please elucidate on what it is that you would like?

Do you want guidance on your kit?

Where do you live? Urban Florida or rural Florida?

What is your goal? Where do you wish to travel? Do you have any special considerations, meds, insulin, any pet considerations? Are we going home or leaving home?

sarge712 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2016, 09:40:45 am »

Why did you name your rifle Katrina?

Kaso · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2016, 09:47:29 am »

I'm pretty sure he want to start a discussion on survival rifles for a 'Hurricane Katrina' type event. (as in, a situation similar to NOLA, where the whole place was flooded, the gangs were running rampant, and there was a breakdown of civil order - basically our imagined SHTF situation.)

tokugawa · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2016, 11:19:54 am »

Quote from: Kaso on August 27, 2016, 09:47:29 am

I'm pretty sure he want to start a discussion on survival rifles for a 'Hurricane Katrina' type event. (as in, a situation similar to NOLA, where the whole place was flooded, the gangs were running rampant, and there was a breakdown of civil order - basically our imagined SHTF situation.)

Oh good- I get to rant on my favorite old codger advice- if you can't conceal or holster the gun, don't bring it.

Because in a shtf event, if you are not in your home area where people know you, any visible long gun is going to get you shot, right now, no questions asked. A rifle is not going to be viewed as a defensive arm, and people cannot afford to take a chance. A rifle implies the person carrying it is hunting. JMO.

scarville · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2016, 01:49:04 pm »

Quote from: tokugawa on August 27, 2016, 11:19:54 am

Oh good- I get to rant on my favorite old codger advice- if you can't conceal or holster the gun, don't bring it.

Because in a shtf event, if you are not in your home area where people know you, any visible long gun is going to get you shot, right now, no questions asked. A rifle is not going to be viewed as a defensive arm, and people cannot afford to take a chance. A rifle implies the person carrying it is hunting. JMO.

Gotta agree on that.

On my home turf, long guns are a visible indicator for impressing on a potential interloper that I am serious about repelling invaders. When out and about on another's turf, it is more likely to make me look like an invader.

Strongone · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2016, 02:30:31 pm »

It would be concealed. I have an Eberlestock pack...I think it's called a low drag. This Rifle is basically a get home rifle. Work is 15 miles away....half urban. About 3 miles straight through the worst urban area in Polk Co...I start work at 4 AM. People are on the streets when I drive through at 3:30 AM.

Plebian · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2016, 03:18:30 pm »

High capacity pistol and some more magazines is a much better answer to your question than any rifle.

You can do some reading up on the Argentinian Crisis to get a good idea of what folks recommend. They lived through the SHTF scenario, and they have some solid insights into what works.

Notice you already have two folks in this thread saying visible long arm on stranger = possible instant engagement of perceived threat. That LoDrag pack you mentioned is the same as carrying that rifle in the open IMO. It is basically screaming you are packing a rifle.

Kaso · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2016, 04:06:42 pm »

Quote from: tokugawa on August 27, 2016, 11:19:54 am

Oh good- I get to rant on my favorite old codger advice- if you can't conceal or holster the gun, don't bring it.

Much as I dislike old codgers in general, and in the gun community especially, I have to partially agree. A rifle is more threatening, yes, and in an extreme situation may cause people to be more trigger happy... But they still can't legally shoot you unless you are posing a threat. Sure, they may challenge you and warn you to get away from their property, but simply open carrying (where, when, and if legal) is no excuse for deadly force. Once again, they may challenge you quite strongly, and you may have to turn around and take a different route, but law abiding civilians and law enforcement will not shoot you simply for carrying openly. Criminals... that's a different story - but criminals are why you are carrying in the first place.

I disagree, however, that a rifle should never be considered. When I run through potential (though extremely unlikely) scenarios in my head, where I may be traveling through a suddenly hostile area, a rifle seems like a good idea. Especially if a local town turns into a Ferguson or Baltimore all of a sudden, as unlikely as that may be. And if I have to abandon my vehicle for whatever reason? I want a rifle.

In the hypothetical Katrina situation, where a natural disaster causes a breakdown in law and order, or maybe just happens to coincide with one of those race riots, (now that would be a fluffing nightmare

) in that case I really, really want a rifle. Even if it turns every other lawful citizen up to threat level 11, that is kind of their problem if the threat level is actually there already - if trouble comes knocking, sometimes one has to knock back.

Quote from: Plebian on August 27, 2016, 03:18:30 pm

That LoDrag pack you mentioned is the same as carrying that rifle in the open IMO. It is basically screaming you are packing a rifle.

This is an entirely different issue. You are showing that you are carrying a rifle, sure, but who cares? A rifle in a pack, on your back is worlds less threatening/intimidating/concerning than a rifle slung over your shoulder, and that is much less even than one slung in front of you. A rifle front-slung=likely threat. One shoulder slung=Possible threat, depending upon what he is doing, and if it stays slung. In a rifle bag? Yeah, that chump is just trying to get from here to there with his rifle.

Then again, the rifle in a bag is visible to criminals as well, but lacks the readiness to defend, thus losing much of its potential.

tokugawa · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2016, 05:02:51 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on August 27, 2016, 04:06:42 pm

Much as I dislike old codgers in general, and in the gun community especially, I have to partially agree. A rifle is more threatening, yes, and in an extreme situation may cause people to be more trigger happy... But they still can't legally shoot you unless you are posing a threat. Sure, they may challenge you and warn you to get away from their property, but simply open carrying (where, when, and if legal) is no excuse for deadly force. Once again, they may challenge you quite strongly, and you may have to turn around and take a different route, but law abiding civilians and law enforcement will not shoot you simply for carrying openly. Criminals... that's a different story - but criminals are why you are carrying in the first place.

I think you will find the "law" tends be become completely irrelevant in situations like this.
Optimistically, you are projecting that people will be like yourself- calm, reasoned, rational. etc- To this , I will reply with three things-
one is George Carlins joke about "average" "Take the most average person you know, then realize that half the population is dumber than that".

Second, real life experiences of Katrina do not bear out your assessment of Law Enforcement restraint.

And third, Selco's rather horrifying blog about the Balkan war points out that peoples normal ways of evaluation become useless- "it is not, good guy, bad guy, cop, gangster,military, etc. It is "man with gun". People cannot take the old standard models for granted anymore, there is no slack- they have to assume the worst.
His particular illustration was of a group of "police", coming through sometime after initial bout of shtf, who were welcomed with relief by some people holed up in an apartment. The cops came in, disarmed them, and raped and killed them. Not "police"- Men with guns. Do not think old paradigms will hold- they won't, in most cases.

Remember, every old codger started as a young codger in training. It has taken years to get this ornery and cynical and stay alive doing it. Codgers Forever!

Strongone · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2016, 05:24:53 pm »

Mine is very short collapsed. That's a pick of a bolt gun. Mine fits totally in the pack. How do I attach a photo? On iPad cannt see it, but cut the butt stock off that rifle....that's my profile.

Kaso · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2016, 06:54:06 pm »

As much as we on the right like to vilify police, (and in some cases, justifiably so) the professionalism of our law enforcement is far from that of a third world country. In some instances they are corrupt as hell, but I don't think that will translate into randomly shooting those carrying rifles. Especially those carrying rifles in a non-threatening manner.

As with other armed citizens, the cops may confront you, order you to put it down, even cuff you until they know what you are up to... but if you get shot because you were carrying a rifle, chances are you did something very wrong.

Quote

I think you will find the "law" tends be become completely irrelevant in situations like this.
Optimistically, you are projecting that people will be like yourself- calm, reasoned, rational. etc- To this , I will reply with three things - one is George Carlins joke about "average" "Take the most average person you know, then realize that half the population is dumber than that".

Oh yes, humans have to be the dumbest creatures on earth. If any wild animal acted so irrationally, it would quickly become extinct. The thing is, stupidity and intelligence often go hand in hand, and humans have such a surplus of intelligence that we can get away with being sloppy, and still occupy the top of the food chain.

Stupid people will always be with us. If there are those out there who would send lead my way for walking past with a rifle, (and I'm sure there are) chances are they would fire upon me for a dozen other reasons that no one could predict. If there comes a time when people are going to be jumpy like that, I want a rifle to send some back.

Lupinus · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2016, 09:39:39 pm »

I largely agree. A concealed weapon is a much better option and will allow you to go about your business much more smoothly, and frankly for out and about on foot? A rifle is going to be overkill IMO.

Now around the house or neighborhood where folks know you, and are probably working the neighborhood together? Or in the car/truck? Great. But on foot? I think it's more problems than not.

coelacanth · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2016, 12:39:59 am »

I tend to agree that the ability to conceal a weapon may be an advantage in the situation described. I'm thinking either a SBR or some kind of take-down model would be ideal from that standpoint. I've got a couple of shorties that would fit in a good sized back pack without any problem. If it came down to it I think I would go with the Winchester "Timber Carbine" in .444 Marlin.

tokugawa · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:11:21 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on August 27, 2016, 06:54:06 pm

As much as we on the right like to vilify police, (and in some cases, justifiably so) the professionalism of our law enforcement is far from that of a third world country. In some instances they are corrupt as hell, but I don't think that will translate into randomly shooting those carrying rifles. Especially those carrying rifles in a non-threatening manner.

As with other armed citizens, the cops may confront you, order you to put it down, even cuff you until they know what you are up to... but if you get shot because you were carrying a rifle, chances are you did something very wrong.
Oh yes, humans have to be the dumbest creatures on earth. If any wild animal acted so irrationally, it would quickly become extinct. The thing is, stupidity and intelligence often go hand in hand, and humans have such a surplus of intelligence that we can get away with being sloppy, and still occupy the top of the food chain.

Stupid people will always be with us. If there are those out there who would send lead my way for walking past with a rifle, (and I'm sure there are) chances are they would fire upon me for a dozen other reasons that no one could predict. If there comes a time when people are going to be jumpy like that, I want a rifle to send some back.

I agree with all of what you said, in general- the problem is, it only takes ONE to ruin your day. Don't give them an excuse. And engaging in a firefight by yourself is a very good way to get dead, sooner than later. And that is not the purpose- the purpose is to get home.

The essential problem with a visible long gun, is that the logical approach is for someone to shoot you, before you get close enough to shoot them- and this is at a range that precludes any verbal communications beforehand, even if they are disposed to talk. Talk of return fire is problematic because the very first shot fired is likely to kill you.

IMO- Best to move quiet, move smooth, move gray, stay out out of the way. Stay away from crowds, don't run unless you have to, don't stand around idly- Do nothing to arouse any special interest. Keep the load light, if you have to splurge on weight, add more water and some high energy food you can eat while moving. Bring plenty of ibuprofen and a few elastic bandages, have a good pair of boots. Wear nothing "tactical"- use urban camo- blue jeans, tee shirts, hoodie, etc. Look like everyone else. Your pack should look like a school pack, not like an assault pack. There are places it would not hurt to have something to cover light skin and blonde hair. Some knee pads and elbow pads would be a good idea too. Maybe a small pair of bino's to scope out the route.
Stay away from crowds no matter if you have to go 180 degrees from your desired line of travel.
Just like shooting- slow is smooth, smooth is quick- the goal is to evade, not to fight.

Kaso · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2016, 07:35:12 pm »

Quote from: tokugawa on August 28, 2016, 04:11:21 pm

IMO- Best to move quiet, move smooth, move gray, stay out out of the way. Stay away from crowds, don't run unless you have to, don't stand around idly- Do nothing to arouse any special interest. Keep the load light, if you have to splurge on weight, add more water and some high energy food you can eat while moving. Bring plenty of ibuprofen and a few elastic bandages, have a good pair of boots. Wear nothing "tactical"- use urban camo- blue jeans, tee shirts, hoodie, etc. Look like everyone else. Your pack should look like a school pack, not like an assault pack. There are places it would not hurt to have something to cover light skin and blonde hair. Some knee pads and elbow pads would be a good idea too. Maybe a small pair of bino's to scope out the route.
Stay away from crowds no matter if you have to go 180 degrees from your desired line of travel.
Just like shooting- slow is smooth, smooth is quick- the goal is to evade, not to fight.

I think I understand our differences in opinion now. Where I am located, and if I had to walk home from town in the middle of a civil disturbance, a rifle would be just another tool in the tool box. If things were going to escalate to violence by a crowd, the rifle would be just as effective at dissuasion as neutralization of a threat.

Where you must live, or at least what you seem to be planning for, is a SERE mission through Durkastan. Maybe that is the type of place you live, and the population is generally hostile... Not around my area. I live in a generally rural area, where everyone would more or less distrust a guy carrying a rifle, but would have the good sense to leave him alone. I know how people think around here - they don't want to interact with you any more than they want you to interact with them. It's not quite Appalachia, but an unarmed stranger approaching a house during a riot or disaster is in much more danger than an armed man just passing through.

You speak of being the gray man. That has a lot of merit, most of the time. The times I want to be prepared for (and they most likely will never happen here) are when the wolves are hunting. Hunting wolves avoid a porcupine.

Chief45 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2016, 10:37:25 am »

I guess I keep seeing a couple of different, somewhat conflicting, mission objectives here and I'm wondering . . . . .

A. I'm going home, nothing and no one is going to stop me and I'm ready and able to fight my way through the ravaging hordes that may appear to block my way. I have food, water and extra ammo and I'm prepared to fight my way home.

B. I'm going home. I'm going to stay low, slow, gray and silent. A dark shadow in the night breeze. I'm armed, but in the spirit of recon, no one will ever know I was there unless things get really s*itty, up close and personal. That being said, I don't need a long gun, I need close in, CQB tools for a situation of desperate, last resort, no choices left, cause I'm going home.

so, which mission are you gearing up for ?

what gear do you foresee needing for which mission ? what gear is unique to what set of circumstances and what is common to either ?

Based on your circumstances, distance you have to travel, terrain to have to cross, obstacles along the way, routes that are available, what are your factors ? what are you choosing and why are you choosing it?

is what your looking at and packing for, stuff that is specific to your mission ?

MTK20 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2016, 10:54:00 am »

Quote from: Chief45 on August 29, 2016, 10:37:25 am

I guess I keep seeing a couple of different, somewhat conflicting, mission objectives here and I'm wondering . . . . .

A. I'm going home, nothing and no one is going to stop me and I'm ready and able to fight my way through the ravaging hordes that may appear to block my way. I have food, water and extra ammo and I'm prepared to fight my way home.

B. I'm going home. I'm going to stay low, slow, gray and silent. A dark shadow in the night breeze. I'm armed, but in the spirit of recon, no one will ever know I was there unless things get really s*itty, up close and personal. That being said, I don't need a long gun, I need close in, CQB tools for a situation of desperate, last resort, no choices left, cause I'm going home.

so, which mission are you gearing up for ?

what gear do you foresee needing for which mission ? what gear is unique to what set of circumstances and what is common to either ?

Based on your circumstances, distance you have to travel, terrain to have to cross, obstacles along the way, routes that are available, what are your factors ? what are you choosing and why are you choosing it?

is what your looking at and packing for, stuff that is specific to your mission ?

At that point it seems to be up to user preference.

I like option B, but not everyone may feel that way

.

goatroper · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2016, 12:20:04 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on August 28, 2016, 07:35:12 pm

It's not quite Appalachia, but an unarmed stranger approaching a house during a riot or disaster is in much more danger than an armed man just passing through.

Rather interesting comment. I've lived and worked in Appalachia for many, many years, and I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by that.

Of course, that may be because I've pretty well arrived in Codgerville -- but that's a large can of worms for another day.

MTK20 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2016, 12:33:33 pm »

Quote from: goatroper on August 29, 2016, 12:20:04 pm

Rather interesting comment. I've lived and worked in Appalachia for many, many years, and I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by that.

Of course, that may be because I've pretty well arrived in Codgerville -- but that's a large can of worms for another day.

I believe he was saying that Appalachia is more accepting of visible firearms. Where he lives doesn't fully embrace that viewpoint, but they are no where near the mindset of San Francisco either.

tokugawa · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:17:59 pm »

I live in a semi rural area, 2 1/2 to 20 acre parcels, heavily wooded. I could walk maybe to the end of my street, about a mile, with a visible long gun, and about a 50 % chance the people passing by would go, "hey, there's Tok, wonder why he has that rifle?" Walk another mile, and it's 911 call to the sheriff for sure.

So now, assuming in a shtf scenario there IS any law enforcement, the deputy's are going to show up primed and ready. Maybe there has been some "activity " already. The chances of getting shot escalate dramatically under these conditions. Maybe the caller lied about a threat.

If things are to the point you need a long gun, you need something else- a fire team. I have never been in the military, but everything I have ever read is one guy is toast against several, or a mob.

Kaso · « **Reply #23 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:19:56 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on August 29, 2016, 12:33:33 pm

I believe he was saying that Appalachia is more accepting of visible firearms. Where he lives doesn't fully embrace that viewpoint, but they are no where near the mindset of San Francisco either.

Not quite, though that is accurate as well. I meant 'not Appalachia' to mean that while this area is quite distrustful of strangers, it is not quite as bad as our neighbors to the south. Or at least what one hears of their reputation for distrustfulness.

Kaso · « **Reply #24 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:22:05 pm »

Quote from: tokugawa on August 29, 2016, 05:17:59 pm

...everything I have ever read is one guy is toast against several, or a mob.

Yes, hence I want a long gun.