Well, poop.  Sorry for her discomfort and inconvenience.  We're still hoping for a miraculous recovery.   

Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).

Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).

I've handled and shot a couple of the Henry rifles - both rim fires - and they appear to be well made and reliable.  No experience with the center fire guns but my experience with the rim fire rifles is encouraging.

The Rossi '92's are OK but they could stand some slicking up and that goofy safety they have on top of the bolt is weak IMO.  They're good basic rifles but a little rough - many are in operation in the cowboy action world and have been extensively worked over.  They are frequently selected over a modern American rifle because that safety is easy to remove and the side(s) of the receiver aren't marred by a crossbolt design. 

My own rifles are Winchesters and Marlins.  Not necessarily better for your application - just different.  Marlins are easier to take down and clean but run a bit heavier and aren't as lively in the hand as a Winchester IMO.  They do seem to work slicker over time and some prefer the stock shape on the Marlin over the straighter, plain vanilla Winchesters.  For a modern rifle in a self defense scenario I would prefer no safety except for the half cock notch on the hammer but for MR & PR I think the crossbolt design makes sense given their novice gun handling skills.   

Sometimes simple is good.  If the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" is appealing it may be easier to learn and get practiced with than something more complex and intimidating.  I have hunted and fished and camped all over Arizona and much of the southwest for years armed with a lever action rifle and usually a double action revolver as back-up.  At no time have I felt poorly armed.  For many years my "in the tent, in the sleeping bag" gun(s) have been a side by side 12 gauge hammerless "coach gun" with the barrels shortened to just over minimum legal length loaded with heavy buck shot and a S&W Model of 1989 625 running .45 Auto Rims and stout loads of hard cast lead.   I don't always have unauthorized guests snuffling around the camp site but when I do those are comforting things to have in hand.      

They wouldn't be my first choice if I knew I was going to be involved in a running gun battle or a home invasion scenario with a half dozen attackers but I am well practiced with them and prepared to give a good account of myself where I decide to make contact.  Just my $.02 worth.

Agreed.  Comfort counts for a lot in stressful times and stressful situations and, as you say, whatever they decide on is better than what they have now.   

Another choice that may be worthy of consideration is a youth sized 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun.  Something like Mossberg's SA 20 Youth Bantam is small enough and light enough to be used indoors and the recoil is roughly half that of one of the bigger 12 gauge guns.  If you've not seen what a 20 can do on the receiving end - let's just say it shades everything we've discussed so far.   If time is really short and the first shot has to count, there is little else that says "FOAD" with as much emphasis as the shotgun.  And, like the side gate loaded lever actions they can have the magazine topped up without removing the gun from the shoulder if necessary.       

I'm not really trying to talk MR and PR into three gun competition territory here but those reloading drills can be taught and practiced regularly with dummy ammunition until proficiency is achieved.  It will also pay dividends when range day comes in the form of reduced times for reloading and subsequent target acquisition. 

Not at all.      If you recall I was the one who ventured a suggestion along those lines previously.      An awful lot of people learned to shoot with a wheel gun - whether single action or double action.  Good shooting habits from those early experiences are an important stepping stone when the shooter decides to upgrade to a pistol.   

I think my favorite home defense load for buckshot in the 20 gauge is the 2 3/4" shell with one of the smaller sizes of buck shot - #1, #2, #3, or even #4 if that is all that's available.  All will give adequate penetration in a self defense scenario. 

Even the buck shot rounds have considerably less recoil than the 12 gauge and when fired in a semi-auto the gas action soaks up some of that as well.  Still, they are going to kick more than a pistol caliber carbine or a lever action rifle in .38/.357 mag.  Maybe the rifle first and work up to the shotgun later?   

Well, for what its worth, none other than the folks at the illustrious "Gunsite Academy" offer a "Defensive Lever Gun and Single Action Revolver" class that runs 5 days and is apparently very comprehensive.  So, its not just us who think its a viable option for self defense.   

Glad to hear.  Here's to a speedy recovery!

Yes, glad to hear that MR's situation is not more serious.  Range of motion type of movement(s) helped my Dad some years back when trying to recuperate from a similar injury.  Has the doctor recommended any physical therapy for her?   

Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


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That load is a good one.  I fired some through my old Browning Auto 5 a while back and it ran like a champ.  I think Rio also loads a shell with #1 buck shot but I haven't seen any for a while.  I'd love to see a home defense specific model of that SA 20 Youth Bantam for the ladies and other smaller framed shooters.  If there is one on the Mossberg site I must have missed it.  I like my 930 SPX but its a big, heavy bastage and a little unwieldy in some spots inside the house. 

Not meaning to digress from Raptor's thread, but this confuses me.  It implies (from the wording) that the chamber is loaded with the safety on, or that the chamber is empty with the safety off.  But it could randomly be either one.    

If instead you meant "take the safety off and rack the slide", then I have to ask why have the safety in the on position on an empty chamber?  If it's empty, the safety in the on position is not needed.  Once a shell goes in the chamber, in the house, is no time to be screwing around with the safety, because there is apparently a credible threat that may need shooting in the very immediate future.

Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


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IIRC, there are some single- and double-barrel shotguns that automatically re-engage the safety every time the action is opened.

Ahh.  I assumed (and we all know what havoc that can entail) that he was referring to semi-autos for both shotguns.  A single- or double-barrel gun with chambers loaded and safety on for one of them and a semi-auto with an empty chamber and safety off for the other would fit the original parameters.

Well, some of us have only recently been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the twenty first century.  I'm not naming names but we know who we are .  .  .  wait .  .  .    .  .  .   

Glad MR is on the mend and feeling up to a challenge and with any luck PR will come around to the idea and be helpful.   

Glad she's back to full strength and orneriness.       The old saying used to be: "Never attribute anything to malice that's adequately explained by stupidity." but the modern corollary to that adds " .  .  . or politics." to the original version.   

Just follow the money.  City of Phoenix is sitting on close to $300 million dollars in federal funds allocated to Covid 19 relief and so far they've spent less than a million of it on local testing and just over a million on local art projects to support the mayor's voting base.