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Author Topic: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.  (Read 12796 times)

Grant

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Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2018, 06:41:12 pm »
  Quite honestly I like PSA loads better than DPMS and they're alot cheaper.

  I voted Ruger Precision but that is a caveat of "after an AR10", that I'll outline below.

  Get a pre-build freefloat upper from PSA, then either a reciever and build kit, or a built lower.  Watch their sales and you can put one together for $500, or spenjd a bit more and get a premium (FN made CHF barrels) put together for $750-$800.

   They're solid guns, and most always shoot well (all the 5.56 AR's I've had are PSA and all shot 1.5" groups,  just recently toying with one that seems to do 2.5".  but as always.  Wolf gold cheapo .223).

 If you're wanting accuracy, a FAL is out.  They CAN be accurate, they can also be so-so.  Almost any AR will well outshoot a FAL, and mag costs are alot higher and harder to find on a FAL (If you're a mag-hoarder like me that is an issue).

  I disagree with Kaso on a M1A being "overpriced toy you cannot use".  They're relatively accurate (still behind an AR though), they are reliable and have a good enough following there is plenty of aftermarket support.   

 Both of the FAL and M1A are easy to scope.  Are they 1913 picatinny already installed easy?  No.  But there is high quality scope mounts out there to add, no different than scoping a Winchester M70 or Ruger 77,etc.

A Scar-H?  good, not worth the huge $$ output in my opinion.

Savage?  Not a bad gun, but if I were to get a bolt gun I like Rugers ability to swap out and change stuff easily, while taking standard Pmags.

  I wouldnt do the BLR.   ALL the options including the bolt guns have better capacity if you're looking the DMR route. 
 
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    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #26 on: May 06, 2018, 07:39:35 pm »
      Quite honestly I like PSA loads better than DPMS and they're alot cheaper.

      I voted Ruger Precision but that is a caveat of "after an AR10", that I'll outline below.

      Get a pre-build freefloat upper from PSA, then either a reciever and build kit, or a built lower.  Watch their sales and you can put one together for $500, or spenjd a bit more and get a premium (FN made CHF barrels) put together for $750-$800.

       They're solid guns, and most always shoot well (all the 5.56 AR's I've had are PSA and all shot 1.5" groups,  just recently toying with one that seems to do 2.5".  but as always.  Wolf gold cheapo .223).

     If you're wanting accuracy, a FAL is out.  They CAN be accurate, they can also be so-so.  Almost any AR will well outshoot a FAL, and mag costs are alot higher and harder to find on a FAL (If you're a mag-hoarder like me that is an issue).

      I disagree with Kaso on a M1A being "overpriced toy you cannot use".  They're relatively accurate (still behind an AR though), they are reliable and have a good enough following there is plenty of aftermarket support.   

     Both of the FAL and M1A are easy to scope.  Are they 1913 picatinny already installed easy?  No.  But there is high quality scope mounts out there to add, no different than scoping a Winchester M70 or Ruger 77,etc.

    A Scar-H?  good, not worth the huge $$ output in my opinion.

    Savage?  Not a bad gun, but if I were to get a bolt gun I like Rugers ability to swap out and change stuff easily, while taking standard Pmags.

      I wouldnt do the BLR.   ALL the options including the bolt guns have better capacity if you're looking the DMR route.

    Thanks for the difference of opinion and the specifics to go with it :thumbup1 . If I bought a completed upper and lower, there wouldn't really be any "building" for me to do, would there be?  :neener
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    ksuguy

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 08:18:15 pm »
    I've got examples of most of the rifles mentioned.   I'd rule out the SCAR-H just due to price.  They are nice guns, but quite expensive.  If you want a bolt gun, hard to argue with the Ruger Precision, those are very nice and the price isn't too bad. 

    The FAL is my favorite rifle and I have several, but magazines are more expensive than they used to be.  I've still got lots of them from when I was collecting FAL stuff 15 years ago, but expect to pay about 25-30% more than the current rate for AR-10 PMAGs if you are stocking up on them now.  They aren't so expensive that I'd rule out the FAL completely though.  Mounting optics is fairly easy with a dustcover mount.   Really not much worse than with an AR.   Accuracy will be OK, but probably not as good as an AR.   

    The M1A is great if you are looking for a more traditional looking rifle.  The iron sights are awesome,  and magazines are roughly the same price as what you get with the AR.   The accuracy potential is there, but you usually have to spend some cash to get them there.  Out of the box,  it's probably about the same as the FAL unless you get one of the high-end National Match guns.  Scope mounting options are not as good.  You can get good ones, but they are more hassle to install than the other options. 

    I get what you are saying about the AR just not being what you are into.   I kind of feel the same way about them, even though I have plenty of them.   That being said, I think you might like AR-10s more.  I'm not sure why, but AR-10s just seem cooler than their smaller cousins to me.   :shrug   If you do build one,  just make sure you buy the upper and lower from the same manufacturer to avoid compatibility issues.   If you watch for deals at PSA, you can buy a complete assembled lower and upper for $600 or so and all you have to do is put the halves together.  You've got the most options for aftermarket customization with an AR-10 too.       





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    booksmart

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #28 on: May 06, 2018, 08:40:57 pm »
    FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

    But I also like the idea of building a bolt action around the Howa actions offered on Brownell's...  :hmm

    Plebian

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #29 on: May 06, 2018, 08:45:38 pm »
    FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

    But I also like the idea of building a bolt action around the Howa actions offered on Brownell's...  :hmm
    The howa mini action in 223 has my interest very peaked. It could make for a sweet rifle for my wife.

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    ksuguy

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #30 on: May 06, 2018, 09:38:47 pm »
    FWIW, I keep eyeing PSA's AR-10 offerings with serious interest.

    Me too.   I've mainly just held off since it is kind of a hassle to drive over to my dealer for the transfer and I'm running out of space in the safe.   
    Kansas

    Mikee5star

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 11:53:45 am »
    I would suggest you shoot a couple if you can.
    A buddy has a Scar-H and he dumped all his other .308 semi’s, an AR10, and a FAL, after spending some shooting time with the H. He claims it is the softest shooting most accurate .308 he has owned. Well worth the money. I don’t know if it would be worth the premium for you, or for me, but it MIGHT be worth the money.
    I will likely build a AR10 when I have the money. I am just not real impressed with the heavy caliber AR15 options. Just look at what mag the lower is built for. Used to be that there was two patterns of mags and avalibility was somewhat limited on one option.
    Savage made the 99 in .308 if you want a odd ball recomendation. I think it is better than the BLR if you want something different. Also .300 Savage is a capable caliber and might be easier to find.   
    Alaska

    Chief45

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #32 on: May 07, 2018, 12:07:27 pm »
    I've got a de-milled M14.   good condition.   posted a couple of pics a few years ago,  when I refinished the stock it turned out the very nice tiger stripe pattern.  I really like that rifle.

    Main point.
    I'm not a 20 something any more and that durn thing is heavy.  If you add a Bipod, scope and a couple more 10 round mags, well,  it is approaching (or departing) the point of comfortable carry for extended periods.  however, that being said.  I can prone, sit or off hand and fire a healthy number of 308 rounds from that heavy rifle, without my shoulder wanting to take the next 2 days off.  I used mine at an Appleseed shoot a few years ago, and it was, do-able, but after awhile . . .  But,  I really prefer the 308  over a 30-06 for that reason.  The 308 is less harsh.

    Fun point, but keep a good paper record. Finding the ammo your rifle likes.  personally,  mine really, really prefers the 168gr BT.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #33 on: May 07, 2018, 01:18:38 pm »
    Good points.  Most of the rifles being discussed are going to be heavy.  Especially if you start hanging all the aftermarket goodies on them as most folks are prone to do.  I still like a bolt action rifle for most applications that require something you can carry comfortably all day while lugging a pack and capable of first rate long range accuracy.  From a field position, usually sitting with a loop sling snugged up or prone with the rifle resting on the pack, I'm usually able to hit what I need to hit out to about 400 yards with a .308 ( Remington model 788 ) or out to about 500 yards with the 30/06 ( Ruger American or Remington '03/A3 ).   In the field I generally prefer shooting stick(s) to a bipod. 

    As a home defense weapon the semi-auto rifles are clearly superior.  They also have the advantage in a multiple shot scenario when engaged in predator control - particularly if they are manageable regarding recoil for shot to shot sight alignment.  That is where the smaller diameter bullets come in.  Any .308 diameter bullet needs to be at least 150 grains to have any sort of long range potential and most are going to be 165 grains and up depending on your caliber choice.  A 7mm bullet at 160 grains will completely outclass a 150 grain .308 bullet in terms of BC.  So will a 6.5mm bullet in anything from 115  grains to 140 grains.  So will a .224 bullet at 90 grains.  Physics dictates the larger diameter, heavier bullet will have more recoil energy for a given muzzle velocity than the lighter, thinner bullet.   :coffee

    Figure out what your rifle needs to be good at.  Build accordingly.  Buy the very best quality you can afford. 
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #34 on: May 07, 2018, 04:21:27 pm »
    Allow me to be the contrarian in the group.  For the stated purpose, my guess that predators and defense shots will probably not exceed 300 yards, 400 on the outside.

    For that purpose, why not a semi-auto in civilian hunting configuration?  Browning BAR Mk 3 type, synthetic stocked in any one of quite a few large centerfire calibers from .243 Win on up.  A .308 or '06 would be a good general purpose choice.  You could really stock up on ammo or know you can get it at any store that sells ammo anywhere.

    These rifles are more accurate than people give them credit for and tend to be more accurate than lever action rifles.

    They are even available in 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I do not own a BAR, but lots of hunting buddies of mine do.  When hunting deer where ranges are relatively short, I do often carry a semi auto Remington 742.  I have them in '06, .308 and in .280 Remington.  Taken a lot of deer with them over the years, usually with the .280, since I handload for that round with two bolt guns. 

    These semi-auto hunting rifles are 2 MOA rifles with good ammo, but shoot well from a cold barrel, as hunting rifles should.  Groups may open up if trying to shoot 10 shot groups.  They are not designed for high rate of fire, like an AR-10, but weigh only 7 pounds or so.

    Here is my lowly but effective '70s vintage 742.  This one in .308.  You'd be surprised what you can do with a rifle like this as long as you don't push the range too far.  Three shot groups are often the size of a quarter at 100 yards with this one with decent ammo.  They open up to 2" or so with 5 shots.  I suppose I could synthetic stock it, but it's done fine for about 40 years with wood that I take care of.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    RetroGrouch

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #35 on: May 07, 2018, 05:02:05 pm »
    I don't know if I would go with modern production Browning rifles.  I've had nothing but problems from Browning and their customer service.  Buckmark, Hi Power and X-bolt, all have had issues ranging from simple part unavailability, to repairs of NIB warrantee.

    Arizona

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #36 on: May 07, 2018, 07:57:17 pm »
    I've had my eye on a Savage MSR10 Hunter, relatively lightweight for an AR-10 at 7.8lbs, it is a newer AR-10 configuration like the POF-USA Renegade, where they have shrunk down the receivers so they have some AR-15 parts compatibility (unlike the larger DPMS & Armalite receivers).

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #37 on: May 08, 2018, 04:56:24 pm »
    I voted AR-10/LR-308.  Go DPMS pattern, and then ???

    I have a PA-10.  Solid gun.  Can't say much against it.  Lots of hard core AR guys gripe about some of proprietary decisions PSA made in this gun.  But at the end of the day it isn't that much more non-standard than any of the other 308 platform AR's.  And it is well documented which parts you have to get from where and which don't matter.  Can't say that about some of the more obscure marks.  Besides, if you are buying not building, who cares.

    I also have a Matrix Arms receiver set I got on clearance.  I don't know that you really want to build though.

    If I could get a DPMS or SR-25 for the same or less money than a PA-10, I would.  But I wouldn't spend MORE for another brand of rifle that had comparable parts.
    Utah

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #38 on: May 09, 2018, 09:06:19 am »
    Which pattern does AeroPrecision follow?

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #39 on: May 09, 2018, 02:44:16 pm »
    DPMS.

    The M5 stuff is GTG too.  If I hadn't found the deal I had on the Matrix set I would have gone M5 for my soon to be 260 Remington build.
    Utah

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #40 on: May 09, 2018, 03:53:43 pm »
    What is the general consensus on Ruger's SR 762 rifle ?    :hmm
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    Chief45

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #41 on: May 09, 2018, 05:52:20 pm »
    good point and in thinking about it.

    "my" (note the quotation marks) M-14 is residing in my son's gun safe.   guess it ain't really mine anymore. 
    my work rifle (M4) rides in and stays in the work truck.
    so,  for home defense,  well,  short notice it will be one of several handguns, but for long gun use,  it would be my model 94 in 30-30.     

    go figure.    every time I look in my gun safe,  it seems something else has made the trip out to my son's.  rifle or 3, shotguns, or,  hey, wait a minute, when did that go ?  "well Dad,  I'm going to wind up with them anyway" . . . . . . . . . little ,  well,  not so little,   big snot. . . . . .  :neener


    Allow me to be the contrarian in the group.  **SNIP**
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #42 on: May 09, 2018, 07:36:06 pm »
    What is the general consensus on Ruger's SR 762 rifle ?    :hmm

    This is very much my opinions and preferences.  Others will disagree, and it is fine with me if they wanna be wrong. :D

    I don't care for gas piston systems on AR pattern guns.  Lots of reasons.  Strike 1

    The SR762 is really expensive.  Most of that expense is in the already mentioned gas piston system I don't like.  Strike 2

    Finally, I am stuck with all of their compromises and choices in the rest of the gun.  Not that they made bad choices or compromises, but as a guy who kinds likes building AR's it bugs me to live with other peoples choices.  Strike 3.

    If it floats you boat, I am sure it is a solid gun.  But the price and the gas piston really do it in for me.

    Utah

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #43 on: May 09, 2018, 09:03:40 pm »
    Let's venture off of the path a little bit here.

    Let's say I bought a Daniel Defense AR-15. So I would have a reliable and trustworthy brand of AR-15 which would be perfect for SHTF. Then let's say for the back forty I bought an upper in 6.5 Grendel. Who could I buy the upper from for it to still be 'reliable'? Is the AR-15 really so much like legos that I could pretty much buy any type/male of 6.5 Grendel upper and it would still be good to go?  :hmm

    If I did go this route, who would you recommend that makes a good 6.5 Grendel upper?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #44 on: May 10, 2018, 09:58:40 am »
    If you have an in-spec AR-15 lower I would expect this to just work.

    I have built around a dozen AR's.  All of them but one came from parts.  One of them has a PSA upper.  All but two just plain worked.

    The two that didn't were both pistols with barrels from a VERY cut rate supplier, and on inspection the gas ports were ridiculously small.  Drilled them out to spec and they both have run 100% since then.

    It really is just that easy.

    The AR-10/LR-308 is about 90% that easy.  Since there is no mil standard for this platform their is a little bit of variability in parts.  But, the basic system is still well vetted and so the 10% is just in figuring out a few basics about your upper and lower.  It seem intimidating the first time, but then gets easy.

    Now, as to whom I would buy a 6.5 Grendel Upper from....That depends a good bit on a bunch of factors.  I would look at Alexander Arms (premium) and at PSA (budget).  And I would check reddit/r/gundeals.  The nice thing about gundeals on reddit is the comments give you some idea about if it is GTG.

    I might also take a chance on something from a place like Delta Team Tactical...But would advise you not to do so.  It was from them I got the aforementioned pistol barrels.  Luckily I had 5-6 builds under my belt when I did those, so I new right off what to look for.  Similarly I would not be surprised if a 6.5 upper from them had a few teething pains, but I think I could work them out in short order.  Not sure I would suggest that for someone that was not used to building.

    If you find something and want it vetted, shoot me a PM and I will take a look and give you my thoughts.
    Utah

    ksuguy

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #45 on: May 10, 2018, 10:52:23 am »
    Magazines are the biggest problem with 6.5 Grendel.

    I looked into it since I had plenty of lowers, but decided to just build another 5.56 one with a fancy laminate stock set instead.
    Kansas

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 02:18:12 am »
    Which pattern does AeroPrecision follow?

    DPMS.

    The M5 stuff is GTG too.  If I hadn't found the deal I had on the Matrix set I would have gone M5 for my soon to be 260 Remington build.

    Reading through this forum again, while I browse and I completely missed the above posts.

    So any of this is considered to be in the "good" pile as well?

    https://aeroprecisionusa.com/complete-rifles/m5e1-rifles-308.html

    I am looking really hard at the Seekins .308, but the aero precision has a similar styling, is less money, and also has a 20 inch version of the .308.

    If no one has had any problems with this make/model or points out anything that I need to be cautious of, then this might end up being the one I get  :hmm .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    booksmart

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #47 on: May 14, 2018, 09:10:12 am »
    My only issue with 'em would be them all being labelled as "Out of Stock"... ;)

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #48 on: May 14, 2018, 10:06:49 am »
    My only issue with 'em would be them all being labelled as "Out of Stock"... ;)

    That's a flaw I can put up with  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    lesptr

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #49 on: May 14, 2018, 11:40:50 am »
    I’ve only heard positive things about aero, but I’m no expert.


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