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Author Topic: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.  (Read 13212 times)

Mississippi556

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Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2018, 05:43:02 pm »
No personal experience with the 6.5 Grendel, but were I to venture down that path, here's what I would consider doing:

1.  Get just about any reputable stripped upper.  Forging is pretty much commodity now, given the high quality of CNC machining.  Get the BCG I prefer and the rail I prefer, but it would need to be free float design. I understand that the AR bolt extractor may be a bit weak for the 6.5, so either a dedicated bolt or upgraded extractor.

2.  Get the best barrel I could afford, if long range accuracy is the objective. 

I don't want to single out any one company as better than others, but you can do this for well under the cost of any decent AR-10 and get a really nice custom barrel.

I will give an example, but any of the top barrel makers would be comparable.  I have been very happy with the drop in AR15 16" M4 Navy Recce barrel I got from custom barrel maker, Lilja.  It was $480, plus shipping from the manufacturer. 

They do not have vendors.  You deal directly with Fred or Carson Lilja.   That barrel shoots sub 1/2 MOA with my match handloads.  The practical limit being me and my mediocre marksmanship, even at bench.

Lilja makes several drop in barrels in 6.5 Grendel.  I'm sure the other top custom barrel-makers like Kreiger, Bartlein, Shilen, etc., do the same.  Be forwarned:  These barrels will make you want to upgrade other stuff, especially the trigger group, and may lead to handloading if you are not already there.

I cannot address magazine compatibility issues. 

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 06:19:37 pm by Mississippi556 »
Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    ksuguy

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #51 on: May 14, 2018, 05:56:55 pm »
    Brownells often has the Aero rifles and you can often catch one of their 10% off sales.

    Kansas

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #52 on: May 14, 2018, 06:33:11 pm »
    Brownells often has the Aero rifles and you can often catch one of their 10% off sales.

     :thumbup1
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #53 on: May 14, 2018, 06:33:55 pm »
    Saw this and it looks freaking cool :drool .

    https://www.springfield-armory.com/products/m1a-loaded-6-5-creedmoor/

    I still love M1A's .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #54 on: May 14, 2018, 07:40:27 pm »
    I hate to be the stick in the mud, but honestly I think your needs would be served perfectly well by a basic, scoped bolt-action rifle in pretty much any standard-length, non-magnum cartridge from .243 Winchester on up to .30-06. Get something like a Ruger American, Howa 1500, or Tikka T3x if you want to splurge, a good scope, and a good shooting sling.

    If you insist on a semi-auto, then an AR-10/SR-25 with a free-float handguard is probably the most accurate option, though I confess I don't know enough about the different brands to offer a meaningful opinion.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #55 on: May 14, 2018, 08:35:50 pm »
    I hate to be the stick in the mud, but honestly I think your needs would be served perfectly well by a basic, scoped bolt-action rifle in pretty much any standard-length, non-magnum cartridge from .243 Winchester on up to .30-06. Get something like a Ruger American, Howa 1500, or Tikka T3x if you want to splurge, a good scope, and a good shooting sling.

    If you insist on a semi-auto, then an AR-10/SR-25 with a free-float handguard is probably the most accurate option, though I confess I don't know enough about the different brands to offer a meaningful opinion.

    You're not being a stick in the mud at all! I have been kicking around the idea of a bolt gun.

    Let's explore these. I have said that I am a handgunner at heart, so I don't know much about rifles, but I have been eyeing the Ruger American's and I still love the Savage FCP. It has a picatinny rail (so I don't have to fuss with any proprietary mounting system), it comes in .308, it has a threaded barrel so when I do decide to do some of that splurging down the road I can supress it, and it has a respectable magazine capacity of 10 rounds. The Savage FCP series strikes me as a very cool and overlooked rifle.

    You mentioned two brands that I am not familiar with: Howa 1500 and Tikka T3x. I'll have to look into those as well.

    I have heard that 7mm Remington is a flat shooting cartridge that isn't punishing to shoot. I don't know anyone who owns one to shoot it, but I have been curious about getting a rifle in that chambering.

    I like the Browning BLR, but I may have to pass it up as an option, I suppose  :-[ .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    booksmart

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    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #57 on: May 14, 2018, 10:35:31 pm »
    If Raptor is going to put the stick in the mud, then I am going to pull it back out and hose it off.  You want a semi auto.  Less for any imagined DMR scenario, and more for the coyotes and hogs.  Particularly the hogs.  There will be times that multiple hogs present themselves.  Sure it's okay to just take one, but you may as well be able to try for multiple kills in one shoot.  Especially with hogs being smart.  Fool them once...

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #58 on: May 15, 2018, 01:05:01 am »
    I have also seen hogs take more than one shot to put them down humanely.  Coyotes too for that matter.  While its hard to argue with owning a good bolt gun I would agree with your point and probably opt for the semi-auto in this instance.  If you want an all purpose rifle in the twenty first century its going to be a semi-automatic, no?    :shrug
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    Raptor

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #59 on: May 15, 2018, 04:25:51 pm »
    You mentioned two brands that I am not familiar with: Howa 1500 and Tikka T3x. I'll have to look into those as well.

    Howa is Japanese (same company that makes modern Winchester lever guns, I believe) and the 1500 is, IIRC, basically a modified Sako 75 type action. I've seen them get derided as a "budget brand," but my understanding is that they are extremely accurate. Aftermarket support is kinda weak, however Brownells sells barreled actions and stocks, so you can put together pretty much any configuration you want.

    The Tikka is Finnish, made by Sako I believe, but the company is owned by Beretta. Again, it's Sako's "budget brand" but still very accurate and high quality. Aftermarket support is out there if you know where to look (I toyed with getting a customizing a T3x for a brief and shining moment) but not as good as any of the "big brands," probably worse than Sako, and it's going to be the most expensive of the bunch, but the Tikka is renowned for having a very "fast" action, i.e. extremely smooth and can be worked quick and ran hard without fear of jamming, so that'd probably be your best bet for varminting if you choose to go with a bolt gun.

    The 7mm-08 Remington (not to be confused with the 7mm Remington Magnum) is, as you say, a flatter-shooting, lighter-recoiling option than the .308. I don't have any firsthand experience with it either, but my understanding is that it will do everything the .308 can do until you get up to heavier bullet weights (I think 162-ish grains is the limit for the 7mm). If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at a .243 Winchester, 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 mm Creedmoor, or .260 Remington, but only for the lighter recoil (stupid buggered shoulder). 7mm-08 or .308 will work just fine for your purposes.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Nick Cage

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #60 on: May 15, 2018, 05:10:32 pm »
    For your described application it sounds like an .308 AR platform rifle would be the best option.
    Since Crusader is no more  :'( :'( :'( and you don't want to put one together I'd point you towards Aero Precision, I've got several of their rifles that I've assembled (albeit in .223/556) and have been nothing but thrilled with them.
    Ruger makes one I've shot and enjoyed but don't own, same with Wyndham weaponry the fit, finish and accuracy seemed to be on point with both, granted with my sample size of 1 ea.  As with all guns the effective range is going to be load dependent not just caliber. With my Crusader Broadsword I can get consistent hits at 1k on 24" targets, with the right load. Would I want to harvest animals at that range with that gun? Oh hell no but you can hit that far out for sure.

    If you decide to go bolt action I'd look at the Ruger RPR (takes SR-25 mags) and the Bergara HMR (takes AICS mags) rifles. Both are excellent rifles that provide top level accuracy and lots of what are normally custom options right out of the box.
    Avoid like the Devil any Savage rifle that takes their proprietary magazines they are universally horrific (the mags, not the guns) and obnoxiously expensive!
    The Tikka A3 series are solid, but they take a (good this time) proprietary mag which costs a crap ton for spares.
    Remington has basically given up on QC these days and you can get better rifles with better features from other manufacturers for cheaper.

    But really these days you can get all the accuracy and reliability of a bolt gun in a semi-auto for little to no added expense, I don't see any reason to go with a bolt action unless legally restricted to do so.


    TommyGunn

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #61 on: May 15, 2018, 07:19:57 pm »
    Howa is Japanese (same company that makes modern Winchester lever guns, I believe) and the 1500 is, IIRC, basically a modified Sako 75 type action. .....

    I thought it was Miroku.  My 1892 Winchester is Miroku ....
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #62 on: May 15, 2018, 08:40:58 pm »
    Correct.  Miroku builds all the Winchester lever guns.  Howa is good quality stuff though.
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    Raptor

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #63 on: May 16, 2018, 05:49:03 pm »
    I thought it was Miroku.  My 1892 Winchester is Miroku ....

    Correct.  Miroku builds all the Winchester lever guns.  Howa is good quality stuff though.

    D'oh!  :facepalm  My bad. Y'all are right. Big self- :bash for that one.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #64 on: May 16, 2018, 06:19:39 pm »
    Hey, its all good.  Gentle correction is a hallmark of this place.   :cool
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #65 on: May 18, 2018, 03:17:09 pm »
    I guess I am a self-admitted "stick in the mud".

    Bolt guns remain my favorite type of rifle.  I admit a bias toward older Remington 700s before the decline as a result of the Freedom Group acquisition.

    A good, lightly used synthetic stocked 700 in '06 or .308 would be an excellent choice as a farm or general purpose rifle where high rate of fire is not needed.   I have several 700 ADL and BDL rifles from the '70s and '80s, and a superb factory Custom Shop 700 Mountain Rifle.  The thing about Rem 700s is that there is such a huge aftermarket for customization.   Almost as much so as with Rem 870 pumps and with AR15s.

    One of my Rem 700s is in 7mm Rem Mag.  I do like it and it is fairly accurate (about 1.5 MOA with factory ammo).  It may do better with handloads.  I have the dies for it, but have never gotten around to working up loads.   

    I also have an older Winchester Model 70 (transition model from the late '60s) in 7mm Rem Mag.  It is actually a bit more accurate.  But, it is custom stocked and the barrel is free floated, so that may be the difference.

    My Custom Shop Rem 700 is in .280 Remington, which is very close to 7mm Rem Mag in actual performance.  That rifle has a blueprinted and trued action and is sub MOA.  But, I doubt you would want .280 unless you handload, as factory ammo is scarce and not very many choices.   It will shoot 1/2 MOA with handloads and about 3/4 MOA with good factory ammo.  So, that tells you a bit about inherent accuracy of a Model 700 action if a good gunsmith gets a hold of it.

    A lightly used bolt gun in a popular model with lots of aftermarket parts and that any decent gunsmith can work on blindfolded is always a good choice, either as is, or as a barreled action for something you might want to improve.

    A good mid-powered scope, like a basic 2-7x or 3-9x can serve well and not set you back very much.
    « Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 03:47:13 pm by Mississippi556 »
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #66 on: May 18, 2018, 03:40:32 pm »
    I guess I am a self-admitted "stick in the mud".

    Bolt guns remain my favorite type of rifle.  I admit a bias toward older Remington 700s before the decline as a result of the Freedom Group acquisition.

    A good, lightly used synthetic stocked 700 in '06 or .308 would be an excellent choice as a farm or general purpose rifle where high rate of fire is not needed.   I have several 700 ADL and BDL rifles from the '70s and '80s, and a superb factory Custom Shop 700 Mountain Rifle.  The thing about Rem 700s is that there is such a huge aftermarket for customization.   Almost as much so as with Rem 870 pumps and with AR15s.

    One of my Rem 700s is in 7mm Rem Mag.  I do like it and it is fairly accurate (about 1.5 MOA with factory ammo).  It may do better with handloads.  I have the dies for it, but have never gotten around to working up loads.   

    I also have an older Winchester Model 70 (transition model from the late '60s) in 7mm Rem Mag.  It is actually a bit more accurate.  But, it is custom stocked and the barrel is free floated, so that may be the difference.

    A lightly used bolt gun in a popular model with lots of aftermarket parts and that any decent gunsmith can work on blindfolded is always a good choice, either as is, or as a barreled action for something you might want to improve.

    A good mid-powered scope, like a basic 2-7x or 3-9x can serve well and not set you back very much.

    It seems just about every gun store that sells hunting rifles has them topped with a Nikon 3-9x scope, from what I see. I've considered getting one myself  :hmm .

    Aren't Remington 700's a little pricy for what you get now days? I'm not sure that I could get my hands on a retro model, other than dad's Remington BDL  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Mississippi556

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #67 on: May 18, 2018, 03:52:02 pm »
    Not only are the current new 700s overpriced for what you get, they are of indifferent quality control, and I am being generous. 

    A good used Model 700 from as late as around 2000 is a great choice.

    If going new, I'd probably look at Savage 10/11/12 series, as they are very accurate right out of the box.     
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #68 on: May 18, 2018, 03:58:06 pm »
    There's a trainload of used ones ( older Remington 700's ) for sale out there if that is your choice.  You can usually find one that has been stood up in the gun safe more than it's been hunted with if you look around a bit.
      Another ridiculously competent old bolt action is the Savage 110.  They have been around forever and consistently sell for well under $500.00 used - sometimes even with an inexpensive scope mounted.  At any rate, if you buy an older one before the advent of the Acutrigger you'll get a better piece of wood and Rifle Basix makes an outstanding drop in trigger for them for less not much money.  The Stevens model 200 was the bargain basement version of it with a synthetic stock.  I've seen examples of those for sale ( in the last year or so ) for around $300.00.   Either of those rifles is capable of M.O.A. accuracy - particularly if you get the heavy trigger fixed and put some decent glass on it.
     
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    Plebian

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #69 on: May 18, 2018, 07:03:47 pm »
    If you are going bolt action new, then savage is really tough to beat.

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #71 on: May 27, 2018, 09:24:41 am »
    Beat me to it...

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #72 on: May 28, 2018, 04:50:45 pm »
    A savage or Tikka T3x in 6.5 creedmore.
    6.5 creedmore is ubiquitous, I've seen it in every walmart, every gunstore, everywhere that sells ammo I've seen good, decently priced federal gold metal with Berger 130 OTM
    Sellier & bellot sell a 140 grain 6.5 creedmore for $0.65-0.68 A shot which is like- a full buck less then .308

    we're in the age of the utility quarterbore. it's cheaper to shoot, as powerful as some .308 loads, lower recoil, has a higher sectional density, better ballistic coefficient, and is now widely available. if I could chamber my FN-FAL in 6.5 creedmore, I would. but for the cost I could get a 6.5 bolt gun, scope and 200 rounds of ammo.
    there is zero reason to buy a .308 for a long range build.


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    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #73 on: May 28, 2018, 06:52:38 pm »
    A savage or Tikka T3x in 6.5 creedmore.
    6.5 creedmore is ubiquitous, I've seen it in every walmart, every gunstore, everywhere that sells ammo I've seen good, decently priced federal gold metal with Berger 130 OTM
    Sellier & bellot sell a 140 grain 6.5 creedmore for $0.65-0.68 A shot which is like- a full buck less then .308

    we're in the age of the utility quarterbore. it's cheaper to shoot, as powerful as some .308 loads, lower recoil, has a higher sectional density, better ballistic coefficient, and is now widely available. if I could chamber my FN-FAL in 6.5 creedmore, I would. but for the cost I could get a 6.5 bolt gun, scope and 200 rounds of ammo.
    there is zero reason to buy a .308 for a long range build.

    Has it really gotten that common?  :o

    I might end up getting an AR in 6.5 creedmore if that's the case. I might still get a bolt gun, who knows, but I feel the bolt action platform shines in areas where you can't get a semi auto clambering such as 300 win mag or 338 lapua. Not saying I need or want that extra power, but I feel it's something special that the bolt action platform brings to the table.

    Btw, you used some terms I'm not too familiar with and will have to look up, sectional density and ballistic coefficient?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #74 on: May 28, 2018, 07:27:34 pm »
    Btw, you used some terms I'm not too familiar with and will have to look up, sectional density and ballistic coefficient?

    Ballistic Coefficient or BC is the drag caused by air resistance. The higher the BC the less speed it loses over a given distance. It is a ratio compared to a known projectile.

    Sectional density is how much mass a projectile has per frontal area. A quarter looking at the face has poor sectional density, and an arrow or dart looking from the front has high sectional density. Sectional density can be an indicator of ability to penetrate.

    Sectional density, being long compared to width, and Ballistic Coefficient tend to run hand in hand. A long skinny bullet tends to have low drag and high penetration capability. Obviously construction of projectile and material of the projectile can upset this tendency.

    I think there was some European folks after WW2 that experimented with aluminum projectiles that were steel jacketed. It was during that whole period of everyone looking for the next greatest infantry rifle. It had a high BC for range but a poor SD.
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