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Weapons and Gear => Rifles => Topic started by: MTK20 on May 05, 2018, 11:43:50 pm

Title: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 05, 2018, 11:43:50 pm
The most practical for my money may be the Savage FCP-SR 10 and I really like that rifle. I've been interested in it for a couple years now.

The most common would be the AR-10, but I really don't care for the AR platform, so I would like a bit of discussion on it.

I have yet to own a lever gun and I feel the Browning BLR may be something pretty formidable in 30-06.

The SCAR-H or the Sig 716 would take some saving, but I am determined on this front, that I could pull either off with some time.

While I know optics mounting would be a b____, I absolutely would love to own an M1A. That rifle has called to me for about a decade now.

Whatever gun I decide upon, will be used to clear coyotes and hogs from some land in Texas. Most of it open, but some of it carried through the grasping brush and pines of east Texas.

Don't forget to tell me what scopes you would recommend as well!!!
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 12:42:03 am
Top choice: AR-10  Anything that works, free floated barrel and flat top upper.  A variable hunting scope is required here.  BUISs really aren't what this rifle is for.  ETA: If it was me, I would also want a suppressor

An AR-10 is going to give you your best value for what you want to do.  Semi auto fire is preferable here.  When culling hogs, they will usually come in groups, so make the most of each opportunity to fire.  Not to mention coyotes are damned smart, so if you miss the first shot, it makes sense to have a quick followup available.

Second choice: SIG 716  A glorified AR-10, that costs more.

Third choice: SCAR 17  A marked upgrade over an AR-10, but for the price, you could also have an optic and a suppressor as well.  So... No.

Fourth choices: M1A and FAL  Tied.  Fun, yes.  Efficient, no.  More class and 'cool factor' than an AR-10, but at the cost of magazine price and ease of mounting an optic.  Iron sighted MBRs were outdated in the '50s...

Dead last: The bolt guns  I love a good Mauser as much as anyone, but what you are looking for is not for hunting - it is for killing.  Either four legged or two legged predators.  Semi auto is best here.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 12:43:15 am
While I know optics mounting would be a b____, I absolutely would love to own an M1A. That rifle has called to me for about a decade now.
Block her number until you can afford guns with no purpose.  Probably at least another decade.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 06, 2018, 01:41:00 am
OK. I get that you aren't enamored with the AR 15 rifle but for your stated purpose it would be awfully hard to beat one for the money.  Coyotes and hogs are well within the capability of the AR 15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC.  The 6.5 Grendel is pretty deadly out to 500 yards with a longish barrel and the 6.8 SPC is more at home inside 300 yards with a shorter tube.  A rifle in either of those calibers should do the job nicely IMO.  Another possibility might be the new .224 Valkyrie from Federal and various rifle makers as its a good deal more capable than the standard .223 AR. 

An AR 10 is going to be like an AR 15 but on steroids - bigger and heavier.  They also don't have the parts compatability of the AR 15 rifles so that might be a factor down the road.

SIGs are nice rifles but kind of pricey and also kind of proprietary re: parts. 

The FAL and the M1A are good, capable rifles but unlikely to give you the kind of precision you would seek at long range without spending a trainload of money on either of them. 

Between the Savage and the Ruger .  .  .  I chose the Ruger because I really like their bulletproof customer service.   The Savage is a good rifle as well but I am partial to Ruger because I have never had one that failed on me .  .  . ever.  I have a Ruger American rifle in 30/06 and like it just fine.  I'm sure the precision rifle will outshoot mine - especially at long - range but for what I do there's no way to justify the extra expense of one.

If I was going to go to Browning for the "wild card" I think I would pick the BAR over the BLR and specifically the Stalker version with the 22" barrel in 7mm/08.   

I agree with Kaso that for most of the things you want it for a semi-automatic rifle is preferable in terms of performance.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Plebian on May 06, 2018, 10:14:00 am
Is it required to be in 308? A 6.5 CM will do everything you want better than a 308.

My vote would be 6.5 CM AR-10 variant. If you just gotta have 308. Then it is only an upper change away.

My next vote would be Savage in 6.5 CM, and the 308 is only a barrel change away here as well.

Coelacanth speaks very correctly IMO on getting an AR-15. You can sway uppers for a 224 Valk, 556 or 6.8 SPC and it covers everything you want. It will be fairly cheap, and easy to customize. That is the main selling point of an AR-15.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 11:04:40 am
Is it required to be in 308? A 6.5 CM will do everything you want better than a 308.

My vote would be 6.5 CM AR-10 variant. If you just gotta have 308. Then it is only an upper change away.

My next vote would be Savage in 6.5 CM, and the 308 is only a barrel change away here as well.

Coelacanth speaks very correctly IMO on getting an AR-15. You can sway uppers for a 224 Valk, 556 or 6.8 SPC and it covers everything you want. It will be fairly cheap, and easy to customize. That is the main selling point of an AR-15.

My reason for stating .308 was that I wanted something that would be chambered in a common calibre. I'm not sure how common 6.5 creedmore is. If I did buy an AR in 6.5 CM, then whatever upper in .308 I got, it would also have to be in the same maker wouldn't it? Because the AR-10's are not like leggos, while the AR-15 is?

Is there really that much of a difference between the 6.5 CM as opposed to the .308? Why would I want this round?  :hmm For now it just seems like a good way to sink money into not only a rifle, but an extra upper too. I'm not seeing the benefits or cost savings in that, and I really want a common chambering in my AR which the 6.5 CM may be defeating my purposes and adding unnecessary expenses.

Keep the discussion going, I may be missing something here.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 11:15:25 am
My understanding of the Creedmoor, is that everything the .308 will do, the 6.5 CM will do better, faster, and flatter.  But do you need it to?  Are you planning to stretch the legs on this rifle, or keep it to within a few hundred yards?  A .308 is a perfectly usable round, and I would choose it for the same reasons that you are.  There just happen to be better rounds out there.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 11:36:30 am
My understanding of the Creedmoor, is that everything the .308 will do, the 6.5 CM will do better, faster, and flatter.  But do you need it to?  Are you planning to stretch the legs on this rifle, or keep it to within a few hundred yards?  A .308 is a perfectly usable round, and I would choose it for the same reasons that you are.  There just happen to be better rounds out there.

Given the land we have, I don't think I will end up stretching the legs of the rifle. Maybe a 600 yard shot will be the longest I'd have to shoot. Just a guess, no measurements taken right now. It most likely will be much less than that.

IIRC, one of my old Marine friends said that in his basic they had to shoot at 1000 yards with an M14, open sights. He was Vietnam era. Not saying I'd want to do that, but I cannot imagine .308 not being enough rifle given my sight lines.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 12:06:05 pm
600 is probably where I would put the limit on a .308 for humane kills.  Sure, it is lethal much farther, but unlike the army, a wounded target is not preferable to a dead one.

Ask your friend how large of a target they had at 1000...  I would bet a lot, that it was much larger than a human.  Try seeing a standing man at 500yds+, and see how small they are to the naked eye...  Yeah. :coffee

I still say as long as the shots are kept to where they are reasonably certain to create a clean kill, a .308 is fine.  And if you ever decide to move to somewhere with more distance, as Plebian said, a 6.5 rifle is only an upper change away.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 12:14:31 pm
600 is probably where I would put the limit on a .308 for humane kills.  Sure, it is lethal much farther, but unlike the army, a wounded target is not preferable to a dead one.

Ask your friend how large of a target they had at 1000...  I would bet a lot, that it was much larger than a human.  Try seeing a standing man at 500yds+, and see how small they are to the naked eye...  Yeah. :coffee

I still say as long as the shots are kept to where they are reasonably certain to create a clean kill, a .308 is fine.  And if you ever decide to move to somewhere with more distance, as Plebian said, a 6.5 rifle is only an upper change away.

I remember what things look like at 500+ yard distances. I have shot prairie dogs and bunnies way out before and we ranged them ;) .

Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 12:28:17 pm
Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.
This may not be the way you want to go with it, but I would not break the bank.  PSA is probably the floor of what quality I would accept for ARs, but it is also probably what I would buy in this instance.  They also sell on in 6.5 if you want.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen2-pa10-18-midlength-308-win-ss-lightweight-15-m-lok-acs-l-rifle.html
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Plebian on May 06, 2018, 12:29:03 pm
I remember what things look like at 500+ yard distances. I have shot prairie dogs and bunnies way out before and we ranged them ;) .

Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.

An AR-10 in a 308 is going to be just fine for shorter range work. You can always pop for a 6.5 CM upper for later, OR you could even go with a 243 if you want more speed for varmints etc.

The AR rifles are just too versatile anymore to not go with them IMO.

I would honestly just go for a PSA lower and upper for your first 308 AR. You can always piece together better parts as you go, and you can figure out what you want and do not want.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: lesptr on May 06, 2018, 01:19:16 pm
I think what others are saying about the Creedmore is/are valid. However I jumped into the 308 bolt guns early on and I don’t like to add new calibers to stock. I have not ventured into the AR10 arena yet, but I’ve been seriously looking at Seekins Precision. Specifically this.

http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/ar-lowers/sp10-build-kit-mlok.html

I have tried some of PSA’s offerings over  the years and have found their quality to be lacking to the point that I won’t buy their stuff again.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 06, 2018, 01:41:44 pm
The best argument for the 6.5 Creedmoor over the .308  Winchester is not the ability of either round to be lethal at 1000 yards - both can be at that range.  Where the Creedmoor excels is in the area of less wind drift.

  Shooting at long range is all about accounting for a combined geometric progression of the various factors involved. The longer the range to the target the more adjustments have to be made to connect.  At a known range with a known rifle and a known load you can align and adjust your sights accordingly, make certain the rifle is not canted, and hopefully trigger the shot without disturbing anything.  Wind drift cannot be accounted for except by estimating the conditions between you and the target.  Speed, vector, gusts, whirlwinds, mirage - all can play havoc with precision shooting at long range and the 6.5 is faster( less time to target )flatter shooting( high BC bullets compared to the .308 )and has less recoil than the .308 in case a follow up shot is needed.

Hunters all use the concept of MPBR, or Maximum Point Blank Range.  That is the range at which you can simply align your sights with the target, trigger the shot and go collect your quarry.  Essentially it means that the kill zone on the target is large enough to encompass all variables of elevation and prevailing wind conditions if the hunter does his part.  For most .308 rifle and ammo combinations that is going to be around 220 yards give or take a few.  The 6.5 stretches that out to about 275 give or take a few.   Inside of 200 yards flip a coin unless recoil is a factor and in an AR 10 it probably isn't.  Over 300 yards and the 6.5 has a slight edge.  That edge becomes more pronounced every yard the bullet flies all the way out to where the .308 becomes subsonic and the 6.5 doesn't and then it blows the .308 completely out of the water. 

Cost to acquire and shoot?  The .308 probably wins that one.  Putting the bullet where you want it in a hurry at an unknown range with only an estimate as to wind speed?  The 6.5 Creedmoor takes that contest every day.

If I were buying a rifle today for the job you described it would likely be an AR 15 in .224 Valkyrie with a 20" barrel a good trigger and all the optics I could afford.  Read up on it.  It's really something.   :cool 
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 02:07:28 pm
I noticed that y'all are edging this towards "building" an AR  :hmm .

I am not and never have been an AR builder. I just wish to purchase a rifle of good quality.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 02:59:46 pm
I noticed that y'all are edging this towards "building" an AR  :hmm .

I am not and never have been an AR builder. I just wish to purchase a rifle of good quality.
Okay, then, rule of thumb: The more you pay, the more you get. *

*a few exceptions apply
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 03:07:03 pm
Okay, then, rule of thumb: The more you pay, the more you get. *

*a few exceptions apply

I mean, I know I could save a little money by building, but I don't have any tools and it's gonna be a PITA  :banghead . Not to mention I trust a company rolled AR more than one I built.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 03:27:22 pm
I mean, I know I could save a little money by building, but I don't have any tools and it's gonna be a PITA  :banghead . Not to mention I trust a company rolled AR more than one I built.
I understood you, and I largely agree.  My comment was directed toward the purchase of a complete AR-10.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 04:26:28 pm
Been browsing a little bit and the market is saturated with makes and models, I'm not sure where to start to pick  :hmm .

What about DPMS, Windham, or CMMG AR-10's? I never hear much of them.

I have always wanted to own something by Rock River.

The top choice of mine would probably be a Daniel Defense, but I know there are other manufacturers out there and I don't need to drop a ridiculous amount of money just to get decent quality. I feel some makers charge 4k for a gun because they can get away with it (not saying that Daniel Defense is one of these companies).
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 04:38:38 pm
DPMS,
CMMG AR-10's?
NO.  Back away slowly.

Windham
Probably okay.

I have always wanted to own something by Rock River.
RRA is a solid choice for 5.56 ARs.  I would assume that this level of quality would translate to their heavies.

The top choice of mine would probably be a Daniel Defense
If you can afford it, you will probably not find any better.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: lesptr on May 06, 2018, 04:41:20 pm
http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-6-5-creedmore.html

http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-308.html

Seekins has built options also.

DD has good stuff
BCM has good stuff but I don’t know if they have ventured into the AR10/SR25 stuff yet. There are others as well, but quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 04:54:31 pm
http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-6-5-creedmore.html

http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-308.html

Seekins has built options also.

DD has good stuff
BCM has good stuff but I don’t know if they have ventured into the AR10/SR25 stuff yet. There are others as well, but quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.

I didn't realise this. I'm definitely going to have to spend more time on their site now  :cool .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 06, 2018, 05:23:43 pm
...quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.
Basically, this.  Though, there is lower end, and just plain garbage.  If you don't get anything else out of this thread, avoid DPMS like the plague.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 05:58:04 pm
I'm sorry to hear that. It looked really promising.

https://youtu.be/1cg56Ur4COo

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: lesptr on May 06, 2018, 06:35:17 pm
The problem there is Nutnfancy


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Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Grant on May 06, 2018, 06:41:12 pm
  Quite honestly I like PSA loads better than DPMS and they're alot cheaper.

  I voted Ruger Precision but that is a caveat of "after an AR10", that I'll outline below.

  Get a pre-build freefloat upper from PSA, then either a reciever and build kit, or a built lower.  Watch their sales and you can put one together for $500, or spenjd a bit more and get a premium (FN made CHF barrels) put together for $750-$800.

   They're solid guns, and most always shoot well (all the 5.56 AR's I've had are PSA and all shot 1.5" groups,  just recently toying with one that seems to do 2.5".  but as always.  Wolf gold cheapo .223).

 If you're wanting accuracy, a FAL is out.  They CAN be accurate, they can also be so-so.  Almost any AR will well outshoot a FAL, and mag costs are alot higher and harder to find on a FAL (If you're a mag-hoarder like me that is an issue).

  I disagree with Kaso on a M1A being "overpriced toy you cannot use".  They're relatively accurate (still behind an AR though), they are reliable and have a good enough following there is plenty of aftermarket support.   

 Both of the FAL and M1A are easy to scope.  Are they 1913 picatinny already installed easy?  No.  But there is high quality scope mounts out there to add, no different than scoping a Winchester M70 or Ruger 77,etc.

A Scar-H?  good, not worth the huge $$ output in my opinion.

Savage?  Not a bad gun, but if I were to get a bolt gun I like Rugers ability to swap out and change stuff easily, while taking standard Pmags.

  I wouldnt do the BLR.   ALL the options including the bolt guns have better capacity if you're looking the DMR route. 
 
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 06, 2018, 07:39:35 pm
  Quite honestly I like PSA loads better than DPMS and they're alot cheaper.

  I voted Ruger Precision but that is a caveat of "after an AR10", that I'll outline below.

  Get a pre-build freefloat upper from PSA, then either a reciever and build kit, or a built lower.  Watch their sales and you can put one together for $500, or spenjd a bit more and get a premium (FN made CHF barrels) put together for $750-$800.

   They're solid guns, and most always shoot well (all the 5.56 AR's I've had are PSA and all shot 1.5" groups,  just recently toying with one that seems to do 2.5".  but as always.  Wolf gold cheapo .223).

 If you're wanting accuracy, a FAL is out.  They CAN be accurate, they can also be so-so.  Almost any AR will well outshoot a FAL, and mag costs are alot higher and harder to find on a FAL (If you're a mag-hoarder like me that is an issue).

  I disagree with Kaso on a M1A being "overpriced toy you cannot use".  They're relatively accurate (still behind an AR though), they are reliable and have a good enough following there is plenty of aftermarket support.   

 Both of the FAL and M1A are easy to scope.  Are they 1913 picatinny already installed easy?  No.  But there is high quality scope mounts out there to add, no different than scoping a Winchester M70 or Ruger 77,etc.

A Scar-H?  good, not worth the huge $$ output in my opinion.

Savage?  Not a bad gun, but if I were to get a bolt gun I like Rugers ability to swap out and change stuff easily, while taking standard Pmags.

  I wouldnt do the BLR.   ALL the options including the bolt guns have better capacity if you're looking the DMR route.

Thanks for the difference of opinion and the specifics to go with it :thumbup1 . If I bought a completed upper and lower, there wouldn't really be any "building" for me to do, would there be?  :neener
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: ksuguy on May 06, 2018, 08:18:15 pm
I've got examples of most of the rifles mentioned.   I'd rule out the SCAR-H just due to price.  They are nice guns, but quite expensive.  If you want a bolt gun, hard to argue with the Ruger Precision, those are very nice and the price isn't too bad. 

The FAL is my favorite rifle and I have several, but magazines are more expensive than they used to be.  I've still got lots of them from when I was collecting FAL stuff 15 years ago, but expect to pay about 25-30% more than the current rate for AR-10 PMAGs if you are stocking up on them now.  They aren't so expensive that I'd rule out the FAL completely though.  Mounting optics is fairly easy with a dustcover mount.   Really not much worse than with an AR.   Accuracy will be OK, but probably not as good as an AR.   

The M1A is great if you are looking for a more traditional looking rifle.  The iron sights are awesome,  and magazines are roughly the same price as what you get with the AR.   The accuracy potential is there, but you usually have to spend some cash to get them there.  Out of the box,  it's probably about the same as the FAL unless you get one of the high-end National Match guns.  Scope mounting options are not as good.  You can get good ones, but they are more hassle to install than the other options. 

I get what you are saying about the AR just not being what you are into.   I kind of feel the same way about them, even though I have plenty of them.   That being said, I think you might like AR-10s more.  I'm not sure why, but AR-10s just seem cooler than their smaller cousins to me.   :shrug   If you do build one,  just make sure you buy the upper and lower from the same manufacturer to avoid compatibility issues.   If you watch for deals at PSA, you can buy a complete assembled lower and upper for $600 or so and all you have to do is put the halves together.  You've got the most options for aftermarket customization with an AR-10 too.       





Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 06, 2018, 08:40:57 pm
FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

But I also like the idea of building a bolt action around the Howa actions offered on Brownell's...  :hmm
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Plebian on May 06, 2018, 08:45:38 pm
FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

But I also like the idea of building a bolt action around the Howa actions offered on Brownell's...  :hmm
The howa mini action in 223 has my interest very peaked. It could make for a sweet rifle for my wife.

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Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: ksuguy on May 06, 2018, 09:38:47 pm
FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

Me too.   I've mainly just held off since it is kind of a hassle to drive over to my dealer for the transfer and I'm running out of space in the safe.   
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mikee5star on May 07, 2018, 11:53:45 am
I would suggest you shoot a couple if you can.
A buddy has a Scar-H and he dumped all his other .308 semi’s, an AR10, and a FAL, after spending some shooting time with the H. He claims it is the softest shooting most accurate .308 he has owned. Well worth the money. I don’t know if it would be worth the premium for you, or for me, but it MIGHT be worth the money.
I will likely build a AR10 when I have the money. I am just not real impressed with the heavy caliber AR15 options. Just look at what mag the lower is built for. Used to be that there was two patterns of mags and avalibility was somewhat limited on one option.
Savage made the 99 in .308 if you want a odd ball recomendation. I think it is better than the BLR if you want something different. Also .300 Savage is a capable caliber and might be easier to find.   
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Chief45 on May 07, 2018, 12:07:27 pm
I've got a de-milled M14.   good condition.   posted a couple of pics a few years ago,  when I refinished the stock it turned out the very nice tiger stripe pattern.  I really like that rifle.

Main point.
I'm not a 20 something any more and that durn thing is heavy.  If you add a Bipod, scope and a couple more 10 round mags, well,  it is approaching (or departing) the point of comfortable carry for extended periods.  however, that being said.  I can prone, sit or off hand and fire a healthy number of 308 rounds from that heavy rifle, without my shoulder wanting to take the next 2 days off.  I used mine at an Appleseed shoot a few years ago, and it was, do-able, but after awhile . . .  But,  I really prefer the 308  over a 30-06 for that reason.  The 308 is less harsh.

Fun point, but keep a good paper record. Finding the ammo your rifle likes.  personally,  mine really, really prefers the 168gr BT.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 07, 2018, 01:18:38 pm
Good points.  Most of the rifles being discussed are going to be heavy.  Especially if you start hanging all the aftermarket goodies on them as most folks are prone to do.  I still like a bolt action rifle for most applications that require something you can carry comfortably all day while lugging a pack and capable of first rate long range accuracy.  From a field position, usually sitting with a loop sling snugged up or prone with the rifle resting on the pack, I'm usually able to hit what I need to hit out to about 400 yards with a .308 ( Remington model 788 ) or out to about 500 yards with the 30/06 ( Ruger American or Remington '03/A3 ).   In the field I generally prefer shooting stick(s) to a bipod. 

As a home defense weapon the semi-auto rifles are clearly superior.  They also have the advantage in a multiple shot scenario when engaged in predator control - particularly if they are manageable regarding recoil for shot to shot sight alignment.  That is where the smaller diameter bullets come in.  Any .308 diameter bullet needs to be at least 150 grains to have any sort of long range potential and most are going to be 165 grains and up depending on your caliber choice.  A 7mm bullet at 160 grains will completely outclass a 150 grain .308 bullet in terms of BC.  So will a 6.5mm bullet in anything from 115  grains to 140 grains.  So will a .224 bullet at 90 grains.  Physics dictates the larger diameter, heavier bullet will have more recoil energy for a given muzzle velocity than the lighter, thinner bullet.   :coffee

Figure out what your rifle needs to be good at.  Build accordingly.  Buy the very best quality you can afford. 
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mississippi556 on May 07, 2018, 04:21:27 pm
Allow me to be the contrarian in the group.  For the stated purpose, my guess that predators and defense shots will probably not exceed 300 yards, 400 on the outside.

For that purpose, why not a semi-auto in civilian hunting configuration?  Browning BAR Mk 3 type, synthetic stocked in any one of quite a few large centerfire calibers from .243 Win on up.  A .308 or '06 would be a good general purpose choice.  You could really stock up on ammo or know you can get it at any store that sells ammo anywhere.

These rifles are more accurate than people give them credit for and tend to be more accurate than lever action rifles.

They are even available in 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do not own a BAR, but lots of hunting buddies of mine do.  When hunting deer where ranges are relatively short, I do often carry a semi auto Remington 742.  I have them in '06, .308 and in .280 Remington.  Taken a lot of deer with them over the years, usually with the .280, since I handload for that round with two bolt guns. 

These semi-auto hunting rifles are 2 MOA rifles with good ammo, but shoot well from a cold barrel, as hunting rifles should.  Groups may open up if trying to shoot 10 shot groups.  They are not designed for high rate of fire, like an AR-10, but weigh only 7 pounds or so.

Here is my lowly but effective '70s vintage 742.  This one in .308.  You'd be surprised what you can do with a rifle like this as long as you don't push the range too far.  Three shot groups are often the size of a quarter at 100 yards with this one with decent ammo.  They open up to 2" or so with 5 shots.  I suppose I could synthetic stock it, but it's done fine for about 40 years with wood that I take care of.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: RetroGrouch on May 07, 2018, 05:02:05 pm
I don't know if I would go with modern production Browning rifles.  I've had nothing but problems from Browning and their customer service.  Buckmark, Hi Power and X-bolt, all have had issues ranging from simple part unavailability, to repairs of NIB warrantee.

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: 21B on May 07, 2018, 07:57:17 pm
I've had my eye on a Savage MSR10 Hunter, relatively lightweight for an AR-10 at 7.8lbs, it is a newer AR-10 configuration like the POF-USA Renegade, where they have shrunk down the receivers so they have some AR-15 parts compatibility (unlike the larger DPMS & Armalite receivers).
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: sqlbullet on May 08, 2018, 04:56:24 pm
I voted AR-10/LR-308.  Go DPMS pattern, and then ???

I have a PA-10.  Solid gun.  Can't say much against it.  Lots of hard core AR guys gripe about some of proprietary decisions PSA made in this gun.  But at the end of the day it isn't that much more non-standard than any of the other 308 platform AR's.  And it is well documented which parts you have to get from where and which don't matter.  Can't say that about some of the more obscure marks.  Besides, if you are buying not building, who cares.

I also have a Matrix Arms receiver set I got on clearance.  I don't know that you really want to build though.

If I could get a DPMS or SR-25 for the same or less money than a PA-10, I would.  But I wouldn't spend MORE for another brand of rifle that had comparable parts.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 09, 2018, 09:06:19 am
Which pattern does AeroPrecision follow?
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: sqlbullet on May 09, 2018, 02:44:16 pm
DPMS.

The M5 stuff is GTG too.  If I hadn't found the deal I had on the Matrix set I would have gone M5 for my soon to be 260 Remington build.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 09, 2018, 03:53:43 pm
What is the general consensus on Ruger's SR 762 rifle ?    :hmm
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Chief45 on May 09, 2018, 05:52:20 pm
good point and in thinking about it.

"my" (note the quotation marks) M-14 is residing in my son's gun safe.   guess it ain't really mine anymore. 
my work rifle (M4) rides in and stays in the work truck.
so,  for home defense,  well,  short notice it will be one of several handguns, but for long gun use,  it would be my model 94 in 30-30.     

go figure.    every time I look in my gun safe,  it seems something else has made the trip out to my son's.  rifle or 3, shotguns, or,  hey, wait a minute, when did that go ?  "well Dad,  I'm going to wind up with them anyway" . . . . . . . . . little ,  well,  not so little,   big snot. . . . . .  :neener


Allow me to be the contrarian in the group.  **SNIP**
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: sqlbullet on May 09, 2018, 07:36:06 pm
What is the general consensus on Ruger's SR 762 rifle ?    :hmm

This is very much my opinions and preferences.  Others will disagree, and it is fine with me if they wanna be wrong. :D

I don't care for gas piston systems on AR pattern guns.  Lots of reasons.  Strike 1

The SR762 is really expensive.  Most of that expense is in the already mentioned gas piston system I don't like.  Strike 2

Finally, I am stuck with all of their compromises and choices in the rest of the gun.  Not that they made bad choices or compromises, but as a guy who kinds likes building AR's it bugs me to live with other peoples choices.  Strike 3.

If it floats you boat, I am sure it is a solid gun.  But the price and the gas piston really do it in for me.

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 09, 2018, 09:03:40 pm
Let's venture off of the path a little bit here.

Let's say I bought a Daniel Defense AR-15. So I would have a reliable and trustworthy brand of AR-15 which would be perfect for SHTF. Then let's say for the back forty I bought an upper in 6.5 Grendel. Who could I buy the upper from for it to still be 'reliable'? Is the AR-15 really so much like legos that I could pretty much buy any type/male of 6.5 Grendel upper and it would still be good to go?  :hmm

If I did go this route, who would you recommend that makes a good 6.5 Grendel upper?
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: sqlbullet on May 10, 2018, 09:58:40 am
If you have an in-spec AR-15 lower I would expect this to just work.

I have built around a dozen AR's.  All of them but one came from parts.  One of them has a PSA upper.  All but two just plain worked.

The two that didn't were both pistols with barrels from a VERY cut rate supplier, and on inspection the gas ports were ridiculously small.  Drilled them out to spec and they both have run 100% since then.

It really is just that easy.

The AR-10/LR-308 is about 90% that easy.  Since there is no mil standard for this platform their is a little bit of variability in parts.  But, the basic system is still well vetted and so the 10% is just in figuring out a few basics about your upper and lower.  It seem intimidating the first time, but then gets easy.

Now, as to whom I would buy a 6.5 Grendel Upper from....That depends a good bit on a bunch of factors.  I would look at Alexander Arms (premium) and at PSA (budget).  And I would check reddit/r/gundeals.  The nice thing about gundeals on reddit is the comments give you some idea about if it is GTG.

I might also take a chance on something from a place like Delta Team Tactical...But would advise you not to do so.  It was from them I got the aforementioned pistol barrels.  Luckily I had 5-6 builds under my belt when I did those, so I new right off what to look for.  Similarly I would not be surprised if a 6.5 upper from them had a few teething pains, but I think I could work them out in short order.  Not sure I would suggest that for someone that was not used to building.

If you find something and want it vetted, shoot me a PM and I will take a look and give you my thoughts.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: ksuguy on May 10, 2018, 10:52:23 am
Magazines are the biggest problem with 6.5 Grendel.

I looked into it since I had plenty of lowers, but decided to just build another 5.56 one with a fancy laminate stock set instead.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 14, 2018, 02:18:12 am
Which pattern does AeroPrecision follow?

DPMS.

The M5 stuff is GTG too.  If I hadn't found the deal I had on the Matrix set I would have gone M5 for my soon to be 260 Remington build.

Reading through this forum again, while I browse and I completely missed the above posts.

So any of this is considered to be in the "good" pile as well?

https://aeroprecisionusa.com/complete-rifles/m5e1-rifles-308.html

I am looking really hard at the Seekins .308, but the aero precision has a similar styling, is less money, and also has a 20 inch version of the .308.

If no one has had any problems with this make/model or points out anything that I need to be cautious of, then this might end up being the one I get  :hmm .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 14, 2018, 09:10:12 am
My only issue with 'em would be them all being labelled as "Out of Stock"... ;)
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 14, 2018, 10:06:49 am
My only issue with 'em would be them all being labelled as "Out of Stock"... ;)

That's a flaw I can put up with  :cool .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: lesptr on May 14, 2018, 11:40:50 am
I’ve only heard positive things about aero, but I’m no expert.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mississippi556 on May 14, 2018, 05:43:02 pm
No personal experience with the 6.5 Grendel, but were I to venture down that path, here's what I would consider doing:

1.  Get just about any reputable stripped upper.  Forging is pretty much commodity now, given the high quality of CNC machining.  Get the BCG I prefer and the rail I prefer, but it would need to be free float design. I understand that the AR bolt extractor may be a bit weak for the 6.5, so either a dedicated bolt or upgraded extractor.

2.  Get the best barrel I could afford, if long range accuracy is the objective. 

I don't want to single out any one company as better than others, but you can do this for well under the cost of any decent AR-10 and get a really nice custom barrel.

I will give an example, but any of the top barrel makers would be comparable.  I have been very happy with the drop in AR15 16" M4 Navy Recce barrel I got from custom barrel maker, Lilja.  It was $480, plus shipping from the manufacturer. 

They do not have vendors.  You deal directly with Fred or Carson Lilja.   That barrel shoots sub 1/2 MOA with my match handloads.  The practical limit being me and my mediocre marksmanship, even at bench.

Lilja makes several drop in barrels in 6.5 Grendel.  I'm sure the other top custom barrel-makers like Kreiger, Bartlein, Shilen, etc., do the same.  Be forwarned:  These barrels will make you want to upgrade other stuff, especially the trigger group, and may lead to handloading if you are not already there.

I cannot address magazine compatibility issues. 

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: ksuguy on May 14, 2018, 05:56:55 pm
Brownells often has the Aero rifles and you can often catch one of their 10% off sales.

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 14, 2018, 06:33:11 pm
Brownells often has the Aero rifles and you can often catch one of their 10% off sales.

 :thumbup1
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 14, 2018, 06:33:55 pm
Saw this and it looks freaking cool :drool .

https://www.springfield-armory.com/products/m1a-loaded-6-5-creedmoor/

I still love M1A's .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Raptor on May 14, 2018, 07:40:27 pm
I hate to be the stick in the mud, but honestly I think your needs would be served perfectly well by a basic, scoped bolt-action rifle in pretty much any standard-length, non-magnum cartridge from .243 Winchester on up to .30-06. Get something like a Ruger American, Howa 1500, or Tikka T3x if you want to splurge, a good scope, and a good shooting sling.

If you insist on a semi-auto, then an AR-10/SR-25 with a free-float handguard is probably the most accurate option, though I confess I don't know enough about the different brands to offer a meaningful opinion.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 14, 2018, 08:35:50 pm
I hate to be the stick in the mud, but honestly I think your needs would be served perfectly well by a basic, scoped bolt-action rifle in pretty much any standard-length, non-magnum cartridge from .243 Winchester on up to .30-06. Get something like a Ruger American, Howa 1500, or Tikka T3x if you want to splurge, a good scope, and a good shooting sling.

If you insist on a semi-auto, then an AR-10/SR-25 with a free-float handguard is probably the most accurate option, though I confess I don't know enough about the different brands to offer a meaningful opinion.

You're not being a stick in the mud at all! I have been kicking around the idea of a bolt gun.

Let's explore these. I have said that I am a handgunner at heart, so I don't know much about rifles, but I have been eyeing the Ruger American's and I still love the Savage FCP. It has a picatinny rail (so I don't have to fuss with any proprietary mounting system), it comes in .308, it has a threaded barrel so when I do decide to do some of that splurging down the road I can supress it, and it has a respectable magazine capacity of 10 rounds. The Savage FCP series strikes me as a very cool and overlooked rifle.

You mentioned two brands that I am not familiar with: Howa 1500 and Tikka T3x. I'll have to look into those as well.

I have heard that 7mm Remington is a flat shooting cartridge that isn't punishing to shoot. I don't know anyone who owns one to shoot it, but I have been curious about getting a rifle in that chambering.

I like the Browning BLR, but I may have to pass it up as an option, I suppose  :-[ .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 14, 2018, 09:38:04 pm
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-barreled-action-varmint-heavy-barrel-blue-308-win-6-prod94612.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=HOWA (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-barreled-action-varmint-heavy-barrel-blue-308-win-6-prod94612.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=HOWA)

Ooo... and they're on sale right now...

^^That^^ plus this -> http://www.rifle-stocks.com/ (http://www.rifle-stocks.com/) could = much fun. Without spending a lot of money.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Kaso on May 14, 2018, 10:35:31 pm
If Raptor is going to put the stick in the mud, then I am going to pull it back out and hose it off.  You want a semi auto.  Less for any imagined DMR scenario, and more for the coyotes and hogs.  Particularly the hogs.  There will be times that multiple hogs present themselves.  Sure it's okay to just take one, but you may as well be able to try for multiple kills in one shoot.  Especially with hogs being smart.  Fool them once...
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 15, 2018, 01:05:01 am
I have also seen hogs take more than one shot to put them down humanely.  Coyotes too for that matter.  While its hard to argue with owning a good bolt gun I would agree with your point and probably opt for the semi-auto in this instance.  If you want an all purpose rifle in the twenty first century its going to be a semi-automatic, no?    :shrug
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Raptor on May 15, 2018, 04:25:51 pm
You mentioned two brands that I am not familiar with: Howa 1500 and Tikka T3x. I'll have to look into those as well.

Howa is Japanese (same company that makes modern Winchester lever guns, I believe) and the 1500 is, IIRC, basically a modified Sako 75 type action. I've seen them get derided as a "budget brand," but my understanding is that they are extremely accurate. Aftermarket support is kinda weak, however Brownells sells barreled actions and stocks, so you can put together pretty much any configuration you want.

The Tikka is Finnish, made by Sako I believe, but the company is owned by Beretta. Again, it's Sako's "budget brand" but still very accurate and high quality. Aftermarket support is out there if you know where to look (I toyed with getting a customizing a T3x for a brief and shining moment) but not as good as any of the "big brands," probably worse than Sako, and it's going to be the most expensive of the bunch, but the Tikka is renowned for having a very "fast" action, i.e. extremely smooth and can be worked quick and ran hard without fear of jamming, so that'd probably be your best bet for varminting if you choose to go with a bolt gun.

The 7mm-08 Remington (not to be confused with the 7mm Remington Magnum) is, as you say, a flatter-shooting, lighter-recoiling option than the .308. I don't have any firsthand experience with it either, but my understanding is that it will do everything the .308 can do until you get up to heavier bullet weights (I think 162-ish grains is the limit for the 7mm). If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at a .243 Winchester, 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 mm Creedmoor, or .260 Remington, but only for the lighter recoil (stupid buggered shoulder). 7mm-08 or .308 will work just fine for your purposes.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Nick Cage on May 15, 2018, 05:10:32 pm
For your described application it sounds like an .308 AR platform rifle would be the best option.
Since Crusader is no more  :'( :'( :'( and you don't want to put one together I'd point you towards Aero Precision, I've got several of their rifles that I've assembled (albeit in .223/556) and have been nothing but thrilled with them.
Ruger makes one I've shot and enjoyed but don't own, same with Wyndham weaponry the fit, finish and accuracy seemed to be on point with both, granted with my sample size of 1 ea.  As with all guns the effective range is going to be load dependent not just caliber. With my Crusader Broadsword I can get consistent hits at 1k on 24" targets, with the right load. Would I want to harvest animals at that range with that gun? Oh hell no but you can hit that far out for sure.

If you decide to go bolt action I'd look at the Ruger RPR (takes SR-25 mags) and the Bergara HMR (takes AICS mags) rifles. Both are excellent rifles that provide top level accuracy and lots of what are normally custom options right out of the box.
Avoid like the Devil any Savage rifle that takes their proprietary magazines they are universally horrific (the mags, not the guns) and obnoxiously expensive!
The Tikka A3 series are solid, but they take a (good this time) proprietary mag which costs a crap ton for spares.
Remington has basically given up on QC these days and you can get better rifles with better features from other manufacturers for cheaper.

But really these days you can get all the accuracy and reliability of a bolt gun in a semi-auto for little to no added expense, I don't see any reason to go with a bolt action unless legally restricted to do so.

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: TommyGunn on May 15, 2018, 07:19:57 pm
Howa is Japanese (same company that makes modern Winchester lever guns, I believe) and the 1500 is, IIRC, basically a modified Sako 75 type action. .....

I thought it was Miroku.  My 1892 Winchester is Miroku ....
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 15, 2018, 08:40:58 pm
Correct.  Miroku builds all the Winchester lever guns.  Howa is good quality stuff though.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Raptor on May 16, 2018, 05:49:03 pm
I thought it was Miroku.  My 1892 Winchester is Miroku ....

Correct.  Miroku builds all the Winchester lever guns.  Howa is good quality stuff though.

D'oh!  :facepalm  My bad. Y'all are right. Big self- :bash for that one.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 16, 2018, 06:19:39 pm
Hey, its all good.  Gentle correction is a hallmark of this place.   :cool
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mississippi556 on May 18, 2018, 03:17:09 pm
I guess I am a self-admitted "stick in the mud".

Bolt guns remain my favorite type of rifle.  I admit a bias toward older Remington 700s before the decline as a result of the Freedom Group acquisition.

A good, lightly used synthetic stocked 700 in '06 or .308 would be an excellent choice as a farm or general purpose rifle where high rate of fire is not needed.   I have several 700 ADL and BDL rifles from the '70s and '80s, and a superb factory Custom Shop 700 Mountain Rifle.  The thing about Rem 700s is that there is such a huge aftermarket for customization.   Almost as much so as with Rem 870 pumps and with AR15s.

One of my Rem 700s is in 7mm Rem Mag.  I do like it and it is fairly accurate (about 1.5 MOA with factory ammo).  It may do better with handloads.  I have the dies for it, but have never gotten around to working up loads.   

I also have an older Winchester Model 70 (transition model from the late '60s) in 7mm Rem Mag.  It is actually a bit more accurate.  But, it is custom stocked and the barrel is free floated, so that may be the difference.

My Custom Shop Rem 700 is in .280 Remington, which is very close to 7mm Rem Mag in actual performance.  That rifle has a blueprinted and trued action and is sub MOA.  But, I doubt you would want .280 unless you handload, as factory ammo is scarce and not very many choices.   It will shoot 1/2 MOA with handloads and about 3/4 MOA with good factory ammo.  So, that tells you a bit about inherent accuracy of a Model 700 action if a good gunsmith gets a hold of it.

A lightly used bolt gun in a popular model with lots of aftermarket parts and that any decent gunsmith can work on blindfolded is always a good choice, either as is, or as a barreled action for something you might want to improve.

A good mid-powered scope, like a basic 2-7x or 3-9x can serve well and not set you back very much.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 18, 2018, 03:40:32 pm
I guess I am a self-admitted "stick in the mud".

Bolt guns remain my favorite type of rifle.  I admit a bias toward older Remington 700s before the decline as a result of the Freedom Group acquisition.

A good, lightly used synthetic stocked 700 in '06 or .308 would be an excellent choice as a farm or general purpose rifle where high rate of fire is not needed.   I have several 700 ADL and BDL rifles from the '70s and '80s, and a superb factory Custom Shop 700 Mountain Rifle.  The thing about Rem 700s is that there is such a huge aftermarket for customization.   Almost as much so as with Rem 870 pumps and with AR15s.

One of my Rem 700s is in 7mm Rem Mag.  I do like it and it is fairly accurate (about 1.5 MOA with factory ammo).  It may do better with handloads.  I have the dies for it, but have never gotten around to working up loads.   

I also have an older Winchester Model 70 (transition model from the late '60s) in 7mm Rem Mag.  It is actually a bit more accurate.  But, it is custom stocked and the barrel is free floated, so that may be the difference.

A lightly used bolt gun in a popular model with lots of aftermarket parts and that any decent gunsmith can work on blindfolded is always a good choice, either as is, or as a barreled action for something you might want to improve.

A good mid-powered scope, like a basic 2-7x or 3-9x can serve well and not set you back very much.

It seems just about every gun store that sells hunting rifles has them topped with a Nikon 3-9x scope, from what I see. I've considered getting one myself  :hmm .

Aren't Remington 700's a little pricy for what you get now days? I'm not sure that I could get my hands on a retro model, other than dad's Remington BDL  :cool .
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mississippi556 on May 18, 2018, 03:52:02 pm
Not only are the current new 700s overpriced for what you get, they are of indifferent quality control, and I am being generous. 

A good used Model 700 from as late as around 2000 is a great choice.

If going new, I'd probably look at Savage 10/11/12 series, as they are very accurate right out of the box.     
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 18, 2018, 03:58:06 pm
There's a trainload of used ones ( older Remington 700's ) for sale out there if that is your choice.  You can usually find one that has been stood up in the gun safe more than it's been hunted with if you look around a bit.
  Another ridiculously competent old bolt action is the Savage 110.  They have been around forever and consistently sell for well under $500.00 used - sometimes even with an inexpensive scope mounted.  At any rate, if you buy an older one before the advent of the Acutrigger you'll get a better piece of wood and Rifle Basix makes an outstanding drop in trigger for them for less not much money.  The Stevens model 200 was the bargain basement version of it with a synthetic stock.  I've seen examples of those for sale ( in the last year or so ) for around $300.00.   Either of those rifles is capable of M.O.A. accuracy - particularly if you get the heavy trigger fixed and put some decent glass on it.
 
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Plebian on May 18, 2018, 07:03:47 pm
If you are going bolt action new, then savage is really tough to beat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Mikee5star on May 26, 2018, 05:47:35 pm
https://gun.deals/product/psa-gen2-pa10-18-mid-length-308-win-stainless-steel-classic-rifle-59999-free-shipping

Probably not a bad starting place for a semi .308.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 27, 2018, 09:24:41 am
Beat me to it...
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Roper1911 on May 28, 2018, 04:50:45 pm
A savage or Tikka T3x in 6.5 creedmore.
6.5 creedmore is ubiquitous, I've seen it in every walmart, every gunstore, everywhere that sells ammo I've seen good, decently priced federal gold metal with Berger 130 OTM
Sellier & bellot sell a 140 grain 6.5 creedmore for $0.65-0.68 A shot which is like- a full buck less then .308

we're in the age of the utility quarterbore. it's cheaper to shoot, as powerful as some .308 loads, lower recoil, has a higher sectional density, better ballistic coefficient, and is now widely available. if I could chamber my FN-FAL in 6.5 creedmore, I would. but for the cost I could get a 6.5 bolt gun, scope and 200 rounds of ammo.
there is zero reason to buy a .308 for a long range build.


Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 28, 2018, 06:52:38 pm
A savage or Tikka T3x in 6.5 creedmore.
6.5 creedmore is ubiquitous, I've seen it in every walmart, every gunstore, everywhere that sells ammo I've seen good, decently priced federal gold metal with Berger 130 OTM
Sellier & bellot sell a 140 grain 6.5 creedmore for $0.65-0.68 A shot which is like- a full buck less then .308

we're in the age of the utility quarterbore. it's cheaper to shoot, as powerful as some .308 loads, lower recoil, has a higher sectional density, better ballistic coefficient, and is now widely available. if I could chamber my FN-FAL in 6.5 creedmore, I would. but for the cost I could get a 6.5 bolt gun, scope and 200 rounds of ammo.
there is zero reason to buy a .308 for a long range build.

Has it really gotten that common?  :o

I might end up getting an AR in 6.5 creedmore if that's the case. I might still get a bolt gun, who knows, but I feel the bolt action platform shines in areas where you can't get a semi auto clambering such as 300 win mag or 338 lapua. Not saying I need or want that extra power, but I feel it's something special that the bolt action platform brings to the table.

Btw, you used some terms I'm not too familiar with and will have to look up, sectional density and ballistic coefficient?
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: Plebian on May 28, 2018, 07:27:34 pm
Btw, you used some terms I'm not too familiar with and will have to look up, sectional density and ballistic coefficient?

Ballistic Coefficient or BC is the drag caused by air resistance. The higher the BC the less speed it loses over a given distance. It is a ratio compared to a known projectile.

Sectional density is how much mass a projectile has per frontal area. A quarter looking at the face has poor sectional density, and an arrow or dart looking from the front has high sectional density. Sectional density can be an indicator of ability to penetrate.

Sectional density, being long compared to width, and Ballistic Coefficient tend to run hand in hand. A long skinny bullet tends to have low drag and high penetration capability. Obviously construction of projectile and material of the projectile can upset this tendency.

I think there was some European folks after WW2 that experimented with aluminum projectiles that were steel jacketed. It was during that whole period of everyone looking for the next greatest infantry rifle. It had a high BC for range but a poor SD.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: sqlbullet on May 28, 2018, 11:09:35 pm
Plebian has given the exact answers I would about what the terms mean.  They are useful in comparing external and teminal ballistics of rounds.

For some examples...

Lets say you wanna compare, fairly, the relative energies of 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 ACP rounds.  Well, for the 40 and 10mm, being the same diameter, you would use the same weight, but what of the 9mm and 45 ACP.  Using the same weight will penalize the smaller diameter rounds with bullets that are heavy for caliber.  Can you imagine a 185 grain or 230 grain 9mm?  And try to find load data for a 147 grain 45 ACP....

Sectional density to the rescue!  A 230 grain 45 ACP is .161, a 180 grain 400 is .161 and a 147 grain 9mm is .167.  This puts them all on equal footing in regards to how much velocity/energy they are gonna need to do a job, assuming similar bullet construction.  And there are plenty of bullet families that support these weights in these calibers.  Same rules would apply to rifle calibers.

It is currently very in vogue to favor rifle rounds designed around long skinny bullets that have high BC and SD.  This is because of the increase in popularity of long range tactical rifle shooting.  I am certainly not immune as my most recent AR-15 build was a 6.5 Grendel, and I have a AR-10 build in progress in 260 Remington.

Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: MTK20 on May 28, 2018, 11:34:23 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: coelacanth on May 28, 2018, 11:54:23 pm
Yup.  Anything from 6mm to 7mm ( .243 to .284 ) is right in the sweet spot in terms of giving you a nice combination of characteristics.  Good ballistic coefficients, high sectional densities ( especially in the heavier bullet weights ), reasonable recoil and good terminal performance. 

Two of the nicest rifles I've ever shot were "quarterbores".   One was a .257 Roberts and the other was a .25/06 (.257 bullet diameter ) and they both opened my eyes to what the smaller rounds could do compared to the larger .30 calibers so common back in the day.  The .308 is a nice round and there have been some fine rifles chambered for it but with the advances in the ammunition world over the last twenty years there isn't a compelling reason to reach for it based on performance alone. 
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on May 29, 2018, 09:04:43 am
MTK20 - At the very least, it sounds like it'd be worth checking out your shops, to see how easily you can find it.
Title: Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
Post by: booksmart on July 10, 2018, 10:04:51 pm
BTW, some of the HOWA 1500 actions are on deep sale on Brownell's right now...

I just ordered the 20" Heavy barrel action for $250, which usually goes for $460...