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Author Topic: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.  (Read 11966 times)

MTK20

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Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
« on: May 05, 2018, 11:43:50 pm »
The most practical for my money may be the Savage FCP-SR 10 and I really like that rifle. I've been interested in it for a couple years now.

The most common would be the AR-10, but I really don't care for the AR platform, so I would like a bit of discussion on it.

I have yet to own a lever gun and I feel the Browning BLR may be something pretty formidable in 30-06.

The SCAR-H or the Sig 716 would take some saving, but I am determined on this front, that I could pull either off with some time.

While I know optics mounting would be a b____, I absolutely would love to own an M1A. That rifle has called to me for about a decade now.

Whatever gun I decide upon, will be used to clear coyotes and hogs from some land in Texas. Most of it open, but some of it carried through the grasping brush and pines of east Texas.

Don't forget to tell me what scopes you would recommend as well!!!
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 12:42:03 am »
    Top choice: AR-10  Anything that works, free floated barrel and flat top upper.  A variable hunting scope is required here.  BUISs really aren't what this rifle is for.  ETA: If it was me, I would also want a suppressor

    An AR-10 is going to give you your best value for what you want to do.  Semi auto fire is preferable here.  When culling hogs, they will usually come in groups, so make the most of each opportunity to fire.  Not to mention coyotes are damned smart, so if you miss the first shot, it makes sense to have a quick followup available.

    Second choice: SIG 716  A glorified AR-10, that costs more.

    Third choice: SCAR 17  A marked upgrade over an AR-10, but for the price, you could also have an optic and a suppressor as well.  So... No.

    Fourth choices: M1A and FAL  Tied.  Fun, yes.  Efficient, no.  More class and 'cool factor' than an AR-10, but at the cost of magazine price and ease of mounting an optic.  Iron sighted MBRs were outdated in the '50s...

    Dead last: The bolt guns  I love a good Mauser as much as anyone, but what you are looking for is not for hunting - it is for killing.  Either four legged or two legged predators.  Semi auto is best here.
    « Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 12:55:45 am by Kaso »

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #2 on: May 06, 2018, 12:43:15 am »
    While I know optics mounting would be a b____, I absolutely would love to own an M1A. That rifle has called to me for about a decade now.
    Block her number until you can afford guns with no purpose.  Probably at least another decade.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #3 on: May 06, 2018, 01:41:00 am »
    OK. I get that you aren't enamored with the AR 15 rifle but for your stated purpose it would be awfully hard to beat one for the money.  Coyotes and hogs are well within the capability of the AR 15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC.  The 6.5 Grendel is pretty deadly out to 500 yards with a longish barrel and the 6.8 SPC is more at home inside 300 yards with a shorter tube.  A rifle in either of those calibers should do the job nicely IMO.  Another possibility might be the new .224 Valkyrie from Federal and various rifle makers as its a good deal more capable than the standard .223 AR. 

    An AR 10 is going to be like an AR 15 but on steroids - bigger and heavier.  They also don't have the parts compatability of the AR 15 rifles so that might be a factor down the road.

    SIGs are nice rifles but kind of pricey and also kind of proprietary re: parts. 

    The FAL and the M1A are good, capable rifles but unlikely to give you the kind of precision you would seek at long range without spending a trainload of money on either of them. 

    Between the Savage and the Ruger .  .  .  I chose the Ruger because I really like their bulletproof customer service.   The Savage is a good rifle as well but I am partial to Ruger because I have never had one that failed on me .  .  . ever.  I have a Ruger American rifle in 30/06 and like it just fine.  I'm sure the precision rifle will outshoot mine - especially at long - range but for what I do there's no way to justify the extra expense of one.

    If I was going to go to Browning for the "wild card" I think I would pick the BAR over the BLR and specifically the Stalker version with the 22" barrel in 7mm/08.   

    I agree with Kaso that for most of the things you want it for a semi-automatic rifle is preferable in terms of performance.
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    Plebian

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 10:14:00 am »
    Is it required to be in 308? A 6.5 CM will do everything you want better than a 308.

    My vote would be 6.5 CM AR-10 variant. If you just gotta have 308. Then it is only an upper change away.

    My next vote would be Savage in 6.5 CM, and the 308 is only a barrel change away here as well.

    Coelacanth speaks very correctly IMO on getting an AR-15. You can sway uppers for a 224 Valk, 556 or 6.8 SPC and it covers everything you want. It will be fairly cheap, and easy to customize. That is the main selling point of an AR-15.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 11:04:40 am »
    Is it required to be in 308? A 6.5 CM will do everything you want better than a 308.

    My vote would be 6.5 CM AR-10 variant. If you just gotta have 308. Then it is only an upper change away.

    My next vote would be Savage in 6.5 CM, and the 308 is only a barrel change away here as well.

    Coelacanth speaks very correctly IMO on getting an AR-15. You can sway uppers for a 224 Valk, 556 or 6.8 SPC and it covers everything you want. It will be fairly cheap, and easy to customize. That is the main selling point of an AR-15.

    My reason for stating .308 was that I wanted something that would be chambered in a common calibre. I'm not sure how common 6.5 creedmore is. If I did buy an AR in 6.5 CM, then whatever upper in .308 I got, it would also have to be in the same maker wouldn't it? Because the AR-10's are not like leggos, while the AR-15 is?

    Is there really that much of a difference between the 6.5 CM as opposed to the .308? Why would I want this round?  :hmm For now it just seems like a good way to sink money into not only a rifle, but an extra upper too. I'm not seeing the benefits or cost savings in that, and I really want a common chambering in my AR which the 6.5 CM may be defeating my purposes and adding unnecessary expenses.

    Keep the discussion going, I may be missing something here.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 11:15:25 am »
    My understanding of the Creedmoor, is that everything the .308 will do, the 6.5 CM will do better, faster, and flatter.  But do you need it to?  Are you planning to stretch the legs on this rifle, or keep it to within a few hundred yards?  A .308 is a perfectly usable round, and I would choose it for the same reasons that you are.  There just happen to be better rounds out there.

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 11:36:30 am »
    My understanding of the Creedmoor, is that everything the .308 will do, the 6.5 CM will do better, faster, and flatter.  But do you need it to?  Are you planning to stretch the legs on this rifle, or keep it to within a few hundred yards?  A .308 is a perfectly usable round, and I would choose it for the same reasons that you are.  There just happen to be better rounds out there.

    Given the land we have, I don't think I will end up stretching the legs of the rifle. Maybe a 600 yard shot will be the longest I'd have to shoot. Just a guess, no measurements taken right now. It most likely will be much less than that.

    IIRC, one of my old Marine friends said that in his basic they had to shoot at 1000 yards with an M14, open sights. He was Vietnam era. Not saying I'd want to do that, but I cannot imagine .308 not being enough rifle given my sight lines.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 12:06:05 pm »
    600 is probably where I would put the limit on a .308 for humane kills.  Sure, it is lethal much farther, but unlike the army, a wounded target is not preferable to a dead one.

    Ask your friend how large of a target they had at 1000...  I would bet a lot, that it was much larger than a human.  Try seeing a standing man at 500yds+, and see how small they are to the naked eye...  Yeah. :coffee

    I still say as long as the shots are kept to where they are reasonably certain to create a clean kill, a .308 is fine.  And if you ever decide to move to somewhere with more distance, as Plebian said, a 6.5 rifle is only an upper change away.

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 12:14:31 pm »
    600 is probably where I would put the limit on a .308 for humane kills.  Sure, it is lethal much farther, but unlike the army, a wounded target is not preferable to a dead one.

    Ask your friend how large of a target they had at 1000...  I would bet a lot, that it was much larger than a human.  Try seeing a standing man at 500yds+, and see how small they are to the naked eye...  Yeah. :coffee

    I still say as long as the shots are kept to where they are reasonably certain to create a clean kill, a .308 is fine.  And if you ever decide to move to somewhere with more distance, as Plebian said, a 6.5 rifle is only an upper change away.

    I remember what things look like at 500+ yard distances. I have shot prairie dogs and bunnies way out before and we ranged them ;) .

    Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 12:28:17 pm »
    Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.
    This may not be the way you want to go with it, but I would not break the bank.  PSA is probably the floor of what quality I would accept for ARs, but it is also probably what I would buy in this instance.  They also sell on in 6.5 if you want.

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen2-pa10-18-midlength-308-win-ss-lightweight-15-m-lok-acs-l-rifle.html

    Plebian

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 12:29:03 pm »
    I remember what things look like at 500+ yard distances. I have shot prairie dogs and bunnies way out before and we ranged them ;) .

    Right now I'm looking at an AR-10 then and maybe upgrading to 6.5 Creedmore in the future. So rattle off some makes and models, guys. As previously stated, AR's are not my bag.

    An AR-10 in a 308 is going to be just fine for shorter range work. You can always pop for a 6.5 CM upper for later, OR you could even go with a 243 if you want more speed for varmints etc.

    The AR rifles are just too versatile anymore to not go with them IMO.

    I would honestly just go for a PSA lower and upper for your first 308 AR. You can always piece together better parts as you go, and you can figure out what you want and do not want.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    lesptr

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 01:19:16 pm »
    I think what others are saying about the Creedmore is/are valid. However I jumped into the 308 bolt guns early on and I don’t like to add new calibers to stock. I have not ventured into the AR10 arena yet, but I’ve been seriously looking at Seekins Precision. Specifically this.

    http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/ar-lowers/sp10-build-kit-mlok.html

    I have tried some of PSA’s offerings over  the years and have found their quality to be lacking to the point that I won’t buy their stuff again.
    Georgia

    coelacanth

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 01:41:44 pm »
    The best argument for the 6.5 Creedmoor over the .308  Winchester is not the ability of either round to be lethal at 1000 yards - both can be at that range.  Where the Creedmoor excels is in the area of less wind drift.

      Shooting at long range is all about accounting for a combined geometric progression of the various factors involved. The longer the range to the target the more adjustments have to be made to connect.  At a known range with a known rifle and a known load you can align and adjust your sights accordingly, make certain the rifle is not canted, and hopefully trigger the shot without disturbing anything.  Wind drift cannot be accounted for except by estimating the conditions between you and the target.  Speed, vector, gusts, whirlwinds, mirage - all can play havoc with precision shooting at long range and the 6.5 is faster( less time to target )flatter shooting( high BC bullets compared to the .308 )and has less recoil than the .308 in case a follow up shot is needed.

    Hunters all use the concept of MPBR, or Maximum Point Blank Range.  That is the range at which you can simply align your sights with the target, trigger the shot and go collect your quarry.  Essentially it means that the kill zone on the target is large enough to encompass all variables of elevation and prevailing wind conditions if the hunter does his part.  For most .308 rifle and ammo combinations that is going to be around 220 yards give or take a few.  The 6.5 stretches that out to about 275 give or take a few.   Inside of 200 yards flip a coin unless recoil is a factor and in an AR 10 it probably isn't.  Over 300 yards and the 6.5 has a slight edge.  That edge becomes more pronounced every yard the bullet flies all the way out to where the .308 becomes subsonic and the 6.5 doesn't and then it blows the .308 completely out of the water. 

    Cost to acquire and shoot?  The .308 probably wins that one.  Putting the bullet where you want it in a hurry at an unknown range with only an estimate as to wind speed?  The 6.5 Creedmoor takes that contest every day.

    If I were buying a rifle today for the job you described it would likely be an AR 15 in .224 Valkyrie with a 20" barrel a good trigger and all the optics I could afford.  Read up on it.  It's really something.   :cool 
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

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    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 02:07:28 pm »
    I noticed that y'all are edging this towards "building" an AR  :hmm .

    I am not and never have been an AR builder. I just wish to purchase a rifle of good quality.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 02:59:46 pm »
    I noticed that y'all are edging this towards "building" an AR  :hmm .

    I am not and never have been an AR builder. I just wish to purchase a rifle of good quality.
    Okay, then, rule of thumb: The more you pay, the more you get. *

    *a few exceptions apply

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #16 on: May 06, 2018, 03:07:03 pm »
    Okay, then, rule of thumb: The more you pay, the more you get. *

    *a few exceptions apply

    I mean, I know I could save a little money by building, but I don't have any tools and it's gonna be a PITA  :banghead . Not to mention I trust a company rolled AR more than one I built.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #17 on: May 06, 2018, 03:27:22 pm »
    I mean, I know I could save a little money by building, but I don't have any tools and it's gonna be a PITA  :banghead . Not to mention I trust a company rolled AR more than one I built.
    I understood you, and I largely agree.  My comment was directed toward the purchase of a complete AR-10.

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #18 on: May 06, 2018, 04:26:28 pm »
    Been browsing a little bit and the market is saturated with makes and models, I'm not sure where to start to pick  :hmm .

    What about DPMS, Windham, or CMMG AR-10's? I never hear much of them.

    I have always wanted to own something by Rock River.

    The top choice of mine would probably be a Daniel Defense, but I know there are other manufacturers out there and I don't need to drop a ridiculous amount of money just to get decent quality. I feel some makers charge 4k for a gun because they can get away with it (not saying that Daniel Defense is one of these companies).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #19 on: May 06, 2018, 04:38:38 pm »
    DPMS,
    CMMG AR-10's?
    NO.  Back away slowly.

    Windham
    Probably okay.

    I have always wanted to own something by Rock River.
    RRA is a solid choice for 5.56 ARs.  I would assume that this level of quality would translate to their heavies.

    The top choice of mine would probably be a Daniel Defense
    If you can afford it, you will probably not find any better.

    lesptr

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 04:41:20 pm »
    http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-6-5-creedmore.html

    http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-308.html

    Seekins has built options also.

    DD has good stuff
    BCM has good stuff but I don’t know if they have ventured into the AR10/SR25 stuff yet. There are others as well, but quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.
    Georgia

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 04:54:31 pm »
    http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-6-5-creedmore.html

    http://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/modern-sporting-rifles/sp10-308.html

    Seekins has built options also.

    DD has good stuff
    BCM has good stuff but I don’t know if they have ventured into the AR10/SR25 stuff yet. There are others as well, but quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.

    I didn't realise this. I'm definitely going to have to spend more time on their site now  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #22 on: May 06, 2018, 05:23:43 pm »
    ...quality is expensive. DPMS, Windham, RRA, etc is lower end.
    Basically, this.  Though, there is lower end, and just plain garbage.  If you don't get anything else out of this thread, avoid DPMS like the plague.

    MTK20

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 05:58:04 pm »
    I'm sorry to hear that. It looked really promising.



    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    lesptr

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    Re: Buying a (.308) Rifle for Distance.
    « Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 06:35:17 pm »
    The problem there is Nutnfancy


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Georgia

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