Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations?  (Read 5603 times)

coelacanth

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 9921
  • eccentric orbit

  • Offline
Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2020, 12:43:51 am »
Agreed but literally any firearm discharged indoors without hearing protection is disorienting and painfully loud.   :shocked

A shop I used to frequent years ago had a nicely configured test range in the basement.  A single lane affair used by both the on site gunsmith(s) and customers who wished to test fire used guns prior to purchase.  It had state of the art ( for the 1980's - 90's ) equipment including ventilation and sound deadening as well as an engineered backstop.  When it was in use, not only could you plainly hear it upstairs, the shots were also distinguishable from the background noise on the sidewalk in front of the building on a city street.  Including suppressors in the NFA was and is just plain stupid.   :facepalm
Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                               Benjamin Franklin

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #26 on: June 28, 2020, 08:44:16 am »
    A shop I used to frequent years ago had a nicely configured test range in the basement.  A single lane affair used by both the on site gunsmith(s) and customers who wished to test fire used guns prior to purchase.  It had state of the art ( for the 1980's - 90's ) equipment including ventilation and sound deadening as well as an engineered backstop.  When it was in use, not only could you plainly hear it upstairs, the shots were also distinguishable from the background noise on the sidewalk in front of the building on a city street.  Including suppressors in the NFA was and is just plain stupid.   :facepalm

    There's a shop not far from where we used to live (south of Pittsburgh) that had a range in their basement.  Decent facility (not the nicest, but far from the worst I've ever been to).  Same deal: you could hear the shots from up on the shop floor, and if you stood above where the firing line was, you could sometimes feel the floor shake from the concussion if somebody touched off a big bore or a .223.  Didn't often frequent that place (the range was one reason, stupid-high prices and an indifferent staff being the main one).

    It's awfully telling that even in countries with ludicrously strict firearms regulations (looking at you, UK!) suppressors are pretty much considered a mandatory shooting accessory.  If I had my way, I'd have Mama & Papa Raptor rolling with suppressed .300BLKs. Full-auto, of course.  Stupid NFA.

    And good news: spoke to Mama Raptor this morning, and she's feeling "a little stiff and a lot sore," but other than that she's OK.  Thank God: she has osteoporosis, so things could have been much worse, as in "broken hip and shattered elbow" worse.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 04:46:52 pm »
    Yup.  This getting old thing isn't for sissies.  Ask me how I know.   :cool   Glad she's feeling better and that there was no lasting harm done. 

    Regarding sound and particularly high decibel levels, I've been around some pretty loud stuff not even counting firearms. 

    Back in the day some of the farm equipment we used was really noisy and when I was a kid they still allowed military jets to go supersonic over populated areas at lower elevations.  Those sonic booms rattled the windows sometimes.  Later on when I lived near a military gunnery range you could hear and sometimes see the muzzle flashes of heavy artillery pieces and the concussion from those could be heard for miles.  Where I live now is a few miles from a motor sports park and they have a man made lake there where they have a big drag boat event a couple of times a year.  When they drop the hammer on those things the roar of the engines is incredible.  I am roughly four and some change miles away as the crow flies and even over all the rest of the urban noise its loud enough to interrupt a conversation held outdoors.  :shocked

    None of that stuff has the impact of being inside a house without hearing protection when a rifle is fired.  The first time you experience that it makes you want to crawl under something and hide. 

    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #28 on: June 28, 2020, 05:34:41 pm »
    Yup.  This getting old thing isn't for sissies.  Ask me how I know.   :cool

    Tell me about it.  I had Lyme Disease when I was a little kid, now I sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies when I move.  I used to joke that I'll probably need a walker by the time I'm 40.... about a year ago it stopped being funny.

    I think Papa Raptor will do better with the loud noises once Mama Raptor finally drags him to the range.  He's an amateur handyman and woodworker (in the sense that he didn't do it for a living, not that he is unskilled).  He's owned and used a large variety of power tools -- most of them quite loud -- for as long as I can remember.  Seriously, walking into Lowes or Home Depot with him is like walking into a well-stocked gun shop with me.  Like a kid in a candy store... but I digress.  He picked up a nail gun a few years back -- I think it's powered by compressed air but can't remember -- that has a report that's comparable in volume and intensity (to my untrained ear, at least) to a .22 LR rifle.  Definitely high enough dB level that you need to wear ear protection if you're in the same room.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4971

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 05:43:18 pm »
    Hopefully they can find a good outdoor range.   Indoor ranges do tend to get loud, even with doubled up hearing protection.  For someone that is already bothered by noise and recoil,  it's not the best environment.   

    Even if their particular gun isn't an issue,  if there are half a dozen other guys there blasting away with ARs or .44 Magnums, it's going to give them a bad experience.   
    Kansas

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #30 on: June 28, 2020, 06:02:12 pm »
    Hopefully they can find a good outdoor range.   Indoor ranges do tend to get loud, even with doubled up hearing protection.  For someone that is already bothered by noise and recoil,  it's not the best environment.   

    Even if their particular gun isn't an issue,  if there are half a dozen other guys there blasting away with ARs or .44 Magnums, it's going to give them a bad experience.   

    I've looked, but haven't been able to find any outdoor ranges near them.  Hopefully the locals (they've asked friends for recommendations) know better than I do.

    That's what turned Mama Raptors first and so far only range trip into an utter disaster: it was an indoor range, it was extremely crowded (I'd picked a date and time when it was usually deserted, just my luck), and the guy on the lane next to us was shooting a compensated 10mm pistol.  I honestly can't blame Mama Raptor for calling it quits after five minutes and not wanting to ever do it again: like I said, that compensated 10mm was extremely unpleasant to be next to on the range.  Every time that thing touched off, it was like getting one-two sucker punched in the teeth and the gut by Bruce Lee.  Single most unpleasant range experience I've ever had.  And that includes the time I had a guy on one side of me shooting a .44 Mag and the guy on the other side of me shooting 12-gauge slugs, and the time somebody mag-dumped a full-auto, 10.5" .223 AR-15 without warning two or three lanes over.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #31 on: June 28, 2020, 07:02:54 pm »
    A CCW trainer might be of help finding a suitable place - assuming you find one you trust.   Sometimes local ranges make contractual arrangements with them - or at least they did before the sales of guns and ammunition increased by 80% this year.    :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #32 on: June 28, 2020, 11:31:09 pm »
    A CCW trainer might be of help finding a suitable place - assuming you find one you trust.   Sometimes local ranges make contractual arrangements with them - or at least they did before the sales of guns and ammunition increased by 80% this year.    :hmm

    Mama Raptor's friends have made recommendations.  One fringe benefit of my parents moving into a firmly-majority-conservative area (FINALLY! #hallelujah!) is that almost all of their neighbors (from what I understand) own guns, and several of Mama Raptor's lady friends have invited her to go shooting with them in the past.  And I did tell Mama Raptor to pick an instructor and get on their calendar ASAP since odds are pretty good that all the local instructors are booked for the next several weeks at minimum.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #33 on: June 29, 2020, 01:22:01 am »
    Sounds like things are on the right track.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    booksmart

    • Token Left Leaning Idealist Libertarian
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6576
    • E. Pluribus Unum.

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #34 on: June 29, 2020, 11:23:17 am »
    Out of curiosity, why are you limiting to 9mm?

    There are plenty PCCs in other effective calibers, that may be more appealing to Mama Raptor... certainly less military looking.

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2224

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #35 on: June 29, 2020, 11:37:18 am »
    Just catching up on my reading.

    Responding to a few posts back, I'm taking my AR in tomorrow and consigning it.  I sold an early 80s Mini-14 to finance the AR several years ago, and have basically regretted it ever since.  I just don't like the way it works.  The bolt, the safety, the bolt hold open - all strangely placed and different from anything else I've ever used.

    And I''m hoping to replace it with a current production Mini-14, whenever my LGS can find one once the AR sells.  I like the caliber, just not the AR platform.

    In the meantime, I have a .30 Carbine that I'm quite comfortable with, should a need arise. 
    Oregon

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #36 on: June 29, 2020, 11:55:38 am »
    Out of curiosity, why are you limiting to 9mm?

    There are plenty PCCs in other effective calibers, that may be more appealing to Mama Raptor... certainly less military looking.

    Combination of price point, comparatively lower recoil & muzzle blast, relative availability, and relative effectiveness.  And if they ever decide to get CCW permits, then possible ammo compatibility with their future pistol(s).

    The fact that they're "military looking" hasn't been an objection at all.  Far from it, when the rioting first stared, she said "Remember how I could never understand why you thought you needed an AR-15 and all those high-capacity clips?  I get it now."  The fact that two of her nieces live in cities where riots occurred -- in one case they rioted on her block,  in another they attacked and torched the structure directly across the street from her apartment building (both are fine, thank God, and neither lost any property or possessions to the violence) -- really drove the point home.  One niece is in Kansas City, and knowing that side of the family, I suspect she'll be packing heat sooner rather than later.  The other lives in NYC, so she's screwed.

    On the off-chance that "military looking" does become an issue, right about the time I bought my first pistol, Mama Raptor said that she wanted (and I quote) "an Annie Oakley gun."  So I'm keeping a lever-action .357 in my metaphorical back pocket as an alternative.

    That said, I did make it clear to Mama and Papa Raptor that these are just suggestions and if they ultimately decide to go with something else, that's cool (unless it's something god-awful or stupid like a Judge or a .22). 
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 12:00:26 pm »
    Just catching up on my reading.

    Responding to a few posts back, I'm taking my AR in tomorrow and consigning it.  I sold an early 80s Mini-14 to finance the AR several years ago, and have basically regretted it ever since.  I just don't like the way it works.  The bolt, the safety, the bolt hold open - all strangely placed and different from anything else I've ever used.

    And I''m hoping to replace it with a current production Mini-14, whenever my LGS can find one once the AR sells.  I like the caliber, just not the AR platform.

    In the meantime, I have a .30 Carbine that I'm quite comfortable with, should a need arise. 

    Cool.  I personally like the AR platform, but definitely roll with whatever you're more comfortable & familiar with.

    Though if you don't pick up one of these (https://www.samson-mfg.com/a-tm-folding-stock-for-the-ruger-mini-14.html) for it -- and a modded GMC Venture van --  I will be extremely disappointed.  :P ;) :cool
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2224

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #38 on: June 29, 2020, 08:42:07 pm »
    Hmm.  I'll take that under advisement.  Gotta get the Mini first.

    I remember seeing the A-Team van at Universal Studios theme park back in about 2000.   :thumbup1

    It was just parked, out in the weather.  Near the Magnum PI Ferrari, IIRC.  They were not aging well.   :banghead


    A friend showed me a .30 Carbine he had recently acquired about a year ago.  It had an original folding stock.  And a giggle switch slot.  No giggle switch, just the slot.  Apparently the gun originally left the factory as a paratrooper M2 during WWII.
    Oregon

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #39 on: June 30, 2020, 10:02:59 am »
    Not gonna lie, I'm seriously considering tracking down a used stainless Mini-14 solely so I can get one of those stocks and pretend I'm Faceman (not old enough to pass for Hannibal, not crazy enough for Murdock, and Mr. T would probably hunt me down and whoop my ass if I tried to pass myself off as him).

    Anyways, stumbled across the new SIG M400 TREAD COIL (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sigm400-tread-coil.html) yesterday.  Even though I haven't mentioned AR-15s at all to Mama and Papa Raptor, I passed it along since, given all the upgrades and accessories it comes with, it's crazy-good value for the money.  Spoke with Mama Raptor later, and while she hadn't looked at it yet, she was almost certain that Papa Raptor will never agree to an AR.

     :facepalm

    Oy.  That probably means that the CMMG is out, and possibly the Scorpion too.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    booksmart

    • Token Left Leaning Idealist Libertarian
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6576
    • E. Pluribus Unum.

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #40 on: June 30, 2020, 09:39:59 pm »

    On the off-chance that "military looking" does become an issue, right about the time I bought my first pistol, Mama Raptor said that she wanted (and I quote) "an Annie Oakley gun."  So I'm keeping a lever-action .357 in my metaphorical back pocket as an alternative.


    Glad to hear your family's safe.

    Funny you should mention that... it's exactly what I was going to suggest.  The recoil on a .357 carbine should be pretty manageable, even for a novice shooter.

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #41 on: June 30, 2020, 10:16:17 pm »
    They are handy guns and easy to shoot but the downside is they are slow and hard to load or reload in comparison to more modern designs.  People with diminished hand strength can find the loading gate hard to manage on unmodified guns.  Marlins, in particular, can be fussy about feeding .38 specials reliably.  Most designs also preclude mounting any sort of modern weapon light.   :hmm

    If I was going to give one of those to a novice to use as a home defense gun I would make sure I had a gunsmith go over it with a critical eye beforehand.  Some gunsmiths specialize in the lever guns used for the cowboy action shooting crowd and if you've not handled one that has been worked over by one of these guys they are a slick handling revelation.   

    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #42 on: July 01, 2020, 10:55:59 am »
    They are handy guns and easy to shoot but the downside is they are slow and hard to load or reload in comparison to more modern designs.  People with diminished hand strength can find the loading gate hard to manage on unmodified guns.

    Yep.  Which is why I'm recommending the semiautos first and keeping the lever guns in reserve.

    And potentially bad news: Mama Raptor's elbow is still bothering her, to the point where she's concerned that it's broken again (long story), but she doesn't have a doctor anymore (longer story; stupid insurance) and doesn't want to go to an ER and sit for hours with a bunch of potential COVID-positive folks.  Given that she's an asthmatic, I don't blame her.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #43 on: July 01, 2020, 11:11:52 pm »
    Ouch.  Minor fractures in smaller bones are troublesome no matter one's age but healing takes longer as we get older.  Ask me how I know . . .  :cool

    My doctor retired and I haven't been able to find a decent one since.  That is the second time that exact scenario has played out in the last ten years.   :facepalm

    I'm hoping she's as physically tough as her mindset and that the elbow is quickly healed. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4971

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #44 on: July 01, 2020, 11:36:31 pm »
    An M1 Carbine might work too.  Short and handy and reasonably powerful out to a couple hundred yards.   The downside is they are a little on the pricey side compared to other options.  Even one of those reproduction ones will cost more than all your other choices.    Also, you will get slightly more muzzle blast and no pistol compatibility aside from obscure guns like the .30 carbine AMT Automag.

    Kansas

    booksmart

    • Token Left Leaning Idealist Libertarian
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6576
    • E. Pluribus Unum.

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #45 on: July 02, 2020, 11:33:19 am »
    I would offer up the Beretta CX4 Storm, but the cocking mechanism and trigger are *REALLY* stiff* out of the box, and really need to be replaced with the Papa Sierra group before it can be used, and even then it may be too stiff for her, if she's having elbow issues.


    *One of the times I handled one, I tried to hold the carbine at hand's length and pull back the cocking mechanism. Could NOT do it; I *had* to have it up to my shoulder, and push the cocker back with my left hand.  While I will freely admit I am not Samson, it was pretty stiff.

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #46 on: July 02, 2020, 12:18:00 pm »
    I handled and fired a CX4 a few years ago, that belonged to former WTA member (I think; haven't seen him around at all lately) Kaso.  Honestly, I wasn't impressed: the cocking mechanism was very stiff and the trigger very heavy (as you mentioned), the overall ergonomics felt kind of funky, and the length of pull was too long even for me (though I know that can be adjusted).

    Though to be honest, the main reason I didn't put it on the list is that I could have sworn it was out of production.  Checked Beretta's website just now and it turns out I was mistaken.

    Good news, though:  spoke with Mama Raptor this morning, and the pain in the elbow appears to have subsided significantly.  And unlike last time she broke it, there's no apparent swelling and she has full range of motion.  She's thinking that it's just a really bad bruise, possibly a bruised bone, and that yesterday was just a bad day. It's her hip and her bum that are bothering her today: she also landed on her rear pretty hard when she fell.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    GaBoy45

    • WTA LEO
    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1411

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #47 on: July 02, 2020, 01:29:13 pm »
    That’s good to hear. Glad she is okay.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “It takes very little to govern good people. Very little. And bad people cant be governed at all. Or if they could I never heard of it.”
    ― Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 9921
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #48 on: July 03, 2020, 12:21:27 am »
    Agreed.  Tell her we're all rooting for her.   :cool
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6851
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #49 on: July 04, 2020, 02:45:26 pm »
    Went to the range today (and shot an honest-to-Browning Tommy Gun because AMERICA!), and the store was all but picked clean of semiautomatic long guns.  Even the pistol selection was far more depleted than usual.  Chatted briefly with one of the clerks, and their supply channels are all back-ordered for weeks, at minimum.

    So I let Mama know that a semi-auto PCC probably wasn't a realistic choice and sent her a short list of lever-action rifles in .357 Mag to consider instead.  I spoke to her briefly on the phone first to let her know the list was coming, and she says it's probably for the best since Papa Raptor would probably be more open to a "cowboy gun" than any of my earlier suggestions.

    Unfortunately, Mama Raptor is no longer convinced that the arm isn't broken or at least badly sprained: The pain isn't getting worse, but it hasn't noticeably decreased either, and she says that there appears to be a "divot' in her wrist (whatever that means).  So she's definitely going to get it checked out at some point soon.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.