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Author Topic: It ain't for sissies  (Read 3825 times)

wyatt

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It ain't for sissies
« on: January 19, 2018, 05:43:25 pm »

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:29:33 pm by wyatt »

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    coelacanth

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #1 on: February 01, 2018, 10:50:07 pm »
     :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    LowKey

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #2 on: February 01, 2018, 11:32:28 pm »
     :thumbup1 :thumbup1

    Mississippi556

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 06:01:01 pm »
     :thumbup1 :thumbup1 :thumbup1

    Excellent!  I have a single shot .45-70 H&R Buffalo Classic with globe front sight and Lyman receiver sight.  Long 32" barrel, curved metal buttplate.   I have been shooting Buffalo Bore 405 grain .45-70 "Magnum" ammo and equivalent handloads in it.  Action is plenty stout for that.  I shoot it during our primitive weapons deer season here, presently open, which permits such centerfire rounds original produced in the very distant past, from single shot exposed hammer rifles.   

    For the uninitiated, the Buffalo Bore 405 grain ammo is rated at 2,000 fps and 3,500 ft/lbs. of energy.  From the long 32" barrel it chronos at just over 2,100 fps, averaging about 2130 fps.  That translates into 4081 ft.lbs. of energy -- elephant gun range.

    Suffice it to say that with that curved metal buttplate I had to put a slip on Limbsaver pad to make it bearable.   Recoil is . . . brisk.

    But, terminal ballistics on whitetails is phenomenal.  Of course, it still has a rainbow trajectory due to the flat nosed bullet design, even with the increased velocity. 

    Since it is a single shot, I'm working up some 400 grain Barnes Original spire pointed soft point bullet loads.  Much higher BC than the flat nosed lever action bullets, so they ought to extend range a little bit.

    When you let one of these off at a shade over 2,100 fps (as opposed to 1200 fps for factory ammo), lets just say the event gets your attention.  You want to get it sighted in with as few shots as possible.  Fun for infrequent shooting, but not for extended sessions at the bench.  In the field, you do your job, you only take one shot and don't feel the discomfort at all.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    MTK20

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 08:01:42 pm »
    :thumbup1 :thumbup1 :thumbup1

    Excellent!  I have a single shot .45-70 H&R Buffalo Classic with globe front sight and Lyman receiver sight.  Long 32" barrel, curved metal buttplate.   I have been shooting Buffalo Bore 405 grain .45-70 "Magnum" ammo and equivalent handloads in it.  Action is plenty stout for that.  I shoot it during our primitive weapons deer season here, presently open, which permits such centerfire rounds original produced in the very distant past, from single shot exposed hammer rifles.   

    For the uninitiated, the Buffalo Bore 405 grain ammo is rated at 2,000 fps and 3,500 ft/lbs. of energy.  From the long 32" barrel it chronos at just over 2,100 fps, averaging about 2130 fps.  That translates into 4081 ft.lbs. of energy -- elephant gun range.

    Suffice it to say that with that curved metal buttplate I had to put a slip on Limbsaver pad to make it bearable.   Recoil is . . . brisk.

    But, terminal ballistics on whitetails is phenomenal.  Of course, it still has a rainbow trajectory due to the flat nosed bullet design, even with the increased velocity. 

    Since it is a single shot, I'm working up some 400 grain Barnes Original spire pointed soft point bullet loads.  Much higher BC than the flat nosed lever action bullets, so they ought to extend range a little bit.

    When you let one of these off at a shade over 2,100 fps (as opposed to 1200 fps for factory ammo), lets just say the event gets your attention.  You want to get it sighted in with as few shots as possible.  Fun for infrequent shooting, but not for extended sessions at the bench.  In the field, you do your job, you only take one shot and don't feel the discomfort at all.

    The only reason I haven't bought a Marlin Guide gun yet is because I am worried that even the 'light' factory loads may be too much. I couldn't even imagine what you're shooting through your gun  :shocked.

    The second I find a friend that has one, I'm gonna shoot the .45-70. I also need to do some research on who makes the lightest loads for it outside of the obvious "cowboy action" loads.

    I think it's fear of having never shot one before. I can shoot my 8mm just fine at the bench, so  :shrug .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #5 on: February 07, 2018, 08:09:32 pm »
    The only reason I haven't bought a Marlin Guide gun yet is because I am worried that even the 'light' factory loads may be too much. I couldn't even imagine what you're shooting through your gun  :shocked.

    The second I find a friend that has one, I'm gonna shoot the .45-70. I also need to do some research on who makes the lightest loads for it outside of the obvious "cowboy action" loads.

    I think it's fear of having never shot one before. I can shoot my 8mm just fine at the bench, so  :shrug .

    I actually talked with Evil Jim about this of Facebook a while back when I got bit by the lever gun bug. IIRC, he said that "trapdoor" loads out of a Guide Gun kick about as hard as 20-gauge buckshot. I'll go back and see if I can find the conversation to let you know for sure: I know he compared something to 20-ga buck, but I can't remember for certain if he was referring to light "trapdoor" loads or heavier "standard-power" loads.

    Per the OP, watching that makes me was a Sharps. Or a Winchester 1885.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    MTK20

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #6 on: February 07, 2018, 08:17:42 pm »
    I actually talked with Evil Jim about this of Facebook a while back when I got bit by the lever gun bug. IIRC, he said that "trapdoor" loads out of a Guide Gun kick about as hard as 20-gauge buckshot. I'll go back and see if I can find the conversation to let you know for sure: I know he compared something to 20-ga buck, but I can't remember for certain if he was referring to light "trapdoor" loads or heavier "standard-power" loads.

    Per the OP, watching that makes me was a Sharps. Or a Winchester 1885.

    Thanks! I look forward to it.

    When I was a young man, I introduced myself and an armadillo to a 20 gauge slug and I handled it perfectly well. The armadillo, however, did not  :rotfl .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    First Shirt

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 08:24:08 pm »
    I'd have to get a Winchester 1885, or the Browning copy thereof.  The Sharps has the hammer right in my line of sight (shooting left-handed).  Of course, I'd prefer a Winchester 1886, but what the heck do I know?
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    Raptor

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 08:35:58 pm »
    Thanks! I look forward to it.

    When I was a young man, I introduced myself and an armadillo to a 20 gauge slug and I handled it perfectly well. The armadillo, however, did not  :rotfl .

    No problem! Always happy to help out.

    I found the conversation with the 20-gauge comment, but it wasn't as helpful as I thought as neither I nor Jim clearly distinguished between "Trapdoor" and "Standard-Pressure" (i.e. not Dinosaur-Killer Magnum) loads during the discussion. Fortunately, I also found a different conversation about the Marlin Guide Gun and .45-70 recoil in general that got much more specific.

    Per Jim, on a scale of 1-10, where 1 = .22LR, 5 = .308 Winchester, and 10 = 3" 12-ga slug, .45-70 is between 5-11 depending on the load and the gun. Light "Trapdoor" loads are a 6 out of the Guide Gun, while the "Standard-pressure" 325-grain Hornady LeverEvolution load out of the same gun is 7.5-ish.

    5 is right about my upper limit thanks to my buggered shoulder (I can shoot a FAL on semi all day long, but 3-4 shots of .30-06 out of a scoped bolt-action and I'm done), so I'm thinking my eventual single-shot will be either .30-40 Krag, .38-55, or maybe .40-65.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    MTK20

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 09:11:42 pm »
    No problem! Always happy to help out.

    I found the conversation with the 20-gauge comment, but it wasn't as helpful as I thought as neither I nor Jim clearly distinguished between "Trapdoor" and "Standard-Pressure" (i.e. not Dinosaur-Killer Magnum) loads during the discussion. Fortunately, I also found a different conversation about the Marlin Guide Gun and .45-70 recoil in general that got much more specific.

    Per Jim, on a scale of 1-10, where 1 = .22LR, 5 = .308 Winchester, and 10 = 3" 12-ga slug, .45-70 is between 5-11 depending on the load and the gun. Light "Trapdoor" loads are a 6 out of the Guide Gun, while the "Standard-pressure" 325-grain Hornady LeverEvolution load out of the same gun is 7.5-ish.

    5 is right about my upper limit thanks to my buggered shoulder (I can shoot a FAL on semi all day long, but 3-4 shots of .30-06 out of a scoped bolt-action and I'm done), so I'm thinking my eventual single-shot will be either .30-40 Krag, .38-55, or maybe .40-65.

    Thanks for the info!  :thumbup1

    It might be a bad time to admit that I have never fire a .308 before  :-[  :rotfl .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 09:25:57 pm »
    Thanks for the info!  :thumbup1

    It might be a bad time to admit that I have never fire a .308 before  :-[  :rotfl .


    Eh, the only .308s I've shot were the aforementioned FAL (which is easy to shoot on semi, but an absolute BEAST on full auto!) and a Browning 1919 on a tripod. And the only thing that I've shot that's "bigger" than that is the aforementioned .30-06, and a small assortment of 12-gauge shotguns.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    coelacanth

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 10:29:42 pm »
    The 20 gauge slug - factory loaded - is roughly on par with the old trap door loads for the .45/70 in terms of recoil.  They are a little faster but also a little lighter as a rule so the difference is small.  Most folks think the shotgun kicks a little harder because of the faster powders they are usually loaded with and also a stock design that is not generally ideal for a rifle type weapon.  If you can handle a 12 gauge with magnum loads then you can handle a .45/70 Guide Gun, IMO.   
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    Mikee5star

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 02:10:01 am »
    I don't have a 45/70, but I do have the Marlin Guide Gun in .450 Marlin, it kicks, but not as bad a 12 ga with Brenneke slugs.  That said all I have shot through it is the 325gr and 350gr LeverRevolution loads.  I have some 450gr pills to load, but have not done so yet.

    Thanks for the info!  :thumbup1

    It might be a bad time to admit that I have never fire a .308 before  :-[  :rotfl .


    Don't you still have a Bennelli?  Grab some Brenneke full power slugs, it is about like that.  Not the .308, the 45/70.
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    MTK20

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 08:43:26 am »
    I don't have a 45/70, but I do have the Marlin Guide Gun in .450 Marlin, it kicks, but not as bad a 12 ga with Brenneke slugs.  That said all I have shot through it is the 325gr and 350gr LeverRevolution loads.  I have some 450gr pills to load, but have not done so yet.

    Don't you still have a Bennelli?  Grab some Brenneke full power slugs, it is about like that.  Not the .308, the 45/70.

    Kaso has a Benelli. I just have a Winchester 1200. I've heard Brenneke full power stuff is pretty awful  :rotfl .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #14 on: February 08, 2018, 09:44:21 am »
    A Benelli with slugs feels much worse than a guide gun in .45-70.  Recoil is subjective, but the .45-70 seems less sharp/severe.

    Mississippi556

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 04:48:37 pm »
    Here is what you can do with strong single shot actions.  This data is for Ruger #1 and similar, for .45-70 as published in Barnes current loading manual.  I'm working with AA1680 and the Barnes SP 400 grain bullet in the once fired Buffalo Bore cases.

    Not up to 50 grains yet.  Not sure I want to go that far.  48.0 is giving me 2,100 from the longer barrel, replicating the BB 405 with a much higher BC bullet.   50 grains would be pressing 2,200 fps from a shorter barrel. That's starting to get into the lower range of .458 Win Mag. ammo.  As some point, enough is enough.

    These are strong action single shot loads.  Use only in Ruger #1 or equivalent action strength.  The H&R Buffalo Classic qualifies. No lever guns or Sharps rolling blocks, either.  No signs of excess pressure at 2,100 fps in that action.  Do not try this in anything else.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    coelacanth

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 04:57:50 pm »
    Yup.  That'll nudge you even out of a heavy rifle .   .   .   :scrutiny
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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: It ain't for sissies
    « Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 12:30:28 pm »
    So my dad is what I'd call a 45-70 junkie I've shot them well a fair amount over the years. I'd agree with the talk of recoil above, I've shot insane hand loads, and I've shot trapdoor loads in trapdoors;) He also has a BFR 45-70 which with a heavy load isn't super comfortable. But generally speaking most 45-70 rifles are fairly heavy, and the weight of course effects felt recoil. So if you're concerned about recoil in heavier loads get a heavy gun and your set. I've forgotten the model now as it was quite a few years back but the first 45-70 he bought was a break open that the previous owner had leaded the stock. It was heavy as all get out, but it was accurate and actually much more enjoyable to shoot.

    I will also say 45-70 is one of those rounds that with a good couple rounds you'll drop a maple tree with them. Which funny enough my dad and a buddy of his were shooting off the front porch at a target leaned up against a maple tree around 150 yards out. They were plinking for a while not sure the round count. The following day I had to cut the tree off the road since it broke where the rounds hit and fell across the road over the night. Wasn't something they were thinking about nor myself but I saw it happen;) It's a heck of a round;)

    Luke
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