Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations? (Read 47277 times)

coelacanth · « **Reply #75 on:** July 25, 2020, 10:17:04 pm »

Yup. There's lies, damned lies and then there's "statisitics".

WeTheArmed.com

Raptor · « **Reply #76 on:** July 26, 2020, 09:46:11 pm »

Anywho, based on the now-bare shelves at gun shops, I changed my recommendations to Mama Raptor a bit and suggested that she go for either a Marlin in .44 Magnum/.44 Special and order .44 Special ammo for it online, or a Ruger PC Carbine or CMMG Resolute in .40 S&W, since both .44 SPL and .40 S&W appear to be at least somewhat available, unlike 9mm and .357 Magnum. I also said that given most manufacturers and distributors are currently backordered for 6-8 weeks minimum (based on what I've seen online) and the delays are getting longer by the day, they really needs to decide on what they want and get it ordered ASAP.

We'll see. She's utterly convinced that Papa Raptor will NEVER go for a semiauto, so it's probably going to be a lever gun of some sort. But we'll see.

EDIT: I also remembered that lever guns are rather prevalent in .45 Long Colt, so I suggested that as well. Alas, Marlin doesn't offer the 1894 Dark in that caliber.

coelacanth · « **Reply #77 on:** July 27, 2020, 02:12:51 pm »

Any of the lever guns should be fairly available compared to semi-auto rifles right now. As you say, 9mm and .357 magnum are really hard to find most places but you can usually get .38 specials and out of a carbine length barrel they are nothing to turn your nose up at - especially at close range. If your individual rifle feeds them well the .38 special may be subsonic even out of a carbine barrel so the muzzle report is less of an issue and with a 158 grain, lead semi-wadcutter the penetration is right in the ball park on gelatin block tests.

The .44 mag/ .44 special option is a good one as is the .45 Colt . Even an older Marlin or Winchester in one of the old time loads is a workable option if nothing else is available. The .38/40 and the .44/40 are both up to the task of predator control as long as bears aren't frequently encountered. These days the old lever gun cartridges are more popular due to the popularity of the cowboy action shooting crowd.

Lever guns are pretty simple and fairly intuitive for most folks but they all have quirks that need to be known and addressed with familiarization drills and training. Side gate loading is pretty fast but folks with reduced hand strength might benefit from a new gate spring with less resistance as it also needs to be depressed and held for quick unloading as well.

The .40 S&W is a good cartridge. I have no problem with it and never completely understood why it was abandoned so quickly by many in the law enforcement community. I like the versatility of having a gun capable of using a second caliber (.357 Sig ) with nothing more than a barrel change and a box of the new ammo.

I guess the two foremost proponents ( and teachers ) of using the weapons at hand to their maximum effectiveness are Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith. Neither spends a lot of time berating the unavailability of proper tactical gear but get right to the crux of the matter - which is training you in threat recognition and effective response. They discuss the pros and cons of various weapons but concentrate more on using them to their best advantage and adapting your tactics to that rather than requiring you to outfit yourself and your family like an infantry squad.

Mr. Ayoob is the more polished speaker of the two and I've never heard him use a single off color word in print or on video - highly recommended.

Mr. Smith is the more colorful of the two and is frequently NSFW but he has the ability to teach the seat of your pants as well as your brain and is unforgettable, both as a character and a teacher. Highly recommended.

Some of their stuff has been posted here previously and a brief foray into the search function here may save you some time but both men know their stuff and can teach it you if you have an open mind and basic comprehension and motor skills.

If MR would like to see some of the same material from a female perspective, I highly recommend Kathy Jackson from the Cornered Cat blog. She is pretty gifted as well and some of her observations and techniques ( mental and physical ) are invaluable to female shooters.

https://www.corneredcat.com/

Raptor · « **Reply #78 on:** July 27, 2020, 02:43:49 pm »

Many thanks.

Mas, Clint, and Ms Jackson were already on my radar, and I've been following all three for years (read pretty much every article on Cornered Cat when I first discovered it). Clint is my go-to resource, but since Mama and Papa Raptor (especially Mama) have the habit of immediately tuning someone out and disregarding everything they say - no matter how valid their points or argument may be - the instant that something that could even be remotely considered profanity exits their mouth, I'll be steering them towards Mas and Cornered Cat.

coelacanth · « **Reply #79 on:** July 27, 2020, 02:48:51 pm »

Raptor · « **Reply #80 on:** August 02, 2020, 02:43:20 pm »

Update: I'll be flying down to visit my folks in a few weeks, and Mama Raptor said she'd be more comfortable if I went to the shop with her (and maybe Papa Raptor if he ever comes around) and helped them make their selection and help walk them through the purchase process. So hopefully we'll have made some serious progress by the end of the month.

coelacanth · « **Reply #81 on:** August 02, 2020, 03:54:47 pm »

Excellent. Good luck and a safe journey.

Raptor · « **Reply #82 on:** August 02, 2020, 06:50:12 pm »

So at Mama Raptor's request, I'm compiling all of my recommendations and advice into a single document (as opposed to the dozen-plus emails I've sent her, plus an unknown number of phone calls). So far I have:

The Four Rules
Why they should look at a semiautomatic (since 99% of their firearms knowledge comes from the news and they thing semiauto = machine gun or some such nonsense
My firearm recommendations, which I've updated in lieu of the panic buying and ammo shortage
What not to buy under any circumstances!
Additional resources - links to info from Kathy Jackson, Clint Smith, and Mas Ayoob

Anything else that you think I'm missing?

coelacanth · « **Reply #83 on:** August 02, 2020, 11:41:08 pm »

Its a good place to start and a synopsis from someone you trust can be worth a lot. More will come into focus as you interact personally with her - both of them, really - on the subject of personal protection. Once they get into the mindset that the gun is not the most important thing it will get easier.

ksuguy · « **Reply #84 on:** August 03, 2020, 09:39:48 am »

Hopefully the local shops have something on the shelves to sell you. You should look around and find ones in their area and maybe call and ask what they have in inventory before you go down there.

Raptor · « **Reply #85 on:** August 03, 2020, 07:04:24 pm »

Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense. I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

Quote from: ksuguy on August 03, 2020, 09:39:48 am

Hopefully the local shops have something on the shelves to sell you. You should look around and find ones in their area and maybe call and ask what they have in inventory before you go down there.

There are quite a few gun shops in the area. I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent. Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon. Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have). I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available. Ammo, on the other hand.....

We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...

LowKey · « **Reply #86 on:** August 03, 2020, 11:30:48 pm »

I'm in the Tampa Bay area and should be home this weekend. I could donate a poverty pony lower to the cause if you wanted to build something for them if the LGS shelves don't have anything suitable.

Quote from: Raptor on August 03, 2020, 07:04:24 pm

Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense. I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

There are quite a few gun shops in the area. I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent. Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon. Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have). I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available. Ammo, on the other hand..... We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...

Raptor · « **Reply #87 on:** August 04, 2020, 09:46:14 am »

Quote from: LowKey on August 03, 2020, 11:30:48 pm

I'm in the Tampa Bay area and should be home this weekend. I could donate a poverty pony lower to the cause if you wanted to build something for them if the LGS shelves don't have anything suitable.

Thank you for the offer, but I'll pass: I currently have a stripped Aero lower that I don't have any plans for, and it wouldn't be right to take your lower when I already have one just taking up space in my safe.

If Mama & Papa Raptor do decide that yes, they want an AR-15 (and if that happens, somebody really needs to check the Seventh Seal!) and I can't find anything on the shelves down in FL when I'm visiting, I'll use the Aero as the basis for a build.

Roper1911 · « **Reply #88 on:** August 04, 2020, 10:49:08 am »

Quote from: Raptor on August 03, 2020, 07:04:24 pm

Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense. I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

There are quite a few gun shops in the area. I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent. Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon. Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have). I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available. Ammo, on the other hand..... We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...

.45, 10mm, .40s&W, ect all seem to be fairly accessible here.

Raptor · « **Reply #89 on:** August 04, 2020, 01:33:33 pm »

Quote from: Roper1911 on August 04, 2020, 10:49:08 am

.45, 10mm, .40s&W, ect all seem to be fairly accessible here.

As of this past Friday evening, my preferred LGS/Range had ZERO 9mm or .380 - not even range ammo - and very limited quantities of .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, and .223/5.56. They had plenty of .40 S&W (enough that I think it was the only pistol cartridge they weren't limiting sales on), as well as a good amount of .44 Mag and even .44 Spl. 10mm has always been a very niche cartridge up here, so they didn't have much of that, but I honestly can't tell if it was less than normal. .308 and 7.62x39 was on the shelves, but nowhere near as much as normal. They had a TON of 6.5 Creedmoor on hand. Didn't notice any .300 BLK, but honestly I didn't think to look for it.

ksuguy · « **Reply #90 on:** August 04, 2020, 02:31:59 pm »

I don't buy a ton of ammo locally. Usually it's online. I have been occasionally watching at Atwoods, the local farm and ranch supply store. I don't usually buy there since their prices are a little high, but they do have some availability. They limit purchases to two boxes per customer. Mostly it's the hunting stuff still around. Lots of 6.5 Creedmoor and bird shot. They have been sporadically getting .50 cal ammo cans full of 820 rounds of 62gr 5.56x45. I bought one of those last week for $400. For handgun ammo, they often have aluminum cased .40 S&W. Some overpriced 10mm and .44 magnum as well. 9mm, .45, .38, and .357 are pretty rare though.

I've already got a lot of ammo, but I don't anticipate things getting better any time soon. Our country (the rest of the world as well) is headed straight into the s___ter. We've been on the edge of disaster for years, and I think we might be past the point of no return. Sure the pandemic is bad, but we've got complete economic collapse on the horizon and I think there is a very real chance we end up with a gang of communists in charge in a few months. Not that the Republicans have done us any favors. A growing number of them are every bit as evil.

What bothers me the most is that corporate America is now fully on board with their bulls___. Especially the tech companies, but I've seen it everywhere in every industry.

RetroGrouch · « **Reply #91 on:** August 05, 2020, 06:52:18 pm »

All the LGS with ranges around here are completely devoid of common calibers like 9mm, 45ACP and 223. Oddly, you can find all the oddball calibers like 380, 38 Super, 10mm, etc. And revolver ammo. One of my favorite LGS without a range has a whole side of the shop stacked with 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, the various 32 calibers, etc.

It looks like there hasn't been as much of a run on those and lever action rifles/carbines.

Raptor · « **Reply #92 on:** August 05, 2020, 07:52:05 pm »

Quote from: RetroGrouch on August 05, 2020, 06:52:18 pm

All the LGS with ranges around here are completely devoid of common calibers like 9mm, 45ACP and 223. Oddly, you can find all the oddball calibers like 380, 38 Super, 10mm, etc. And revolver ammo. One of my favorite LGS without a range has a whole side of the shop stacked with 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, the various 32 calibers, etc.

It looks like there hasn't been as much of a run on those and lever action rifles/carbines.

That's a relief, since that's probably what Mama Raptor's going to end up picking. I talked with her.... yesterday? and offered to build them a basic AR-15 using my Aero lower. She said thanks, but she doesn't want "anything complicated," she just wants "something simple."

Eh, whatever. I think she'll go for it if we can't find anything else suitable while I'm down there.

coelacanth · « **Reply #93 on:** August 05, 2020, 10:24:15 pm »

Keep us posted and remember - even slow progress is progress.

ksuguy · « **Reply #94 on:** August 06, 2020, 01:55:20 pm »

Hopefully you can find something that will work. I know the AR seems a little complicated, but if millions of conscripts and army recruits around the world can manage them, your parents should be fine.
Good luck finding ammo no matter what you end up with.

My parents aren't gun people either. Fortunately they live in a small town about an hour from me, so they really don't have to worry about civil unrest. If they ever do need one, I could just lend them one from my ever growing collection.

cpaspr · « **Reply #95 on:** August 06, 2020, 03:26:39 pm »

I'm going to be a bit contrary here. I'm pretty sure I'm a bit older than Raptor's parents, but not by more than 10 years. (I was born in the late 50s.)

I just sold my one and only AR. I originally sold a Mini-14 to finance the AR, because "ARs are so much better than Mini-14s". Yeah - No, not for me. Yes, it was more accurate than the Mini, and yes, I can "manage" the AR and how it functions, but not quickly.

For M&P Raptor, if they need it they're probably going to need it RIGHT NOW! And having to try to remember the various steps to bring an AR to ready status (because they probably won't keep it in condition 1) can be hard, especially under time pressure.

Now maybe I'm overthinking it, because it would be harder for me than everything else I'm used to, whereas for them there is no "everything else" to compare it to.

Still, with the ammo shortages, I do agree that a levergun that you can actually find ammo for may very well be the best option.

Quote from: ksuguy on August 06, 2020, 01:55:20 pm

<snip> I know the AR seems a little complicated, but if millions of conscripts and army recruits around the world can manage them, your parents should be fine. <snip>

Raptor · « **Reply #96 on:** August 06, 2020, 04:15:40 pm »

Actually, you're probably about the same age as M&P Raptor.

And the AR, at this point, is in the "we can't find anything else suitable" category. Though if we do wind up going with the AR, I'll be encouraging them to store it (actually, I'll be encouraging them to store whatever firearm they go with) in "cruiser-ready" status: magazine loaded, chamber empty, and possibly (if they do get an AR) with the bolt locked open. So all they'll have to do is either rack the charging handle or hit the bolt release and they'll be ready to go.

And I've made this absolutely clear: whatever type of firearm they get, they must get professional training, and they must practice with it.

Roper1911 · « **Reply #97 on:** August 07, 2020, 10:44:42 am »

I'd suggest an SCR if they really didn't want an AR but really *need* an AR. but the SCR has some issues that make it unsuitable in my opinion, specifically the rat-tail buffer has to be very carefully aligned or the gun won't work at all.
as for the AR being "complicated" the rifle is field stripped by pushing 1 pin and pulling the bolt out. you don't need to GI clean the AR basically at all. I just GI'd one of mine after like- 6,000 rounds. you basically just need to oil it every 500 rounds, run foaming bore cleaner through it, then run a ripcord cleaner, then if you want to get fancy, use a bolt scraper. like every 5000

ksuguy · « **Reply #98 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:04:09 pm »

The AR does have extra "stuff" that might confuse a beginner. For example, you've got multiple controls (trigger, safety, bolt release, forward assist, charging handle). Also the charging handle isn't completely obvious. There isn't a big obvious bolt or lever to grab. If you didn't know what it was, I can see how someone new wouldn't know how to operate it.

Of course maybe that's due to all the Counterstrike I played in college where the dumbass animator had the character pulling on the forward assist to charge the M4. They also had all the weapon models mirror image flipped since he was left handed and was too fluffing lazy to fix the weapon models.

Raptor · « **Reply #99 on:** August 08, 2020, 01:18:20 pm »

Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it." On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

What say y'all? Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?