WeTheArmed.com

Weapons and Gear => Rifles => Topic started by: Raptor on June 12, 2020, 05:45:20 pm

Title: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 12, 2020, 05:45:20 pm
So, the short version is that Mama Raptor is finally giving serious consideration to buying a gun for home defense.  We're still a ways off from her actually deciding to make a purchase, and this is almost certainly going to be a weeks-long process at minimum, but she's starting to ask me questions - and good questions at that.  Today's question was whether a pistol or a rifle would be better for home defense.  I answered that the rifle is easier to learn how to shoot since it's a more stable platform, but that the downside with rifle calibers vs. pistol calibers is that rifle calibers generally have far more muzzle blast and concussion, which I know from past experience Mom does not like: her first - and so far, only - range trip was a complete disaster thanks in large part to the compensated 10mm pistol on the lane next to us (which was the single most unpleasant firearm I've ever had the displeasure of standing next to whilst being fired).

Therefore, I'm recommending that she get a 9mm pistol caliber carbine of some sort.

Again, this is still a ways off, but I'm putting together a list of PCCs to suggest when the time comes.  Only trouble is is that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the PCC market as I probably should be, so any suggestions you all have would be extremely helpful.  We're early enough in the process that we haven't come up with a budget yet, but I've set a $2,000 MSRP limit (and knowing Mama and Papa Raptor, they'll probably want to spend much less than that).  Other than that and being chambered in 9mm Para, I really don't have any other limitations or criteria.  Here's what I've come up with so far:

-- CMMG Resolute Mk9 (straight-blowback, Colt SMG mags)
-- CMMG Resolute MkG (radial-delayed blowback, Glock mags)
-- CZ Scorpion EVO S3
-- PTR 9R 608 (PTR's take on the HK94)
-- Ruger PC Carbine
-- SIG MPX PCC
-- KRISS Vector CBR

Any others that I should add to (or remove from) the list?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT TO ADD: a simpler takedown process and/or action would probably be best.  Mama Raptor is, shall we say, not the most mechanically or technologically competent person in the world.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 12, 2020, 06:31:03 pm
Of the ones you list I'd recommend the Ruger PC carbine or the CZ Scorpion EVO.  I've handled both and found them easy to point, intuitive to operate and both have acceptable triggers out of the box.  Accuracy is decent from both and they seem to have good reviews from the reliability standpoint.  I like the fact that the Ruger is a take-down model and that it can be had to run with Glock magazines as well as the Ruger SR mags.

Honestly, if you think this is something that may not have a good chance of being accepted I would go with one of the lesser priced models.  I would even consider a High Point as something to introduce the concept.  They are cheap and reliable.  Along with heavy and fugly and usually in stock.   :cool

If you can find a used Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm that would also be an option.  If you find one of those make sure the recoil buffer is in good shape or buy a few on line.  They are easy to install and make the gun much more pleasant to shoot.

Another gun that may not have occurred to you is one of the newly manufactured M1 carbine models from Auto Ordnance/Kahr or Inland Mfg. .
Decent punch for a defensive carbine, very little recoil and the muzzle blast is not magnum level stuff either.   

Buying something inexpensive and reliable and spending the money left over on ammo and any needed accessories seems preferable to dropping a huge wad of money on something that may not meet expectations, no?    :hmm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 12, 2020, 06:47:45 pm
I thought about the Inland/Kahr M1s, but I've heard repeated less-than-good things about build quality and QC for both brands.  Otherwise, they'd be perfect.

I'm leery of buying used since I'm in Pittsburgh and Mama Raptor is down in Florida.  She doesn't know what red flags to look for in a used gun and there's no guarantee that I'll be able to fly down there to help her pick out the actual gun.

Honestly, the Ruger PC and the CZ Scorpion were my first choices, I just wanted to have extra options in case she decides she doesn't like either of them.  If the PC came with the Glock mag adapter installed from the factory it'd be just about perfect (Papa Raptor.... isn't a fan of guns, and while I'm 99% sure he has the necessary tools, I'm not 100% sure he'd install it for her).

Another, though definitely less ideal, option would be a lever-action .357.  Back when I was finally convincing Mama and Papa Raptor to let me own and keep a gun in their house, Mama Raptor said that she'd like to have an "Annie Oakley Gun."  So maybe something like a Rossi R92, Marlin 1894, or an Italian-made 1873 clone from Cimarron, Taylor's, or Chiappa might fit the bill.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 12, 2020, 08:02:17 pm
I would go for the Ruger PCC with a red dot.   Its a capable gun, reasonably priced, and you can get the less "tactical" version that they may be more comfortable with.  I wouldn't worry too much about the Glock adapter. If you buy a few SR9 magazines that will be fine.  Your parents are not gun people so compatibility with their existing hoard of Glock mags isn't a concern.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 12, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
I don't think "tactical-ness" is too big of a concern, since Mamma Raptor initially said, and I quote, "I don't want a dinky little pistol.  That's not gonna cut it: I want one of those AK things that you and Uncle Bobby have!" (For the record, both Uncle Bobby and I have ARs, and I don't believe he has an AK, but I could be wrong).  I'd prefer that they set the PCC up to run with Glock mags primarily because Glock mags are a) easier to find (in my experience) and b) there's minimal risk of confusion (no calling me up and asking "will this magazine fit in my gun?") or accidentally buying the "wrong magazine" (i.e. she buys a Ruger mag, but it's for an old P-Series gun).  If I can tell her to "just buy Glock 9mm mags and you'll be fine," that'll make everyone's lives much easier.

Red dot is a must no matter what.  Mama Raptor needs reading glasses (and I think Papa Raptor does too now, finally) and one of the other problems that happened during that one range trip was Mama Raptor really couldn't make out the iron sights on the pistol she was shooting.  I'm going to recommend she get either a HoloSun of some sort, a Vortex Crossfire, or a SIG ROMEO series.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Plebian on June 12, 2020, 10:10:18 pm
Another vote for the Ruger PCC from me. I have liked everyone of them I have shot.

The CMMG radial blowback versions are also super nice.

The CZ scorpion I have only shot the first model. And the safety is super uncomfortable to me, but they still shot fine. Someone without gorilla sized hands would likely have less issues.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 12, 2020, 11:13:46 pm
Depending on where you buy it,  maybe the shop would be willing to install the Glock mag adapter with the purchase.    Most of the FFLs I know would be happy to do so if someone was already buying the gun from them.  It's a job that only takes a couple of minutes.      Or you could just order a bunch of SR9 magazines and mail them to her.  They are a bit more expensive than Glock magazines, but you should still be able to find them for $20-30.

Another one you didn't consider is the Beretta CX4 Storm.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 12, 2020, 11:37:07 pm
In fairness to the Ruger SR series magazines mine have all been high quality and run with boring reliability in my SR9.  I can live with the price if the product works as advertised. 

I noticed the safety on the CZ was a little wonky but not too bad for me.  The gun ran flawlessly on range day and has always done so according to the owner.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: GaBoy45 on June 13, 2020, 08:20:50 am
The ones I have experience with are the CMMG, Sig MPX, Kel-Tec Sub2000, and the CZ Skorpion. Have not shot the Ruger as of yet but a buddy owns one and speaks highly of it, except the weight. Now, the carbines I’ve shot that use Glock mags, have been a little, wonky, to say the least. The Colt SMG magazines are dead nuts reliable in the PCC stuff. I own an SBR’d MPX and it has been very good so far. The full length carbines are lighter than the Ruger and operate like an AR-15 so there is that. The CZ is up there as well. Safety isn’t the most comfortable but it works. I actually like the CMMG stuff and would not mind a Banshee, but in 5.7 for me. I would actually say the MPX. If your uncle and you have AR’s, y’all will be more familiar with the system and can help her even on the phone. The mags are a little expensive but work really well. Now one you may consider is the KA9 or PSA AKV9, I think. The PSA version uses CZ Magazines and easy operation. And she did state she wanted an AK


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 13, 2020, 09:55:33 am
There is always the new HK MP5 if you want to spend a lot of money. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 18, 2020, 01:12:54 pm
Well, it's definitely a go, though again we're still a ways off I think (Papa Raptor knows deep down that it's something he really should do given how crazy things are getting, he just needs to talk himself into it).

Anyways, I recommended the PC Carbine, Scorpion, and CMMG MkG as good starting points.  Mama Raptor, to my surprise (though I really shouldn't have been) is already doing her homework on training, local ranges, good local FFLs, etc.  She's serious about this.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 19, 2020, 12:39:20 am
Good to hear.  Thanks for the update.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 20, 2020, 11:24:40 am
This may be relevant:


https://youtu.be/vjYEUCuDp4E
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 20, 2020, 12:59:12 pm
This may be relevant:


https://youtu.be/vjYEUCuDp4E

Actually watched that this morning.

I REALLY want to recommend the PTR 9R carbine, and honestly that'd be my first choice if it were up to me, but there's no way I'd be able to sell Papa Raptor on a) a $1700 MSRP rifle (I think the Resolute is pushing it as it is, honestly) and b) a rifle with very limited and expensive aftermarket support - same reason why I wouldn't recommend the KR-9.

All that said,  I made it clear to Mama Raptor that my three initial suggestions were just that - suggestions - and that she and Papa Raptor shouldn't limit themselves to only considering those three.  Unless they're seriously considering a really poor choice, I'll let them do their own thing.

All that said, now Mama Raptor's having serious second thoughts about a long gun and wants to look at pistol because they're "too big" and handguns are cheaper.  Again, up to her and Papa Raptor (though TBH I think Papa Raptor's disinterested enough that he'll just go with whatever Mama Raptor wants), but I do think a PCC would be a better fit, especially since I don't see them going to the range to practice frequently.  Or at all, if I'm honest.   :(
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 20, 2020, 02:12:25 pm
Well, for lots of folks anything that costs $1000.00 is a major purchase and will be accompanied by varying amounts of rethinking and general dithering.  Regardless of the need for such a purchase they will inevitably think about what else they need that the money could buy and then look toward alternatives.  Natural enough for all of us who have operated for any length of time in the real world. 

Once you arrive at the conclusion you need a firearm for self protection the fun really begins.  I have frequently handed out copies of Massad Ayoob's marvelous little book titled, "In The Gravest Extreme".   It is a short read - usually only a day or an evening.  Most then re-read it once they get the ideas in the front of their consciousness.  It is written in plain English, the concepts are simple and the language is non-technical.  It is still the best resource I have found to help folks get their minds around an idea they really don't want to think about.  It also helps think about what sort of weapon(s) to select and why.  Before the widespread availability of CCW classes it was considered the landmark reference in the field and I still think it ranks up there. 

If you want to see and hear Mr. Ayoob and his philosophy and guidance there are numerous articles and videos available for free viewing on line so maybe that would prove helpful to you.  Don't be surprised if MR and PR decide a good double action revolver is the best gun at first for numerous reasons.  They lack the "tacticool" edge that many seek today but they are reassuringly reliable, easy to operate and maintain, fairly inexpensive if you can find a good used one and just as effective as they ever were when the payload is delivered.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 20, 2020, 03:06:28 pm
Fair point on the cost (and I agree wholeheartedly), but Papa Raptor's frugality sometimes reaches the point where even Ebeneezer Scrooge would go "Dude, seriously?!"  Though to be fair, Mama Raptor balked hard when I recommended a $2k budget, but relaxed when I explained that that's for everything (safe, ammo, sights, etc.) rather than just the gun.

I'm going to try to steer them away from a DA revolver (though the only one I'd flat-out object to would be a J-Frame or equal size) if that comes up in the discussion for a few reasons: Mama Raptor has tiny hands and her grip strength is weak enough that I question whether or not she'd be able to reliably pull a heavy DA trigger. Papa Raptor wouldn't have that problem, but unless they decide to buy His & Hers (in which case I'll start frantically checking on the condition of the Seventh Seal), I want them to get something that they can both use effectively.  And since Mama Raptor needs glasses for close-up vision and I think Papa Raptor does too now, I want them to have something that they can easily mount an optical sight to with a minimum of modification or accessorizing.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 20, 2020, 06:02:06 pm
Ok.  Let us know if we can render aid - or comfort.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 20, 2020, 06:34:17 pm
Ok.  Let us know if we can render aid - or comfort.   :cool

Will do. I suspect that I may need a drink or two (or three, or a dozen) by the time this all said and done.  ::)  The fact that I'm doing this over the phone and through emails since we now live +/- 1000 miles apart just makes it that much more complicated.  Depending on my employment situation, I may end up flying down there and walking them through the final stages of the decision-making process in person.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 20, 2020, 08:22:29 pm
A good used GP100 would be good if they go for a revolver.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 27, 2020, 01:07:55 pm
As luck/fate would have it, Forgotten Weapons dropped this video this morning.  Already forwarded it to Mama Raptor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSOUmHito4M
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 27, 2020, 03:47:54 pm
Well, other than the penchant for trying to faithfully recreate a time appropriate scenario I see no real reason to keep your 1911 in an old style military flap holster. They are a relic from the early days of the 1911's development and seldom seen today.  Even a WWII "tanker" rig would have been better.  Much better holsters for the 1911 are available and the best of those would arguably have shaved seconds off his times with the pistol. 

The M1 carbine performed about like I would expect in that scenario.  When hits have to be quick and effective and the range increases beyond conversational distances carbines make a lot of sense to me.   I personally opt for the shotgun in that middle ground between rifles and handguns but people of smaller stature and reduced strength might find the M1 carbine a better solution.   As we have already discussed, there are lots of choices available but the Ruger Mini 14 has been around for years and is available in various calibers that are easily up to the task of home defense.   Might be something to consider if you're not getting a good feeling for the newly manufactured versions of the M1 carbine. 

Either rifle is going to be smaller and easier to handle than most AR pattern rifles and even some of the carbines we've discussed.   Mrs. c and I got to fire a friend's Mini 14 on a group shoot range day and both came away impressed with how easily it handled and the intuitive nature of the rifle compared to the AR pattern rifles.   Maybe we're just old and set in our ways but that those factors are important if you're not going to be running a thousand rounds a year through it every year during rifle practice.  YMMV but I'm just trying to get an accurate read on MR and PR and the prospect of being armed as a necessity of modern life.   :hmm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 27, 2020, 05:53:26 pm
Agreed with you on the flap holster.  I shared the video mostly to demonstrate to Mama Raptor that a long gun is a more stable and accurate platform compared to a handgun (I was trying to explain it over the phone, but I don't think it was clicking with her for some reason).

A shotgun probably would not be a good choice for Mama Raptor: she's 5'4" and maybe 105 lbs soaking wet, and probably would not like something that kicks as hard as a shotgun (though I could be wrong: she's surprised me before).  Papa Raptor, OTOH, is 6'2" and probably in the neighborhood of  160-ish lbs bone dry.  He's fired guns before, but not since he was a kid, and he did NOT enjoy it.  IIRC, he specifically mentioned the "kick" as being one reason why he didn't like it, though he couldn't tell me for certain what kind of gun it was (I think it was a long gun of some sort, but no idea if it was a rifle or shotgun).  He might do well with a semiautomatic shotgun of some sort.

I'll float the AR and Mini-14 platforms if they start looking that way, and I agree they'd be better than a PCC of any sort for home defense.  But as I mentioned, Mama Raptor doesn't do well with lots of muzzle blast, and while there are plenty of indoor ranges near them, I'm not sure they have ready access to an outdoor range.

I just want to help them find something that's effective for home defense and that they can both use comfortably.  All that said, I'm just thrilled that Mama and Papa have finally decided to get a gun, period.  I'll be happy with pretty much anything they ultimately decide to go with.

Sadly, everything just got put on hold for at least a week: Mama Raptor took a nasty spill off an electric bicycle earlier today.  She's fine, no broken bones or anything like that AFAIK, but she banged up and scraped up her elbow pretty good.  She wants to hold off on any sort of range trip or training until that heals.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 27, 2020, 09:00:36 pm
I did recommend to Mama Raptor that she find an instructor and at least get on their calendar sooner rather than later, since from everything I've seen online, training slots across the country are booked out for the next few weeks at minimum.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 27, 2020, 10:50:21 pm
Sorry to hear about MR's mishap and hope she recovers completely in record time.  I agree with some classroom time with an instructor prior to any live fire drills or practice.  Besides essential information on the legal aspects of shooting in self defense the instructor may have some insight you and I have missed.  You never know when and/or how something clicks into place for people and they begin to " get it " but more training and education at this point is probably a good thing. 

I wasn't actually recommending the shotgun - just pointing out there's more than one tool for most jobs.  They have the advantage of considerable versatility in terms of ammunition selection and pack serious punch in the terminal ballistics department but the price for that is paid in the recoil. 

A Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30 is not a bad choice as an alternative to a PCC.  The Mini 14 in .223/5.56 is easy to shoot and ammo is plentiful and fairly cheap but the muzzle blast inside a structure is horrendous.  The Mini 30 in either 7.62x39 or .300 AAC Blackout is also pretty easy to control and in the case of the 7.62x39 ammo is also easy to find and fairly inexpensive. Not so much with the .300 AAC Blackout but if you go with the subsonic ammo in that caliber the muzzle blast is somewhat reduced.  Neither caliber is punishing in the recoil department but both are more than the .223/5.56 round.  Muzzle blast and concussion inside a structure is going to be the primary disadvantage to these. 

That is going to be a problem with any long gun and many of the higher intensity pistol cartridges as well.  Just like getting blinded by a flashlight at night and losing your night vision for a half hour - the concussion and muzzle blast from some weapons inside a structure is enough to disorient you and also deafen you temporarily.  That is the whole purpose behind the "flash-bang" concussion grenades used by the police and military when they know they're going in hot.   The only way to find out how MR and PR are going to be able to deal with that is actual range time with actual guns and live ammunition.

I don't envy you this assignment.  I went through it with my mother many years ago when she was living alone driving back and forth to work five or six days a week - also alone.   Threat assessment and tactical awareness are hard things to teach people who grew up in a time and place where people let their kids go play in the neighborhood all day and told them to be home by dinner and who thought nothing of leaving the doors unlocked all day.   All safe in the knowledge that neighbors looked out for one another and the cops on the beat were both numerous and well equipped.   Like Yogi Berra once said,  "The future ain't what it used to be.".    :shrug
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Plebian on June 27, 2020, 11:48:23 pm
That is going to be a problem with any long gun and many of the higher intensity pistol cartridges as well.  Just like getting blinded by a flashlight at night and losing your night vision for a half hour - the concussion and muzzle blast from some weapons inside a structure is enough to disorient you and also deafen you temporarily.  That is the whole purpose behind the "flash-bang" concussion grenades used by the police and military when they know they're going in hot.   The only way to find out how MR and PR are going to be able to deal with that is actual range time with actual guns and live ammunition.

I will second the need to experience the blast and concussion to really understand. The first time I ripped off my CETME in a training house really, really made me reconsider using a 308 rifle in a structure. A short barreled AR is not much more pleasant either. Any 9mm carbine is significantly less jarring to be around in a structure.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 28, 2020, 12:43:51 am
Agreed but literally any firearm discharged indoors without hearing protection is disorienting and painfully loud.   :shocked

A shop I used to frequent years ago had a nicely configured test range in the basement.  A single lane affair used by both the on site gunsmith(s) and customers who wished to test fire used guns prior to purchase.  It had state of the art ( for the 1980's - 90's ) equipment including ventilation and sound deadening as well as an engineered backstop.  When it was in use, not only could you plainly hear it upstairs, the shots were also distinguishable from the background noise on the sidewalk in front of the building on a city street.  Including suppressors in the NFA was and is just plain stupid.   :facepalm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 28, 2020, 08:44:16 am
A shop I used to frequent years ago had a nicely configured test range in the basement.  A single lane affair used by both the on site gunsmith(s) and customers who wished to test fire used guns prior to purchase.  It had state of the art ( for the 1980's - 90's ) equipment including ventilation and sound deadening as well as an engineered backstop.  When it was in use, not only could you plainly hear it upstairs, the shots were also distinguishable from the background noise on the sidewalk in front of the building on a city street.  Including suppressors in the NFA was and is just plain stupid.   :facepalm

There's a shop not far from where we used to live (south of Pittsburgh) that had a range in their basement.  Decent facility (not the nicest, but far from the worst I've ever been to).  Same deal: you could hear the shots from up on the shop floor, and if you stood above where the firing line was, you could sometimes feel the floor shake from the concussion if somebody touched off a big bore or a .223.  Didn't often frequent that place (the range was one reason, stupid-high prices and an indifferent staff being the main one).

It's awfully telling that even in countries with ludicrously strict firearms regulations (looking at you, UK!) suppressors are pretty much considered a mandatory shooting accessory.  If I had my way, I'd have Mama & Papa Raptor rolling with suppressed .300BLKs. Full-auto, of course.  Stupid NFA.

And good news: spoke to Mama Raptor this morning, and she's feeling "a little stiff and a lot sore," but other than that she's OK.  Thank God: she has osteoporosis, so things could have been much worse, as in "broken hip and shattered elbow" worse.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 28, 2020, 04:46:52 pm
Yup.  This getting old thing isn't for sissies.  Ask me how I know.   :cool   Glad she's feeling better and that there was no lasting harm done. 

Regarding sound and particularly high decibel levels, I've been around some pretty loud stuff not even counting firearms. 

Back in the day some of the farm equipment we used was really noisy and when I was a kid they still allowed military jets to go supersonic over populated areas at lower elevations.  Those sonic booms rattled the windows sometimes.  Later on when I lived near a military gunnery range you could hear and sometimes see the muzzle flashes of heavy artillery pieces and the concussion from those could be heard for miles.  Where I live now is a few miles from a motor sports park and they have a man made lake there where they have a big drag boat event a couple of times a year.  When they drop the hammer on those things the roar of the engines is incredible.  I am roughly four and some change miles away as the crow flies and even over all the rest of the urban noise its loud enough to interrupt a conversation held outdoors.  :shocked

None of that stuff has the impact of being inside a house without hearing protection when a rifle is fired.  The first time you experience that it makes you want to crawl under something and hide. 

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 28, 2020, 05:34:41 pm
Yup.  This getting old thing isn't for sissies.  Ask me how I know.   :cool

Tell me about it.  I had Lyme Disease when I was a little kid, now I sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies when I move.  I used to joke that I'll probably need a walker by the time I'm 40.... about a year ago it stopped being funny.

I think Papa Raptor will do better with the loud noises once Mama Raptor finally drags him to the range.  He's an amateur handyman and woodworker (in the sense that he didn't do it for a living, not that he is unskilled).  He's owned and used a large variety of power tools -- most of them quite loud -- for as long as I can remember.  Seriously, walking into Lowes or Home Depot with him is like walking into a well-stocked gun shop with me.  Like a kid in a candy store... but I digress.  He picked up a nail gun a few years back -- I think it's powered by compressed air but can't remember -- that has a report that's comparable in volume and intensity (to my untrained ear, at least) to a .22 LR rifle.  Definitely high enough dB level that you need to wear ear protection if you're in the same room.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on June 28, 2020, 05:43:18 pm
Hopefully they can find a good outdoor range.   Indoor ranges do tend to get loud, even with doubled up hearing protection.  For someone that is already bothered by noise and recoil,  it's not the best environment.   

Even if their particular gun isn't an issue,  if there are half a dozen other guys there blasting away with ARs or .44 Magnums, it's going to give them a bad experience.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 28, 2020, 06:02:12 pm
Hopefully they can find a good outdoor range.   Indoor ranges do tend to get loud, even with doubled up hearing protection.  For someone that is already bothered by noise and recoil,  it's not the best environment.   

Even if their particular gun isn't an issue,  if there are half a dozen other guys there blasting away with ARs or .44 Magnums, it's going to give them a bad experience.   

I've looked, but haven't been able to find any outdoor ranges near them.  Hopefully the locals (they've asked friends for recommendations) know better than I do.

That's what turned Mama Raptors first and so far only range trip into an utter disaster: it was an indoor range, it was extremely crowded (I'd picked a date and time when it was usually deserted, just my luck), and the guy on the lane next to us was shooting a compensated 10mm pistol.  I honestly can't blame Mama Raptor for calling it quits after five minutes and not wanting to ever do it again: like I said, that compensated 10mm was extremely unpleasant to be next to on the range.  Every time that thing touched off, it was like getting one-two sucker punched in the teeth and the gut by Bruce Lee.  Single most unpleasant range experience I've ever had.  And that includes the time I had a guy on one side of me shooting a .44 Mag and the guy on the other side of me shooting 12-gauge slugs, and the time somebody mag-dumped a full-auto, 10.5" .223 AR-15 without warning two or three lanes over.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 28, 2020, 07:02:54 pm
A CCW trainer might be of help finding a suitable place - assuming you find one you trust.   Sometimes local ranges make contractual arrangements with them - or at least they did before the sales of guns and ammunition increased by 80% this year.    :hmm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 28, 2020, 11:31:09 pm
A CCW trainer might be of help finding a suitable place - assuming you find one you trust.   Sometimes local ranges make contractual arrangements with them - or at least they did before the sales of guns and ammunition increased by 80% this year.    :hmm

Mama Raptor's friends have made recommendations.  One fringe benefit of my parents moving into a firmly-majority-conservative area (FINALLY! #hallelujah!) is that almost all of their neighbors (from what I understand) own guns, and several of Mama Raptor's lady friends have invited her to go shooting with them in the past.  And I did tell Mama Raptor to pick an instructor and get on their calendar ASAP since odds are pretty good that all the local instructors are booked for the next several weeks at minimum.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 29, 2020, 01:22:01 am
Sounds like things are on the right track.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on June 29, 2020, 11:23:17 am
Out of curiosity, why are you limiting to 9mm?

There are plenty PCCs in other effective calibers, that may be more appealing to Mama Raptor... certainly less military looking.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on June 29, 2020, 11:37:18 am
Just catching up on my reading.

Responding to a few posts back, I'm taking my AR in tomorrow and consigning it.  I sold an early 80s Mini-14 to finance the AR several years ago, and have basically regretted it ever since.  I just don't like the way it works.  The bolt, the safety, the bolt hold open - all strangely placed and different from anything else I've ever used.

And I''m hoping to replace it with a current production Mini-14, whenever my LGS can find one once the AR sells.  I like the caliber, just not the AR platform.

In the meantime, I have a .30 Carbine that I'm quite comfortable with, should a need arise. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 29, 2020, 11:55:38 am
Out of curiosity, why are you limiting to 9mm?

There are plenty PCCs in other effective calibers, that may be more appealing to Mama Raptor... certainly less military looking.

Combination of price point, comparatively lower recoil & muzzle blast, relative availability, and relative effectiveness.  And if they ever decide to get CCW permits, then possible ammo compatibility with their future pistol(s).

The fact that they're "military looking" hasn't been an objection at all.  Far from it, when the rioting first stared, she said "Remember how I could never understand why you thought you needed an AR-15 and all those high-capacity clips?  I get it now."  The fact that two of her nieces live in cities where riots occurred -- in one case they rioted on her block,  in another they attacked and torched the structure directly across the street from her apartment building (both are fine, thank God, and neither lost any property or possessions to the violence) -- really drove the point home.  One niece is in Kansas City, and knowing that side of the family, I suspect she'll be packing heat sooner rather than later.  The other lives in NYC, so she's screwed.

On the off-chance that "military looking" does become an issue, right about the time I bought my first pistol, Mama Raptor said that she wanted (and I quote) "an Annie Oakley gun."  So I'm keeping a lever-action .357 in my metaphorical back pocket as an alternative.

That said, I did make it clear to Mama and Papa Raptor that these are just suggestions and if they ultimately decide to go with something else, that's cool (unless it's something god-awful or stupid like a Judge or a .22). 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 29, 2020, 12:00:26 pm
Just catching up on my reading.

Responding to a few posts back, I'm taking my AR in tomorrow and consigning it.  I sold an early 80s Mini-14 to finance the AR several years ago, and have basically regretted it ever since.  I just don't like the way it works.  The bolt, the safety, the bolt hold open - all strangely placed and different from anything else I've ever used.

And I''m hoping to replace it with a current production Mini-14, whenever my LGS can find one once the AR sells.  I like the caliber, just not the AR platform.

In the meantime, I have a .30 Carbine that I'm quite comfortable with, should a need arise. 

Cool.  I personally like the AR platform, but definitely roll with whatever you're more comfortable & familiar with.

Though if you don't pick up one of these (https://www.samson-mfg.com/a-tm-folding-stock-for-the-ruger-mini-14.html) for it -- and a modded GMC Venture van --  I will be extremely disappointed.  :P ;) :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on June 29, 2020, 08:42:07 pm
Hmm.  I'll take that under advisement.  Gotta get the Mini first.

I remember seeing the A-Team van at Universal Studios theme park back in about 2000.   :thumbup1

It was just parked, out in the weather.  Near the Magnum PI Ferrari, IIRC.  They were not aging well.   :banghead


A friend showed me a .30 Carbine he had recently acquired about a year ago.  It had an original folding stock.  And a giggle switch slot.  No giggle switch, just the slot.  Apparently the gun originally left the factory as a paratrooper M2 during WWII.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on June 30, 2020, 10:02:59 am
Not gonna lie, I'm seriously considering tracking down a used stainless Mini-14 solely so I can get one of those stocks and pretend I'm Faceman (not old enough to pass for Hannibal, not crazy enough for Murdock, and Mr. T would probably hunt me down and whoop my ass if I tried to pass myself off as him).

Anyways, stumbled across the new SIG M400 TREAD COIL (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sigm400-tread-coil.html (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sigm400-tread-coil.html)) yesterday.  Even though I haven't mentioned AR-15s at all to Mama and Papa Raptor, I passed it along since, given all the upgrades and accessories it comes with, it's crazy-good value for the money.  Spoke with Mama Raptor later, and while she hadn't looked at it yet, she was almost certain that Papa Raptor will never agree to an AR.

 :facepalm

Oy.  That probably means that the CMMG is out, and possibly the Scorpion too.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on June 30, 2020, 09:39:59 pm

On the off-chance that "military looking" does become an issue, right about the time I bought my first pistol, Mama Raptor said that she wanted (and I quote) "an Annie Oakley gun."  So I'm keeping a lever-action .357 in my metaphorical back pocket as an alternative.


Glad to hear your family's safe.

Funny you should mention that... it's exactly what I was going to suggest.  The recoil on a .357 carbine should be pretty manageable, even for a novice shooter.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on June 30, 2020, 10:16:17 pm
They are handy guns and easy to shoot but the downside is they are slow and hard to load or reload in comparison to more modern designs.  People with diminished hand strength can find the loading gate hard to manage on unmodified guns.  Marlins, in particular, can be fussy about feeding .38 specials reliably.  Most designs also preclude mounting any sort of modern weapon light.   :hmm

If I was going to give one of those to a novice to use as a home defense gun I would make sure I had a gunsmith go over it with a critical eye beforehand.  Some gunsmiths specialize in the lever guns used for the cowboy action shooting crowd and if you've not handled one that has been worked over by one of these guys they are a slick handling revelation.   

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 01, 2020, 10:55:59 am
They are handy guns and easy to shoot but the downside is they are slow and hard to load or reload in comparison to more modern designs.  People with diminished hand strength can find the loading gate hard to manage on unmodified guns.

Yep.  Which is why I'm recommending the semiautos first and keeping the lever guns in reserve.

And potentially bad news: Mama Raptor's elbow is still bothering her, to the point where she's concerned that it's broken again (long story), but she doesn't have a doctor anymore (longer story; stupid insurance) and doesn't want to go to an ER and sit for hours with a bunch of potential COVID-positive folks.  Given that she's an asthmatic, I don't blame her.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 01, 2020, 11:11:52 pm
Ouch.  Minor fractures in smaller bones are troublesome no matter one's age but healing takes longer as we get older.  Ask me how I know . . .  :cool

My doctor retired and I haven't been able to find a decent one since.  That is the second time that exact scenario has played out in the last ten years.   :facepalm

I'm hoping she's as physically tough as her mindset and that the elbow is quickly healed. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on July 01, 2020, 11:36:31 pm
An M1 Carbine might work too.  Short and handy and reasonably powerful out to a couple hundred yards.   The downside is they are a little on the pricey side compared to other options.  Even one of those reproduction ones will cost more than all your other choices.    Also, you will get slightly more muzzle blast and no pistol compatibility aside from obscure guns like the .30 carbine AMT Automag.

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on July 02, 2020, 11:33:19 am
I would offer up the Beretta CX4 Storm, but the cocking mechanism and trigger are *REALLY* stiff* out of the box, and really need to be replaced with the Papa Sierra group before it can be used, and even then it may be too stiff for her, if she's having elbow issues.


*One of the times I handled one, I tried to hold the carbine at hand's length and pull back the cocking mechanism. Could NOT do it; I *had* to have it up to my shoulder, and push the cocker back with my left hand.  While I will freely admit I am not Samson, it was pretty stiff.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 02, 2020, 12:18:00 pm
I handled and fired a CX4 a few years ago, that belonged to former WTA member (I think; haven't seen him around at all lately) Kaso.  Honestly, I wasn't impressed: the cocking mechanism was very stiff and the trigger very heavy (as you mentioned), the overall ergonomics felt kind of funky, and the length of pull was too long even for me (though I know that can be adjusted).

Though to be honest, the main reason I didn't put it on the list is that I could have sworn it was out of production.  Checked Beretta's website just now and it turns out I was mistaken.

Good news, though:  spoke with Mama Raptor this morning, and the pain in the elbow appears to have subsided significantly.  And unlike last time she broke it, there's no apparent swelling and she has full range of motion.  She's thinking that it's just a really bad bruise, possibly a bruised bone, and that yesterday was just a bad day. It's her hip and her bum that are bothering her today: she also landed on her rear pretty hard when she fell.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: GaBoy45 on July 02, 2020, 01:29:13 pm
That’s good to hear. Glad she is okay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 03, 2020, 12:21:27 am
Agreed.  Tell her we're all rooting for her.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 04, 2020, 02:45:26 pm
Went to the range today (and shot an honest-to-Browning Tommy Gun because AMERICA!), and the store was all but picked clean of semiautomatic long guns.  Even the pistol selection was far more depleted than usual.  Chatted briefly with one of the clerks, and their supply channels are all back-ordered for weeks, at minimum.

So I let Mama know that a semi-auto PCC probably wasn't a realistic choice and sent her a short list of lever-action rifles in .357 Mag to consider instead.  I spoke to her briefly on the phone first to let her know the list was coming, and she says it's probably for the best since Papa Raptor would probably be more open to a "cowboy gun" than any of my earlier suggestions.

Unfortunately, Mama Raptor is no longer convinced that the arm isn't broken or at least badly sprained: The pain isn't getting worse, but it hasn't noticeably decreased either, and she says that there appears to be a "divot' in her wrist (whatever that means).  So she's definitely going to get it checked out at some point soon.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 04, 2020, 05:50:27 pm
Well, poop.  Sorry for her discomfort and inconvenience.  We're still hoping for a miraculous recovery.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 04, 2020, 09:30:35 pm
Well, poop.  Sorry for her discomfort and inconvenience.  We're still hoping for a miraculous recovery.   :thumbup1

Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Mikee5star on July 04, 2020, 09:59:56 pm
I really like the Rossi 92 I bought for the wife.  I did have it sent to a Crusader Weaponry and "slicked up".  Only issue we have had with it is the bead won't stay in the front site blade.  Some people have issues with the stock buckhorn rear sites.  Solid rifle at a reasonable price even though it benefit from a bit of work. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 04, 2020, 10:27:04 pm
Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).

I've handled and shot a couple of the Henry rifles - both rim fires - and they appear to be well made and reliable.  No experience with the center fire guns but my experience with the rim fire rifles is encouraging.

The Rossi '92's are OK but they could stand some slicking up and that goofy safety they have on top of the bolt is weak IMO.  They're good basic rifles but a little rough - many are in operation in the cowboy action world and have been extensively worked over.  They are frequently selected over a modern American rifle because that safety is easy to remove and the side(s) of the receiver aren't marred by a crossbolt design. 

My own rifles are Winchesters and Marlins.  Not necessarily better for your application - just different.  Marlins are easier to take down and clean but run a bit heavier and aren't as lively in the hand as a Winchester IMO.  They do seem to work slicker over time and some prefer the stock shape on the Marlin over the straighter, plain vanilla Winchesters.  For a modern rifle in a self defense scenario I would prefer no safety except for the half cock notch on the hammer but for MR & PR I think the crossbolt design makes sense given their novice gun handling skills.   :hmm

Sometimes simple is good.  If the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" is appealing it may be easier to learn and get practiced with than something more complex and intimidating.  I have hunted and fished and camped all over Arizona and much of the southwest for years armed with a lever action rifle and usually a double action revolver as back-up.  At no time have I felt poorly armed.  For many years my "in the tent, in the sleeping bag" gun(s) have been a side by side 12 gauge hammerless "coach gun" with the barrels shortened to just over minimum legal length loaded with heavy buck shot and a S&W Model of 1989 625 running .45 Auto Rims and stout loads of hard cast lead.   I don't always have unauthorized guests snuffling around the camp site but when I do those are comforting things to have in hand.   :cool   

They wouldn't be my first choice if I knew I was going to be involved in a running gun battle or a home invasion scenario with a half dozen attackers but I am well practiced with them and prepared to give a good account of myself where I decide to make contact.  Just my $.02 worth. :coffee
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 05, 2020, 12:34:20 pm
They wouldn't be my first choice if I knew I was going to be involved in a running gun battle or a home invasion scenario with a half dozen attackers but I am well practiced with them and prepared to give a good account of myself where I decide to make contact.  Just my $.02 worth. :coffee

Oh I absolutely agree, and have made clear that the semi-auto PCC is the better platform for home defense -- with the Scorpion remaining my #1 recommendation -- and that I'm only suggesting lever-actions since all things semi-auto have turned into unobtainium.  But it's better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit, and if Mama & Papa Raptor are more open to buying a lever gun vs. a semi-auto, that's cool.  At least they'll have something.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 05, 2020, 01:07:03 pm
Agreed.  Comfort counts for a lot in stressful times and stressful situations and, as you say, whatever they decide on is better than what they have now.   :thumbup1

Another choice that may be worthy of consideration is a youth sized 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun.  Something like Mossberg's SA 20 Youth Bantam is small enough and light enough to be used indoors and the recoil is roughly half that of one of the bigger 12 gauge guns.  If you've not seen what a 20 can do on the receiving end - let's just say it shades everything we've discussed so far.   If time is really short and the first shot has to count, there is little else that says "FOAD" with as much emphasis as the shotgun.  And, like the side gate loaded lever actions they can have the magazine topped up without removing the gun from the shoulder if necessary.    :hmm   

I'm not really trying to talk MR and PR into three gun competition territory here but those reloading drills can be taught and practiced regularly with dummy ammunition until proficiency is achieved.  It will also pay dividends when range day comes in the form of reduced times for reloading and subsequent target acquisition. 

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 05, 2020, 01:30:03 pm
I wish I'd known that the SA-20 was still being imported (could've sworn it had been discontinued  :facepalm) and that the Youth Bantam model existed before I started making recommendations to The Parents Raptor.  The LOP is short enough that Mama Raptor probably wouldn't have any problems, and a load of #2 or #3 buck (even a 2.75" 'low recoil' load) would be orders of magnitude more effective than a 9mm or .357 hollowpoint at carbine velocities.

That said, I doubt Mama Raptor would go from it.  She's not at all comfortable with the idea of a gun that kicks hard, and in her mind shotgun = kicks really hard.  That's partly my fault, I'm afraid, some years back she expressed casual interest in wanting to at least shoot a shotgun (I believe she said something to the effect of, "when we go to the range, I want to try a shotgun.  That sounds like fun) and I dissuaded her away from it by telling her that shotguns "thump really hard."  In my defense, the range were we would've gone rented shotguns, but only 12-gauges and you could only use buckshot or slugs (indoor range). They had a semiauto Remington, but even that would've been too much for her on her first time.

Side note: am I a horrible person for wanting to try to convince Mama Raptor that if they get a lever gun, then they'll be required by law and tradition to also get a matching six-shooter to go with it?  ;)
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 05, 2020, 03:46:19 pm
Not at all.  :cool    If you recall I was the one who ventured a suggestion along those lines previously.   :whistle   An awful lot of people learned to shoot with a wheel gun - whether single action or double action.  Good shooting habits from those early experiences are an important stepping stone when the shooter decides to upgrade to a pistol.   

I think my favorite home defense load for buckshot in the 20 gauge is the 2 3/4" shell with one of the smaller sizes of buck shot - #1, #2, #3, or even #4 if that is all that's available.  All will give adequate penetration in a self defense scenario. 

Even the buck shot rounds have considerably less recoil than the 12 gauge and when fired in a semi-auto the gas action soaks up some of that as well.  Still, they are going to kick more than a pistol caliber carbine or a lever action rifle in .38/.357 mag.  Maybe the rifle first and work up to the shotgun later?  :hmm 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 05, 2020, 07:47:27 pm
Yeah, I told her she was pretty much legally required to get an Old West Six-Shooter to go along with a Cowboy Rifle.  She didn't find the joke humorous.  Oh well.  :shrug

If The Parents Raptor ultimately decide that they don't hate shooting, get comfortable with it, and perhaps even maybe actually enjoy going to the range on a regular basis, I'll float the idea of upgrading/supplementing their arsenal with a 20-gauge at some point in the not-particularly-near future.

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 05, 2020, 11:20:35 pm
Well, for what its worth, none other than the folks at the illustrious "Gunsite Academy" offer a "Defensive Lever Gun and Single Action Revolver" class that runs 5 days and is apparently very comprehensive.  So, its not just us who think its a viable option for self defense.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 06, 2020, 12:08:03 pm
Mama Raptor went and got X-Rayed this morning, and hallelujah, no broken bones!

EDIT: Looks mainly like some bad bruising, possibly a very minor tear in her rotatory cuff (nowhere near bad enough to require surgery) or (more likely) the bursa sac in the shoulder collapsed due to the nature of the impact and will take some some time to re-fill.

She's on heavy restriction: no lifting, no pulling or pushing, can't put weight on it or carry any weight with it.  But still the best possible outcome, all things considered.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on July 06, 2020, 04:26:40 pm
Glad to hear.  Here's to a speedy recovery!
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: GaBoy45 on July 06, 2020, 07:38:01 pm
Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 06, 2020, 11:27:31 pm
Yes, glad to hear that MR's situation is not more serious.  Range of motion type of movement(s) helped my Dad some years back when trying to recuperate from a similar injury.  Has the doctor recommended any physical therapy for her?   :hmm

Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That load is a good one.  I fired some through my old Browning Auto 5 a while back and it ran like a champ.  I think Rio also loads a shell with #1 buck shot but I haven't seen any for a while.  I'd love to see a home defense specific model of that SA 20 Youth Bantam for the ladies and other smaller framed shooters.  If there is one on the Mossberg site I must have missed it.  I like my 930 SPX but its a big, heavy bastage and a little unwieldy in some spots inside the house. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 07, 2020, 10:53:19 am
Yes, glad to hear that MR's situation is not more serious.  Range of motion type of movement(s) helped my Dad some years back when trying to recuperate from a similar injury.  Has the doctor recommended any physical therapy for her?   :hmm

I believe so.  She saw/is seeing the same orthopedic specialist that worked with Papa Raptor when he did something to his shoulder last year that severely restricted his range off motion (we think it was a pinched nerve) he's something like 95%+ recovered, and I believe Mama Raptor said that he told her to perform a set of exercises to speed up her recuperation.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on July 07, 2020, 02:12:52 pm
Not meaning to digress from Raptor's thread, but this confuses me.  It implies (from the wording) that the chamber is loaded with the safety on, or that the chamber is empty with the safety off.  But it could randomly be either one.   :shrug 

If instead you meant "take the safety off and rack the slide", then I have to ask why have the safety in the on position on an empty chamber?  If it's empty, the safety in the on position is not needed.  Once a shell goes in the chamber, in the house, is no time to be screwing around with the safety, because there is apparently a credible threat that may need shooting in the very immediate future.

Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 07, 2020, 02:44:26 pm
IIRC, there are some single- and double-barrel shotguns that automatically re-engage the safety every time the action is opened.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on July 08, 2020, 08:37:10 pm
IIRC, there are some single- and double-barrel shotguns that automatically re-engage the safety every time the action is opened.

Ahh.  I assumed (and we all know what havoc that can entail) that he was referring to semi-autos for both shotguns.  A single- or double-barrel gun with chambers loaded and safety on for one of them and a semi-auto with an empty chamber and safety off for the other would fit the original parameters.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 14, 2020, 01:42:08 pm
Just a quick update:  Mama is well on the road to recovery.  And she let me know that "if it were just her, she'd have bought it already."  Which means that, as I suspected, Papa Raptor still needs to be convinced.

That's gonna take some work.  And probably more than one stiff drink.

I told Mama Raptor that she should just do what she did back when we finally got cable: get it and then tell Papa Raptor after it's too late for him to do anything about it (seriously, he only figured out we were getting cable when he came home from work for lunch and asked why we were cleaning the family room and Little Brother and I, quite innocently, let slip that the cable guy was coming to install our connection).
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 14, 2020, 10:46:40 pm
Well, some of us have only recently been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the twenty first century.  I'm not naming names but we know who we are .  .  .  wait .  .  .   :eh .  .  .   :cool

Glad MR is on the mend and feeling up to a challenge and with any luck PR will come around to the idea and be helpful.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 25, 2020, 04:55:41 pm
Another quick update: Mama Raptor is completely healed.  No pain, full strength and range of motion have returned.  So now I can start nagging her again!

Unfortunately, it sounds like Florida is back on tight COVID restrictions, so range trips are no-go.... though how long that lasts is up in the air seeing as how FL Dept of Health just got caught red-handed falsifying COVID test results: they were sending notifications to people who hadn't been tested that their results had come back positive and they were infected with COVID.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 25, 2020, 07:52:35 pm
Glad she's back to full strength and orneriness.   :cool    The old saying used to be: "Never attribute anything to malice that's adequately explained by stupidity." but the modern corollary to that adds " .  .  . or politics." to the original version.   :facepalm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 25, 2020, 07:58:45 pm
She's not ornery.... unless she hasn't had her morning coffee.

And it's not just that they hadn't been tested: these were people who'd gone to the new, free DeptHealth drive-in testing centers, filled out the paperwork for the test, gotten in line for the tests.... which were 2-3 hours long, sitting in their cars, in the blazing Florida sun, in the middle of July, so they decided, "nope, we'll go to the place where you pay and are in and out in fifteen minutes," told the people running the test that they were leaving, and driven away.  One person, sure, stupidity could explain that.  Literally dozens across the entire state?  No, that was pure, malicious politics.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 25, 2020, 08:09:23 pm
Just follow the money.  City of Phoenix is sitting on close to $300 million dollars in federal funds allocated to Covid 19 relief and so far they've spent less than a million of it on local testing and just over a million on local art projects to support the mayor's voting base.   :banghead
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 25, 2020, 09:24:20 pm
Pretty sure it's politics.  FL Gov's a libertarianesque Republican who's been fairly hands-off in his response to Covidpocalypse.  The Dems despise him, because the people love him and save for the Dem hotspots like Tampa and Miami, COVID infection rates were pretty low in the state.  Until DeptHealth started seriously cooking the numbers, of course.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 25, 2020, 10:17:04 pm
Yup.  There's lies, damned lies and then there's "statisitics".   :scrutiny
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 26, 2020, 09:46:11 pm
Anywho, based on the now-bare shelves at gun shops, I changed my recommendations to Mama Raptor a bit and suggested that she go for either a Marlin in .44 Magnum/.44 Special and order .44 Special ammo for it online, or a Ruger PC Carbine or CMMG Resolute in .40 S&W, since both .44 SPL and .40 S&W appear to be at least somewhat available, unlike 9mm and .357 Magnum.  I also said that given most manufacturers and distributors are currently backordered for 6-8 weeks minimum (based on what I've seen online) and the delays are getting longer by the day, they really needs to decide on what they want and get it ordered ASAP.

We'll see.  She's utterly convinced that Papa Raptor will NEVER go for a semiauto, so it's probably going to be a lever gun of some sort.  But we'll see.

EDIT:  I also remembered that lever guns are rather prevalent in .45 Long Colt, so I suggested that as well.  Alas, Marlin doesn't offer the 1894 Dark in that caliber.

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 27, 2020, 02:12:51 pm
Any of the lever guns should be fairly available compared to semi-auto rifles right now.  As you say, 9mm and .357 magnum are really hard to find most places but you can usually get .38 specials and out of a carbine length barrel they are nothing to turn your nose up at - especially at close range.  If your individual rifle feeds them well the .38 special may be subsonic even out of a carbine barrel so the muzzle report is less of an issue and with a 158 grain, lead semi-wadcutter the penetration is right in the ball park on gelatin block tests. 

The .44 mag/ .44 special option is a good one as is the .45 Colt .  Even an older Marlin or Winchester in one of the old time loads is a workable option if nothing else is available.  The .38/40 and the .44/40 are both up to the task of predator control as long as bears aren't frequently encountered.  These days the old lever gun cartridges are more popular due to the popularity of the cowboy action shooting crowd. 

Lever guns are pretty simple and fairly intuitive for most folks but they all have quirks that need to be known and addressed with familiarization drills and training.  Side gate loading is pretty fast but folks with reduced hand strength might benefit from a new gate spring with less resistance as it also needs to be depressed and held for quick unloading as well. 

The .40 S&W is a good cartridge.  I have no problem with it and never completely understood why it was abandoned so quickly by many in the law enforcement community.  I like the versatility of having a gun capable of using a second caliber (.357 Sig ) with nothing more than a barrel change and a box of the new ammo.   :hmm

I guess the two foremost proponents ( and teachers ) of using the weapons at hand to their maximum effectiveness are Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith.  Neither spends a lot of time berating the unavailability of proper tactical gear but get right to the crux of the matter - which is training you in threat recognition and effective response.  They discuss the pros and cons of various weapons but concentrate more on using them to their best advantage and adapting your tactics to that rather than requiring you to outfit yourself and your family like an infantry squad. 

Mr. Ayoob is the more polished speaker of the two and I've never heard him use a single off color word in print or on video - highly recommended. 

Mr. Smith is the more colorful of the two and is frequently NSFW but he has the ability to teach the seat of your pants as well as your brain and is unforgettable, both as a character and a teacher.  Highly recommended. 

Some of their stuff has been posted here previously and a brief foray into the search function here may save you some time but both men know their stuff and can teach it you if you have an open mind and basic comprehension and motor skills. 

If MR would like to see some of the same material from a female perspective, I highly recommend Kathy Jackson from the Cornered Cat blog. She is pretty gifted as well and some of her observations and techniques ( mental and physical ) are invaluable to female shooters.

https://www.corneredcat.com/



Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on July 27, 2020, 02:43:49 pm
Many thanks.

Mas, Clint, and Ms Jackson were already on my radar, and I've been following all three for years (read pretty much every article on Cornered Cat when I first discovered it).  Clint is my go-to resource, but since Mama and Papa Raptor (especially Mama) have the habit of immediately tuning someone out and disregarding everything they say - no matter how valid their points or argument may be - the instant that something that could even be remotely considered profanity exits their mouth, I'll be steering them towards Mas and Cornered Cat.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on July 27, 2020, 02:48:51 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 02, 2020, 02:43:20 pm
Update:  I'll be flying down to visit my folks in a few weeks, and Mama Raptor said she'd be more comfortable if I went to the shop with her (and maybe Papa Raptor if he ever comes around) and helped them make their selection and help walk them through the purchase process.  So hopefully we'll have made some serious progress by the end of the month.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 02, 2020, 03:54:47 pm
Excellent.  Good luck and a safe journey.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 02, 2020, 06:50:12 pm
So at Mama Raptor's request, I'm compiling all of my recommendations and advice into a single document (as opposed to the dozen-plus emails I've sent her, plus an unknown number of phone calls).  So far I have:


Anything else that you think I'm missing?
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 02, 2020, 11:41:08 pm
Its a good place to start and a synopsis from someone you trust can be worth a lot.  More will come into focus as you interact personally with her - both of them, really - on the subject of personal protection.  Once they get into the mindset that the gun is not the most important thing it will get easier. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 03, 2020, 09:39:48 am
Hopefully the local shops have something on the shelves to sell you.   You should look around and find ones in their area and maybe call and ask what they have in inventory before you go down there. 

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 03, 2020, 07:04:24 pm
Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense.  I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

Hopefully the local shops have something on the shelves to sell you.   You should look around and find ones in their area and maybe call and ask what they have in inventory before you go down there. 

There are quite a few gun shops in the area.  I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent.  Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon.  Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have).  I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available.  Ammo, on the other hand.....  :shrug  We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: LowKey on August 03, 2020, 11:30:48 pm
I'm in the Tampa Bay area and should be home this weekend.   I could donate a poverty pony lower to the cause if you wanted to build something for them if the LGS shelves don't have anything suitable.   
Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense.  I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

There are quite a few gun shops in the area.  I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent.  Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon.  Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have).  I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available.  Ammo, on the other hand.....  :shrug  We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 04, 2020, 09:46:14 am
I'm in the Tampa Bay area and should be home this weekend.   I could donate a poverty pony lower to the cause if you wanted to build something for them if the LGS shelves don't have anything suitable.   

Thank you for the offer, but I'll pass: I currently have a stripped Aero lower that I don't have any plans for, and it wouldn't be right to take your lower when I already have one just taking up space in my safe.

If Mama & Papa Raptor do decide that yes, they want an AR-15 (and if that happens, somebody really needs to check the Seventh Seal!) and I can't find anything on the shelves down in FL when I'm visiting, I'll use the Aero as the basis for a build.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Roper1911 on August 04, 2020, 10:49:08 am
Found my copy of Mas Ayoob's Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right To Self Defense.  I think I'll toss it in my suitcase and then conveniently "forget" to re-pack it before I come home.

There are quite a few gun shops in the area.  I've been trying to find reviews on them to try and determine which (if any) are decent.  Mama Raptor says she's going to ask her friends & neighbors who shoot where they shop, but I somehow doubt she has and I'm not banking on that happening any time soon.  Either I'll have her call after I get down there or else I'll call myself (or, more likely, we'll just end up walking in and seeing what they have).  I'm not going down for another few weeks, and whatever inventory they might have now will almost certainly have changed by then.

The good news is that, if the shops up here and the online retailers are anything to go by (I know, I know, but that's the only metric I have to go on), guns are slowly becoming more available.  Ammo, on the other hand.....  :shrug  We're probably going to have to see what calibers are available and then base their choice on that.

Worst comes to worst, .30-30 seems to still be available, so a Marlin 336 is a viable option...

.45, 10mm, .40s&W, ect all seem to be fairly accessible here.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 04, 2020, 01:33:33 pm
.45, 10mm, .40s&W, ect all seem to be fairly accessible here.

As of this past Friday evening, my preferred LGS/Range had ZERO 9mm or .380 - not even range ammo - and very limited quantities of .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, and .223/5.56.  They had plenty of .40 S&W (enough that I think it was the only pistol cartridge they weren't limiting sales on), as well as a good amount of .44 Mag and even .44 Spl.  10mm has always been a very niche cartridge up here, so they didn't have much of that, but I honestly can't tell if it was less than normal.  .308 and 7.62x39 was on the shelves, but nowhere near as much as normal.  They had a TON of 6.5 Creedmoor on hand.  Didn't notice any .300 BLK, but honestly I didn't think to look for it.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 04, 2020, 02:31:59 pm
I don't buy a ton of ammo locally.  Usually it's online.   I have been occasionally watching at Atwoods, the local farm and ranch supply store.  I don't usually buy there since their prices are a little high, but they do have some availability. They limit purchases to two boxes per customer.  Mostly it's the hunting stuff still around.  Lots of 6.5 Creedmoor and bird shot.   They have been sporadically getting .50 cal ammo cans full of 820 rounds of 62gr 5.56x45.  I bought one of those last week for $400.  For handgun ammo, they often have aluminum cased .40 S&W.  Some overpriced 10mm and .44 magnum as well.   9mm, .45, .38, and .357 are pretty rare though.   

I've already got a lot of ammo, but I don't anticipate things getting better any time soon.    Our country (the rest of the world as well) is headed straight into the s___ter.  We've been on the edge of disaster for years, and I think we might be past the point of no return.   Sure the pandemic is bad, but we've got complete economic collapse on the horizon and I think there is a very real chance we end up with a gang of communists in charge in a few months.  Not that the Republicans have done us any favors.  A growing number of them are every bit as evil.   

What bothers me the most is that corporate America is now fully on board with their bulls___.  Especially the tech companies, but I've seen it everywhere in every industry. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: RetroGrouch on August 05, 2020, 06:52:18 pm
All the LGS with ranges around here are completely devoid of common calibers like 9mm, 45ACP and 223.  Oddly, you can find all the oddball calibers like 380, 38 Super, 10mm, etc.  And revolver ammo.  One of my favorite LGS without a range has a whole side of the shop stacked with 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, the various 32 calibers, etc.


It looks like there hasn't been as much of a run on those and lever action rifles/carbines.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 05, 2020, 07:52:05 pm
All the LGS with ranges around here are completely devoid of common calibers like 9mm, 45ACP and 223.  Oddly, you can find all the oddball calibers like 380, 38 Super, 10mm, etc.  And revolver ammo.  One of my favorite LGS without a range has a whole side of the shop stacked with 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, the various 32 calibers, etc.


It looks like there hasn't been as much of a run on those and lever action rifles/carbines.

That's a relief, since that's probably what Mama Raptor's going to end up picking.  I talked with her.... yesterday? and offered to build them a basic AR-15 using my Aero lower.  She said thanks, but she doesn't want "anything complicated," she just wants "something simple."

 :shrug

Eh, whatever.   I think she'll go for it if we can't find anything else suitable while I'm down there.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 05, 2020, 10:24:15 pm
Keep us posted and remember - even slow progress is progress.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 06, 2020, 01:55:20 pm
Hopefully you can find something that will work.  I know the AR seems a little complicated,  but if millions of conscripts and army recruits around the world can manage them,  your parents should be fine.   
Good luck finding ammo no matter what you end up with. 

My parents aren't gun people either.  Fortunately they live in a small town about an hour from me, so they really don't have to worry about civil unrest.   If they ever do need one,  I could just lend them one from my ever growing collection.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on August 06, 2020, 03:26:39 pm
I'm going to be a bit contrary here.  I'm pretty sure I'm a bit older than Raptor's parents, but not by more than 10 years.  (I was born in the late 50s.) 

I just sold my one and only AR.  I originally sold a Mini-14 to finance the AR, because "ARs are so much better than Mini-14s".  Yeah - No, not for me.  Yes, it was more accurate than the Mini, and yes, I can "manage" the AR and how it functions, but not quickly. 

For M&P Raptor, if they need it they're probably going to need it RIGHT NOW!  And having to try to remember the various steps to bring an AR to ready status (because they probably won't keep it in condition 1) can be hard, especially under time pressure. 

Now maybe I'm overthinking it, because it would be harder for me than everything else I'm used to, whereas for them there is no "everything else" to compare it to.

Still, with the ammo shortages, I do agree that a levergun that you can actually find ammo for may very well be the best option.


<snip>  I know the AR seems a little complicated,  but if millions of conscripts and army recruits around the world can manage them,  your parents should be fine.   <snip>
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 06, 2020, 04:15:40 pm
Actually, you're probably about the same age as M&P Raptor.

And the AR, at this point, is in the "we can't find anything else suitable" category.  Though if we do wind up going with the AR, I'll be encouraging them to store it (actually, I'll be encouraging them to store whatever firearm they go with) in "cruiser-ready" status: magazine loaded, chamber empty, and possibly (if they do get an AR) with the bolt locked open.  So all they'll have to do is either rack the charging handle or hit the bolt release and they'll be ready to go.

And I've made this absolutely clear: whatever type of firearm they get, they must get professional training, and they must practice with it.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Roper1911 on August 07, 2020, 10:44:42 am
I'd suggest an SCR if they really didn't want an AR but really *need* an AR. but the SCR has some issues that make it unsuitable in my opinion, specifically the rat-tail buffer has to be very carefully aligned or the gun won't work at all.
as for the AR being "complicated" the rifle is field stripped by pushing 1 pin and pulling the bolt out. you don't need to GI clean the AR basically at all. I just GI'd one of mine after like- 6,000 rounds. you basically just need to oil it every 500 rounds, run foaming bore cleaner through it, then run a ripcord cleaner, then if you want to get fancy, use a bolt scraper. like every 5000
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 07, 2020, 12:04:09 pm
The AR does have extra "stuff" that might confuse a beginner.  For example,  you've got multiple controls (trigger, safety, bolt release, forward assist, charging handle).    Also the charging handle isn't completely obvious.  There isn't a big obvious bolt or lever to grab.    If you didn't know what it was, I can see how someone new wouldn't know how to operate it.

Of course maybe that's due to all the Counterstrike I played in college where the dumbass animator had the character pulling on the forward assist to charge the M4.  They also had all the weapon models mirror image flipped since he was left handed and was too fluffing lazy to fix the weapon models.       
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 08, 2020, 01:18:20 pm
Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it."  On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

What say y'all?  Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 09, 2020, 12:45:01 am
You have to put it in the proper context.  That involves your knowledge and ability to communicate with them as only you can and also the idea that the gun is not the whole thing or even the most important part. 

An analogy can be made to a fire extinguisher or a jack and a spare tire in the trunk of the car.  Those things are tools that help you deal with the problem at hand - a fire or a flat tire - but by themselves are just another inert object.   Without the knowledge and the skill to use those tools you won't be effective at putting out the fire or changing your own damaged tire.  There are many examples of the same type of thing but those two are familiar enough that most folks can relate to them. 

What they have to understand is that having the proper mind set and the proper skill set is often the key to avoiding the necessity of using the tools in the first place.  Fire safety involves not storing flammable materials in an unsafe manner and having smoke alarms installed to alert you that a fire is burning and once you know that you can then employ the fire extinguisher as needed. 

Tire maintenance involves inspecting the tires often, keeping them rotated and balanced and properly inflated before going on the highway.  Knowing what to look for and taking care of things before you hit the road may keep you from having to change a tire on the side of the road. 

Personal safety involving the use of deadly force is really no different in that you have to learn to be aware of your surroundings and the potential threats at all times.  It takes considerable time and effort to change the habits of a lifetime and acknowledge things just aren't the same way they used to be.  If you are to have any chance of effectively defending yourself or your loved ones in the event of an attack you must be able to recognize a threat and be equipped with the tools and the skills necessary to neutralize it. 

The gun is the last resort just as the fire extinguisher and the jack and spare are the last resort.  In the case of the fire extinguisher the smoke alarm is your first line of defense - particularly when you're sleeping.  In the case of going armed your awareness - or in the case of MR & PR their combined awareness is that first line of defense and good home security equipment and measures are there to stand guard while you are sleeping.  Nothing is foolproof but you try to give yourself the best chance you can to deal with whatever problems you may have to face. 

Honestly, most people have more trouble with the change in habits and learning to practice situational awareness than they do learning how to shoot the gun.  Motor skills and muscle memory can be practiced easier than changing the way you've thought about things for years.  On the plus side is the fact that they have agreed that such things are  necessary. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Kaso on August 09, 2020, 08:51:04 pm
Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it."  On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

What say y'all?  Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?
I would say to just tell them in person, but know this: The point in question is THE most important part of owning any tool for self defense.  If it is not understood, whether willingly or by accident, it would be better for one to accept a 'defenseless' state... because then they would know what they are.

Mindset > Skillset > Toolset

You have been asking about which tool is best, (and to be fair, it is a gun board) but from reading the thread I am not sure they have their mindset in order.  They are open to buying a gun, which is a major step, so I think they can be nudged the rest of the way in time.

To that end, If it were my parents, I would let Mama Raptor get her 'cowboy gun.'  Why?  It will ease both her and your father more gently into gun ownership, and cause them to accept their new gun as a part of their household security plan, not the talisman that you will warn them against.  And if shooting it is fun for her (and him - what boy growing up in the 50s-60s didn't want to be the Lone Ranger or the Rifleman?) she will be inclined to do it.  She will not be self conscious of people she knows 'seeing her' with her Assault Machine Gun. 

Add to that, a lever gun is easily kept in 'cruiser-ready condition' inside the safe, which is how I would recommend most people keep most defensive guns in safes. 

A .357 rifle's recoil will be minimal, a major concern with how often she will want to shoot.  Ammo capacity is sufficient for the intended task of keeping BLM and the like 'off their lawn,' and if it comes down to dropping the hammer, we are talking power levels sufficient for hunting whitetail.  Ammo cost will never be less than ~$.50/rd for hollowpoints, but will also be more stable than 5.56, so I call a wash. 

Ultimately, it comes down to what they will be comfortable with, and as your father is a long time anti-gunner hoplophobe, I do not think forcing or coercing an AR onto them will be productive.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 09, 2020, 10:07:00 pm
Just to be clear, I am not forcing or coercing an AR onto them: I just made the offer in case we can't find anything suitable while I'm down there, and I was quite clear that it's just an option, nothing more, and that they can say "no" if they want to.  If Mama Raptor wants an "Annie Oakley gun," and we find a lever-action rifle in .357 or .44 Mag (preferably the former), I'll be the first one to tell her to buy it.

Mama Raptor's main hangups with the AR seem to be that it's "heavy" (she did briefly handle mine to help me out with a Photoshop project for my Visual Media class -- I'll have to see if I can find that picture -- but it probably only weighs about 7.5 lbs) and "complicated," and to be fair all the levers and switches and buttons and doodads can seem frighteningly complex to someone who has no idea what any of it does, but a modicum of training should solve that problem.

And honestly, I don't really know where Papa Raptor is on the whole gun thing: all of my communication on the subject has been with Mama Raptor, but talking to my father about anything -- or heck, just talking with him in general -- is more often than not like trying to converse with a brick wall.  The vibe I'm getting from Mama Raptor is that he's not keen on the idea, but he recognizes the fact that the world's going to heck in a handbasket and it's probably a good idea to have one in the house, and he's not gonna stop Mama Raptor from getting one if she wants one. Probably because he knows from past history -- namely two dogs and one cable subscription -- that if she wants one, there's not a darn thing he can do to stop it.  Just don't expect him to ever touch it or learn how to use it.  Though again, if history is any indication, I'm pretty optimistic that Dad will come around sooner rather than later.

(and him - what boy growing up in the 50s-60s didn't want to be the Lone Ranger or the Rifleman?)

Yeah... probably not.  Because knowing my paternal grandmother, I'm fairly certain that both of those shows were banned in my father's house when he was a kid because they were "violent".  Heck, I know for a fact that the Adam West Batman show was verboten because Batman & Robin would punch and kick people (even if you never actually saw anyone get hit thanks to the "BAM" "BIFF!" "OOF!" and "SOCKAPOW!" title cards).  Grandma is... let's just say she's an interesting character, and the reason why Papa Raptor and my one uncle are the way they are, and leave it at that. (Seriously, who the heck describes their kid as being "a perfectly satisfactory child" in their presence, on their birthday!?)

Though Mom and Dad both readily recognize the utter hypocrisy and stupidity about not being allowed to watch obviously-fake violence but being encouraged to watch the evening news where they could and did see brilliant technicolor footage of real people getting killed over in Vietnam, complete with commentary by Walter Cronkite.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 09, 2020, 10:59:31 pm
Wow.   :shocked   An interesting glimpse into your life and that of your parents.  Even if PR has no interest in owning or handling the gun(s) in his own house perhaps he can be persuaded that two pairs of eyes and ears are better than one when it comes to keeping he and MR safe. 

Kaso's makes some good points - particularly with regard to using MR's "cowboy gun" to ease them into the idea of actually owning a gun and learning to handle it.   I had not even considered the idea that someone might feel "self conscious" about owning a gun but after having it explained to me it makes sense.   :facepalm   

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 10, 2020, 09:46:01 am
You know, the whole "self-conscious about owning a gun thing" didn't even occur to me.  And I'm kicking myself because it absolutely should have!

I was born and raised in a very anti-gun area (I think I used to refer to it as "Liberal Soccer Mom Central") where if people found out you owned guns, you were immediately regarded as either a terrorist, a wannabe mass-murderer just waiting for an excuse to snap and start shooting people, or both.  Even by people who'd known you for years and years before they found out you were a gun owner.  To the point where most of my coworkers thought I was the most boring person on the planet since I told them that I stayed at home and read books on my days off since I didn't dare tell them that I usually spent them at the pistol range.

My current AO is much different: when most of my friends and coworkers found out I own guns, the conversation immediately shifted to "What do you have?!" or "Where do you shoot?!"  Before COVIDpocalypse hit and I got laid off, there were talks at my workplace of trying to maybe put together a corporate outing to one of the local shooting ranges.

But even though I've been out here for over five years, I'm still somewhat guarded and reserved about owning guns because I'm still kind of afraid that I'll be stigmatized for it.

And I was born and raised in the same area that Mama & Papa Raptor both were, they left right about the same time I did (we more or less moved out here together), and they're both in their early-to-mid-60s.  So yeah, even though they're now surrounded by gun-owning conservatives (they only have only one openly-liberal neighbor, and there's an Anti-Trumper one or two streets over, but other than that it's all Republicans, and I believe I mentioned that a lot of their Bible Study friends have invited them to the range before), I should have absolutely realized that they'd be extremely self-conscious about owning a gun.

Big self- :bash


Oh, and just to clarify, the whole "He was a perfectly satisfactory child" thing happened at Papa Raptor's 60th birthday, so fairly recently and not when he was a kid, and she didn't appear to intend it maliciously.  Actually, I'm fairly certain that Grandma considers "satisfactory" to be a rather high compliment: I talked with her yesterday, and she very much wants to travel down to Florida to see Mama & Papa Raptor's new house since Papa Raptor designed it: she said that "she was sure that it was a very satisfactory house" and she sounded rather proud of Papa Raptor when she said it.  Mama Raptor worked with autistic children in a former life (she was a special-education aide at our local school district assigned to the emotional support unit), and based on her experiences with those kids, she's pretty certain that Grandma is "on the spectrum," so to speak.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 10, 2020, 02:20:31 pm
 :hmm  Got it.  Still, the way the language adapts and changes over time is interesting to study all by itself and in this instance "satisfactory" is certainly not a pejorative term.  Perhaps not even "damning with faint praise" in your Grandma's case as older generations of Americans were not as prone to hype and exaggeration as we have become of late. 

Satisfactory in the case of a person's expectations means that they have all been met - or so it seems to me - but today the word seems to be understood as something just short of a complaint.  Much like the word "regulated" in the Second Amendment has taken on a meaning altogether different today than what was understood at the time it was written.   :coffee

Hopefully the more permissive environment and circle of friends and acquaintances will reinforce the idea that law abiding gun owners are just regular people.  Nothing to see here - move along.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 10, 2020, 04:51:46 pm
Sent the "Master Document" to Mama Raptor.  I ended up just including The Four Rules, my recommendations on what to buy (in order of preference: PCCs, pistol-caliber lever guns, .30-30 lever guns, and 20-gauge Mossbergs) and the pros and cons of each, what they should not buy under any circumstances (junk brands, tiny revolvers, PGO shotguns, etc.), must-buy & should-buy accessories to get after buying a gun, and links to additional sources of information (Cornered Cat, Thunder Ranch's YouTube, and Mas Ayoob's articles in Backwoods Home).  Said that it wasn't urgent, they didn't have to look at it anytime soon, just that I thought it'd be a useful guide to have on hand.

Mama Raptor called me up about 15-20 minutes later to thank me, and said she was shocked at how comprehensive it was.  And I know she at least skimmed it because I included Remington -- specifically new-production Remington -- on the "Do Not Buy" list, and she told me she'd had no idea Remington was bad, she'd always thought it was good, and that was one of the brands she'd been thinking about getting.  She actually sounded kind of excited, and I get the vibe that she's feeling better about the whole thing because she no longer feels like she's "flying blind," so to speak.

I'm flying down there a week from today, so unless Mama and/or Papa Raptor have any major questions or concerns between now and then, my work here is done.  Mama Raptor already has her preferred FFL(s) picked out -- she asked her friends where they go -- so while I imagine we'll probably talk things over face-to-face at some point, I think the next update will be when we actually go out and they buy themselves something.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 10, 2020, 11:07:59 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: LowKey on August 11, 2020, 11:13:41 pm
Explain it in person once they've brought the gun home.   
Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it."  On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

What say y'all?  Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2020, 07:54:14 pm
Quick update:

We're probably gonna go next week: Mama Raptor's on board, she just has to get in touch with her friends and figure out which FFL(s) they recommend, and we'll go from there.

And I had a rather surprising conversation with Papa Raptor.  Turns out his dislike of guns isn't a moral objection so much as because they're really loud.  The one time he went to the range was at his uncle's house, and said uncle had built a shooting range in his basement.  Given my experience with ranges in basements, my guess is that it was an extremely unpleasant experience just put him off guns.  Given that I had a similar experience - and reaction to - dogs as a kid, I definitely see where he's coming from and why he feels the way he does.  But I figure that we'll be able to ease him into it, especially if we can get him to an outdoor range and set him up with something like a .22.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 22, 2020, 01:59:44 am
Sounds like a plan.  I wish you safe travel and good luck.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 22, 2020, 09:49:37 am
Many thanks.  I've actually been down in FL for a few days.  Heading back on the 1st.... unless Mama Raptor manages to convince me to stay longer.  Which, if I'm honest, won't be all that hard....
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 22, 2020, 01:07:50 pm
Hope the good weather holds up for you.  Things can get ugly in that part of the world during hurricane season. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 22, 2020, 03:25:18 pm
Yeah have him double up on the hearing protection too.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 27, 2020, 01:32:44 pm
Well, Papa Raptor just put his foot down: No guns, no way, no how.  No reason other than that he doesn't feel they're in an area that has any real threat against it, and being murdered - and his wife being raped and murdered - is preferable to going to jail and having to pay for a lawyer if you use a gun to defend yourself.

Three months of work down the tubes.

I need a f***ing drink.  And I'm half-tempted to change my last name.

EDIT: On the plus side Mama Raptor and I just learned of the existence of pepper gel, and she's going to order a Sabre Red Home Defense setup soon as the credit card billing cycle rolls over.  Better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit, and has longer reach than her cast-iron frying pan.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 27, 2020, 05:15:47 pm
To clarify the above, Papa Raptor didn't specifically say that being raped and murdered is preferable to being arrested, jailed, and having to pay a lawyer.  He said that he didn't want to be arrested, jailed, and have to pay money for a lawyer, I asked if rape and murder would be preferable, he didn't reply (but made a face).

Also, he flat-out refuses to even entertain the idea of coming to the range and learning how to shoot because "he has no interest whatsoever in doing so, guns aren't his thing."

And Mama Raptor told him that she was going to buy that Sabre Red Pepper Gel once it comes back in stock, he said it's a good idea and a "reasonable alternative" to a firearm.   :shrug  I disagree, but I'll take what I can get at this point.

And I still find myself pararphasing Sheriff Buford T. Justice:  "There ain't no way, ain't no way, that I could've come from that man's loins."
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Plebian on August 27, 2020, 07:22:34 pm
How would they feel about something like the Taser Pulse?
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 27, 2020, 08:29:19 pm
How would they feel about something like the Taser Pulse?

Mama Raptor is all for Tasers.  No idea how Papa Raptor feels about them, though I suspect he'd balk at the MSRP (heck, I balked at the MSRP! For $450, buy a SIG P320!).  Me, I've never been completely sold on them, but I think it'd be okay if they wanted to carry one around, but a single-shot weapon with a 15-foot range for home defense (especially since Mama Raptor and I are both worried about mobs and/or multiple intruders), not a good idea.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on August 27, 2020, 09:31:11 pm
Interesting development.   :hmm   Disappointing, to be certain, but take it for what it is and move forward.  It seems to me that PR is operating out of ignorance and fear - at least to some degree - so maybe that has to be dealt with after getting MR outfitted with her OC dispenser. 

Chris over at Lucky Gunner Lounge just did a segment on choosing a pepper spray product and did some testing to determine the pros and cons of various products.  I would check it out and have MR take a look also to get an idea of how they operate in the real world.  He also recommended a guy named Chuck Haggard of Agile Tactical Training as a good source of training and philosophy on the use of such weapons.  Be prepared to find limited selection(s) as the current run on guns and ammunition has spilled over into that area as well. 

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on August 28, 2020, 09:27:59 am
Interesting development.   :hmm   Disappointing, to be certain, but take it for what it is and move forward.  It seems to me that PR is operating out of ignorance and fear - at least to some degree - so maybe that has to be dealt with after getting MR outfitted with her OC dispenser. 

Chris over at Lucky Gunner Lounge just did a segment on choosing a pepper spray product and did some testing to determine the pros and cons of various products.  I would check it out and have MR take a look also to get an idea of how they operate in the real world.  He also recommended a guy named Chuck Haggard of Agile Tactical Training as a good source of training and philosophy on the use of such weapons.  Be prepared to find limited selection(s) as the current run on guns and ammunition has spilled over into that area as well. 

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/

Thanks much.  I'll pass those along.

Dunno if it's ignorance & fear so much as Papa Raptor has a very narrow worldview and is extremely set in his ways, and it takes a literal act of God to change either.  His mother's like that (but worse: at least he doesn't have her "If I like/dislike it, then everyone else must like/dislike it!" attitude), and as I said earlier in the thread, he takes after her.

Mama Raptor might just do what she did with cable and our first dog and get one anyway whether he likes it or not.  At the very least, she'd like to go back to the range again, though COVID's making that rather difficult.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Plebian on August 28, 2020, 07:14:00 pm
If they are dead set against a firearm period. Then a cold steel bushman knife and a fiberglass hoe handle might be in order. 

The spear has defended castles and hovels alike for many centuries.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Kaso on August 29, 2020, 05:18:07 pm
His reaction is similar to what I have seen when a person is 'backed into a corner' in an argument, and knows they will lose.  So naturally they push back vehemently, and reframe the argument. 

Point is, he knows he was losing the argument, so he shut it down and started a new one. Kind of cowardly, but it is his house to make the call.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on August 30, 2020, 12:15:07 am
My dad is somewhat similar.   He's not completely anti-gun,  just sort of indifferent about it and has never owned one.   Self defense isn't a major concern in a small town in the middle of Kansas.  He's thought about buying a shotgun for trap shooting occasionally, but it's just never happened.   I doubt he'd ever buy an AR and thinks we need to have more gun control in general.   I was really the first enthusiast in the family and I started buying stuff when I was in college.   One of my cousins has been building a bit of a collection the past few years.   Not to the level I have, but respectable.     

My dad was also in a union for his entire career before he retired, and always votes for democrats.  I think his political views are sort of stuck in the 1970s and he thinks that republicans are all about helping rich people and the corporate executives.   He's still pissed at Reagan for firing the air traffic controllers.   I'd argue that neither party is really the friend of the average person.   Just look at how woke Corporate America has become.   Wall Street also loves them some big government.   The larger government is,  the easier it is for them to game the system and make it harder for smaller competitors to enter the market.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 08, 2020, 06:26:00 pm
Any new developments ?   :hmm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 09, 2020, 11:11:27 am
Any new developments ?   :hmm

Not really.  Mama Raptor's still working on Papa Raptor, but I've no idea if it's actually having any effect.  Papa Raptor read the whole long document of recommendations that I put together for them (including a long diatribe on why they should go with a semi-automatic, what a semi-automatic is and isn't, etc.) and he was "very impressed" with the level of detail I included, but again, I don't think it actually had any effect.

That said, I've been part of and party to multiple conversations between Mama & Papa Raptors and their friends and neighbors, and the discussions have always organically (i.e. I didn't push them) to how crazy things are, how if BLM and Antifa can show up in someplace like Kenosha, they'll show up -- and burn -- anywhere, and how it's vital that everyone "have a means to protect themselves and their family."  Even their hard-core Democrat neighbors have admitted that they now own guns for that reason.  So maybe he'll come around? I dunno.  Man's almost impossible to read.

Good news is that he thought the Pepper Gel Home Defense kit is a good idea, and I think they're going to buy it as soon as it comes back in stock someplace (Sabre Red is completely sold out, as are all of their distributors).

Mama Raptor's sister, funny enough, has gotten involved in the whole mess:  she and her husband are EXTREMELY pro-2A and EXTREMELY outspoken.  She's called Papa Raptor "a damn fool" and is adamant that Mama Raptor just get one anyway "and who cares if he doesn't like it?!  You're a strong independent woman!"  If she's pulling the Feminist Card (she is most certainly not a new-wave Feminist), you know she's serious.

Anyway...

Mama Raptor does want to go back to the range at some point.  We're not sure if we're going to do that while I'm still down here (I extended my stay for a few weeks, flying up on Monday) or if we'll visit my usual range when she flies up to the Burgh at some point in the near future.  And I think she might end up buying a gun regardless of Papa Raptor's wishes, especially depending on how that range trip goes.

Speaking of which, I'm thinking about picking up a CMMG .22LR conversion kit for my AR-15, both as a training aid and so I can practice on an indoor range without breaking the bank, using up my supply of rifle ammo, and blowing my eardrums out.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on September 09, 2020, 04:13:07 pm
I've got a dedicated .22LR upper for one of mine (well actually a whole rifle since I bought a lower to go with it),  but I never could get the damn thing to run reliably.   Always fails to go back into battery.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 09, 2020, 11:29:10 pm
I am glad to hear that they are getting input from other sources than just you.  Don't get me wrong - I like you.  I'm sure your parents like you.  If your parents are anything like mine and you told them the sky was blue today they would go outside and do a quick check just to make sure.   :facepalm

You might want to look into training aids that don't require a range trip to get in some gun handling.  I think everybody has a few snap caps around but there is a whole world of stuff out there that can improve skills without burning gunpowder.  It would help you stay sharp and maybe help MR to gain some confidence and skill as well as a little muscle memory.  Who knows, if PR gets used to seeing his wife practicing he might have to concede defeat and get with the program.   :cool

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 09, 2020, 11:47:41 pm
I am glad to hear that they are getting input from other sources than just you.  Don't get me wrong - I like you.  I'm sure your parents like you.  If your parents are anything like mine and you told them the sky was blue today they would go outside and do a quick check just to make sure.   :facepalm

You might want to look into training aids that don't require a range trip to get in some gun handling.  I think everybody has a few snap caps around but there is a whole world of stuff out there that can improve skills without burning gunpowder.  It would help you stay sharp and maybe help MR to gain some confidence and skill as well as a little muscle memory.  Who knows, if PR gets used to seeing his wife practicing he might have to concede defeat and get with the program.   :cool



LOL!  No, I get you: sometimes it feels like my parents think I'm still a loudmouth idiot teenager who doesn't know a bag of beans about anything.

I'll float the idea of snap caps, etc.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 10, 2020, 05:03:46 pm
Quick update:

Was running errands with Mama Raptor earlier when an ad came on the radio for a nearby gun show this weekend.  As a joke, I asked Mama Raptor if she'd like to go.  She said sure, but she's not comfortable buying there.  But it might be a good opportunity to at least handle a few things, get an idea for what she likes or doesn't like.  It's schedule-permitting (we have a few things going on over the weekend already), but... we'll see.  :shrug

Also, I'm extending my stay for at least a few days (made it to the final round of the hiring process for a job application, and the last interview is scheduled for the same day I'd be flying home), and I found a pretty decent gun shop/range down here, so we may end up going there.  Again, nothing definite, but we'll see.  EDIT: Only staying down another two days, so odds are if we go to the range, it'll probably be up north.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on September 10, 2020, 11:00:25 pm
Are they doing gun shows there yet?    I don't think they have had one here this year.  They canceled the big one in March since things were just kicking off with the public gathering limits.

I think the one scheduled for October is on.  I won't be going to it though.  I'll probably be out of town, and even if I wasn't, I don't like the idea of being in a super crowded building.   Especially since there probably won't be anything to buy since everything has been snapped up by panic buyers in the past 6 months.     
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 11, 2020, 12:07:36 am
They just announced a couple here in the Phoenix metro area.   I'm sure there will be some overpriced product for those who attend and probably a few safe queens drug out and shined up on the tables. 

I think the gun show idea for MR is probably a good one.  No pressure on her to buy anything there - just look around and handle a couple of things as you say.   Might even get a new idea or two.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on September 11, 2020, 11:36:15 am
I'd be a little hesitant if I hadn't gone to the show first to see what they were like in that area.   You don't want her scared off by mall ninjas or douchebags selling Nazi memorabilia.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 11, 2020, 06:13:38 pm
I'd be a little hesitant if I hadn't gone to the show first to see what they were like in that area.   You don't want her scared off by mall ninjas or douchebags selling Nazi memorabilia.   

I did tell her that running into those characters is a distinct possibility, and she was fully expecting it to be full of rednecks (this is Florida, after all) even before I mentioned them.  Still open to going, though she still hasn't decided if she's going to go or not go.  That's due to her being concerned with being in a large crowd (thank you COVID) more than anything else.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 12, 2020, 01:58:16 pm
So, somebody needs to check the seventh seal: not only did Mama Raptor and I go to the show, but Papa Raptor came with us!  Willingly!

The show itself was rather small (120-ish tables, we saw the whole thing in about a half hour, tops) and disappointing: very limited selection, mostly reeeeaaaaaly old used rifles, most of which were in poor shape, and imported Turkish shotguns.  Decent, though limited, selection of handguns (including a brand-new CZ-97.  Too bad I'm not a FL resident  :'( ).  Only one dude selling Nazi memorabilia, but he was an older gentleman who looked to be selling off a historical collection rather than a skinhead trying to fund and recruit for the movement.

We didn't buy anything, but I did point out some of the long guns that I'd recommended to Mama Raptor.   She was glad to be able to get a clear picture of what I've suggested, but she's a bit put-off by how "big" the rifles and shotguns are, so I think she may end up going with a handgun of some sort.  She also says that if/when she buys, it's going to be at a gun shop vs. a gun show.

Papa Raptor... hard to read.  He didn't hate it (because he'd have made it quite clear if he did), but I doubt he'd ever go to another one.  He said it was "interesting" and that he got to "experience a culture that he normally wouldn't have taken part in."

EDIT: and we ran into one of Mama Raptor's friends at the show (and the friend's mom, who's 94 and still up and at it, God bless her!).  Friend was looking for a concealed carry piece and had gotten so much contradictory advice that she didn't know what to do.   I took a look at the list of guns that had been recommended to her (S&W Airweight Centennial, SIG P238, and S&W Shield 9mm EZ), explained the pros and cons of each and my personal suggestions (either the SIG or the Shield, and don't touch the snubbie with a 10-foot pole!) and suggested she find a range that rented guns to try them out.  Didn't offer to take her myself because 1) I don't know her and 2) I'm not sure if I'd be able to fit in a range trip before I fly home on Wednesday).
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on September 12, 2020, 02:31:06 pm
From what you've told us, PR may be realizing that A) MR is going to do what she's going to do, whether he likes it or not, and/or B) it really is getting sketchy out there and if he truly loves your mother he needs to try and protect her, whether that impinges on his comfort zone or not.

Glad to hear all of the above.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 12, 2020, 03:27:52 pm
Agreed on all counts.   :thumbup1   

As we have said before, youth model long guns may be the way to go.  Long guns because of terminal ballistics performance and better hit probability on targets beyond conversational distance.  They don't have to be huge and heavy either. 

A twenty gauge shotgun is manageable by nearly anyone if the stock fits properly.  The Remington 870 youth model is a joy to shoot and operates pretty slickly once broken in.  A pistol caliber carbine in a lever gun can be either a .410 gauge shotgun or any of the various pistol calibers but usually .38 sp/ .357 mag.   Any of those would put any pistol MR and PR could handle easily to shame in the effect on target. 

Marlin made youth models for many years in the .30-30 Winchester and kids have gone afield for years toting those guns in search of their first deer.  Not a bad choice IMO.  Reduced recoil loadings are available for the guns from several manufacturers. 

Even something as ubiquitous as the Ruger 10/22 or the Marlin model 60 are readily available and the rim fire ammo still shows up on the shelves here of late.  A .22 long rifle would not be my first choice as a home defense weapon but it beats the hell out of harsh language.   :cool

They are easy to feed and maintain and the lack of recoil makes practicing proper technique easier for teaching new shooters how its done - just as it has for generations of us.   Who among you would willingly face a skilled marksman armed with a semi-automatic .22 LR if you were intent on invading his space?  Not me.   :coffee

As for pistols, a gun that is sometimes overlooked is the Walther PK 380.  They aren't flawless by any means and the take-down is kind of cumbersome compared to many others in its class but in terms of ergonomics they are hard to beat.  A gun that fits you and feels good in the hand is usually easier to hit with in my experience.  If you can live with its flaws it might be one to consider. 

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 12, 2020, 03:53:35 pm
I think once Mama Raptor actually handles a gun (we just looked today, didn't touch anything), then her concerns with the size and weight will probably go away.  I remember having the same reaction at my first gun show - guns, especially long guns, were much larger than I'd thought they'd be.

coelacanth, your suggestions line up pretty closely with the ones I made to Mama Raptor, particularly regarding youth-size shotguns (though I suggested the Mossberg 500 over the Remington), and for the same reasons.  A .22LR rifle is pretty much at the bottom of the list, but like you said, it's better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit.  I confess that I've put more emphasis on long guns vs. handguns since Mama Raptor isn't interested in getting a Concealed Carry Permit, and IMO a long gun is better for home defense, and therefore haven't recommended any specific handguns other than "take a pistol class and then rent a few different handguns at the range and see what you like."

I'm not really keen on the PK380 since it's based a bit too closely on the P22 for my liking (and those had a whole host of issues IIRC), but I would recommend something like the CCP 380, or the SIG P238 or either of the S&W Shield EZ models.  Though if she wanted something for home defense vs concealled carry, I'd probably suggest something larger and with a correspondingly higher magazine capacity, like the Glock 19 or HK VP9 or SIG P320.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 12, 2020, 04:31:46 pm
Yes, a lot depends on her impression(s) from handling and shooting the first time or two.  Sometimes things emerge that need to be addressed that were previously unknown.  I have seen shooters just learning that assumed they were right handed because they did everything else right handed but ended up being left handed shooters because it worked better for them.  Frequently that has to do with a cross dominance situation when sighting but other times its a strength, dexterity, balance issue. 

Things she and PR can do now is get equipped with some powerful illumination gear that can light up the property from one end to the other, get a couple of personal walkie-talkie type radios that aren't dependent on cell service and work out a plan for checking on things that go bump in the night. Basic preparedness stuff but there are so many who haven't actually done it.   :shrug   If they have - good on them - but it needs doing so I mentioned it. 

The Mossberg 500 and the Maverick can be outfitted with a loading block that allows them to run the short little 1 3/4" 12 gauge shells which have very little recoil comparatively speaking.  I'll see if I can find the link for that doohickey and the test review of it.  Might be something to look into as 12 gauge guns are way more plentiful than anything else.   :hmm
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 12, 2020, 05:05:47 pm
Found it :   https://www.opsolmini-clip.com
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 13, 2020, 01:52:27 pm
Eh.... the minishells and Omniclip are a great idea, don't get me wrong (and I'll definitely go that route myself if I do succumb to my desire to buy and SBS a Shockwave), but I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible for Mama Raptor.  Her needing to buy "special" ammo, especially hard-to-find stuff that most shops don't stock, would just complicate and confuse things to the point where she'd probably throw up her hands and decide she was D-O-N-E DONE! with the whole gun thing.

They have basic preparedness pretty well in hand: they have a whole walk-in closet full of basic supplies (they call it the "Costco Closet") in case of bad weather and/or hurricane season.  The house and property are small enough that powerful lights and two-way radios are probably unnecessary.  The only thing they don't have are corded phones or a true landline (they do have cordless handsets on a VOIP carrier).  I've tried prevailing upon them to get both (if internet goes down, they lose all phones), but since their VOIP is cheaper than a landline, Papa Raptor says it's just fine.   :banghead
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 13, 2020, 04:15:03 pm
Yup.  Old habits are hard to break and we have become accustomed to having electric power and communications at our fingertips 24/7/365.  I think the powerful light(s) are still a really good idea and also some form of two way radio comms not dependent on the internet or cell service. 

A personal anecdote, if I may, to illustrate the point:  Last year we experienced significant roof damage during a storm and the repair was delayed for nine days because we weren't the only ones damaged and the roofing companies were overbooked even for covered insurance claims.  So, there's me up on the roof laying down plastic tarps and trying to weight them down to keep them in place during subsequent stormy weather.  Have you ever noticed how many storms happen during the hours of darkness? 

The evening after laying down the tarps we had a major line of thunderstorms move through which knocked out the power for a couple of hours in our area.  My main trouble light is 800 lumens and throws a beam you could read by about a hundred yards so its the go to light for stuff like that.  I was able to determine - from the ground - that my tarp weighting was holding fast and we didn't need to worry about additional damage.  Cell phones were out due to damage to a couple of cell towers in the area and my cheap a&& Radio Shack walkie talkies I got to play around with the grand kids were pressed into service.  Mrs. c and I were able to communicate quite well over about 300 yards of suburban neighborhood terrain except for a little cross-talk with a neighbor who was using a similar set-up.  The ability to cut through the darkness of a power outage during a storm and communicate without having to worry about cell service ( our ISP was spotty for a couple of days afterward also  :facepalm ) was quite comforting and could be a game changer in some situations.   We just recently used the walkie talkies to coordinate plumbing repair activity where she was inside the house monitoring the spot of the leak and I was out front with the curb key turning the main water valve on - and needing to know if I should quickly turn it off again. 

I guess those things aren't absolutely necessary in most situations but they sure have come in handy for us and they would be the go-to tools in a another emergency. 

Can't say I disagree with your thinking on the mini-shells but they have been fairly available here and my thought was to give the best terminal performance with a manageable amount of recoil.  Reliability with the OpSol clip has been good in my Mossberg Maverick 88 using both the Champion shells and the Federal stuff.  If you begin to get the idea I am fond of the shotgun for home defense I must plead guilty as charged.  :cool 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 13, 2020, 06:15:37 pm
Fortunately, they do still have a generator (I think: I'm 99% sure they brought it with them when they retired down here, but don't quote me on that).  I'll bring up emergency comms at some point in the not-too-distant future, but I don't want to push things: I've come dangerously close to wearing out my welcome (so to speak) with the gun topic over the last few months.

I've no idea what ammo availability is like down here, but up in The Burgh, only two shops I know of stock the mini-shells, and they don't get them in regularly, and when they do have them in stock, they only seem to have birdshot.

If they do end up going the shotgun route, I've suggested a Mossberg 500 Youth Bantam in 20-gauge.  And though it's far from ideal (IMO) I'd even be semi-comfortable suggesting a .410: Federal makes a 3" load with 9 pellets of #4 buckshot at 1100 fps.  That's still nothing to sneeze at.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 13, 2020, 06:58:16 pm
Agreed.  I wouldn't want to face either of those from the business end. 

Generators are cool things to have but if its not already hooked up and ready to go it takes at least a few minutes before you are producing power.

Ask me how I know .  .  .   :facepalm   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 13, 2020, 08:28:25 pm
Yeah, been there, done that.  Had to help drag it out of the garage and get it hooked up many times, including after one or two bad snowstorms.

Fortunately, Papa Raptor wired the house so that we could plug the generator directly into the house's electrical system (don't know what the technical term is) instead of having to run extension cords from the generator to whatever it was we wanted to power.  Unfortunately, he didn't do that until after at least one big storm.   :facepalm  Fortunately, the new house is wired such that he can plug the generator directly into the house grid (or whatever it's called).
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 13, 2020, 09:42:26 pm
Basically its a transfer switch added to the existing electrical service and usually has a four pin plug installed for the generator to hook into the panel.   More sophisticated systems are generally reserved for bigger stand-bye generator set-ups that come on automatically in case of a power failure.  There are some off the grid systems here in Arizona that use a combination of solar panels, battery banks and either diesel or propane powered whole house generators for times when the solar/battery array is not up to the task. 

Its good that the new house has the wiring already installed.   :thumbup1



Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 13, 2020, 09:54:49 pm
Transfer switch!  That's the word I was looking for!

Yeah, Papa Raptor made sure to include that particular feature when he designed the house.  They bought a vacant lot and built on it.  Papa Raptor designed it himself, and did a bang-up job if I do say so myself.  He wanted to be an architect when he was a kid, but ultimately pursued a career in finance and investor relations: Mama Raptor likes to joke that he's a "frustrated architect."
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Kaso on September 14, 2020, 01:44:57 pm
Too much time is being spent making sure they get 'the right gun' for them.  I understand why, and it is well intentioned, but that is not the priority.

The most important steps they can take to be ready for a riot in their neighborhood are:

 - Be 100% ready to defend themselves with lethal force.  Mentally, emotionally, psychologically, etc.

 - Have the physical fitness and learned skills necessary to be able to do so with whatever tool they choose for that task.  Whether that is a broomstick, a camp axe, or a firearm.

 - Choose a tool and commit to it.

If they are considering a firearm, ANY firearm that they are willing to practice with will do.  A Ruger 10/22 is not what anyone here would pick, but why not?  If she is willing to take a few trips to the range and learn it, I would declare a win.  Buy her a few boxes of hot CCI rounds for Christmas.

Conversely, if you can talk her into something more effective, so much the better.  But don't lose the momentum by trying to get just a little bit more and stalling out. A 10/22 or a Saturday night special in her safe are both wins.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 14, 2020, 01:58:28 pm
Too much time is being spent making sure they get 'the right gun' for them.  I understand why, and it is well intentioned, but that is not the priority.

The most important steps they can take to be ready for a riot in their neighborhood are:

 - Be 100% ready to defend themselves with lethal force.  Mentally, emotionally, psychologically, etc.

 - Have the physical fitness and learned skills necessary to be able to do so with whatever tool they choose for that task.  Whether that is a broomstick, a camp axe, or a firearm.

 - Choose a tool and commit to it.

If they are considering a firearm, ANY firearm that they are willing to practice with will do.  A Ruger 10/22 is not what anyone here would pick, but why not?  If she is willing to take a few trips to the range and learn it, I would declare a win.  Buy her a few boxes of hot CCI rounds for Christmas.

Conversely, if you can talk her into something more effective, so much the better.  But don't lose the momentum by trying to get just a little bit more and stalling out. A 10/22 or a Saturday night special in her safe are both wins.

Absolutely agreed on all counts.  And I think Mama Raptor is there mentally (Papa Raptor's still coming around): watching the riots in our old hometowns (they rioted in freaking Lancaster PA for crying out loud!  Amish country!) have really been a reality check: it's finally clicked that yes, it can happen in their neighborhood.  And Mama Raptor has a cast-iron frying pan that she says (only partly joking) is her go-to for when the rioters show up.  It's big and heavy enough to flatten skulls.  But we both agree that it won't do much good if Mr. Antifa is waaaaaaaaaay over there with a molotov cocktal.

And I haven't been pushing them towards or away from specific platforms (aside from Shockwaves and the Taurus Judge), but I've been clear that some firearms and platforms are more effective than others, and that while a .22LR is not ideal, it will absolutely work if need be (specifically listed the 10/22 and the TCR22 in my document of recommendations, and pointed out a TCR22 at the gun show and told MR that "if you get a .22 for home defense, you should get one like this.")
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 14, 2020, 02:09:05 pm
Kaso's points are on target.  Mindset, skillset, toolset - these are the three legs supporting your defense.  There seems to be a general consensus that these "peaceful protests" are going to continue for the foreseeable future.  That forces many of us to consider what was previously unthinkable. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on September 16, 2020, 01:10:09 pm
We're in for trouble no matter which way the election goes.  Trump wins, we get more riots.   Biden wins,  the democrats go full on communist.   One silver lining is that they have alienated law enforcement so much,  they might have trouble finding people to enforce all their bulls___.     
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 16, 2020, 04:12:23 pm
We're in for trouble no matter which way the election goes.  Trump wins, we get more riots.   Biden wins,  the democrats go full on communist.   One silver lining is that they have alienated law enforcement so much,  they might have trouble finding people to enforce all their bulls___.     

That's what their Antifa/BLM sturmtruppen are for.  They're already going around intimidating and assaulting random people on the streets and at restaurants, demanding that they show solidarity with the movement or else.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 16, 2020, 10:39:09 pm
I notice we don't see any videos of that kind of thing from the recent gathering of motorcycle enthusiasts in Sturgis, South Dakota.   :hmm   We've had some rodeos here over the summer and a few county fairs that also seem devoid of any such activity.   I'm guessing the venue has quite a bit to do with the chance of an outbreak of a "peaceful protesting" .    :coffee   

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: TommyGunn on September 17, 2020, 01:48:28 pm
I notice we don't see any videos of that kind of thing from the recent gathering of motorcycle enthusiasts in Sturgis, South Dakota.   :hmm   We've had some rodeos here over the summer and a few county fairs that also seem devoid of any such activity.   I'm guessing the venue has quite a bit to do with the chance of an outbreak of a "peaceful protesting" .    :coffee   

The "peaceful protestors"  tend to avoid places assumed to be armed.  In atleast one case where their judgement proved erroneous,  their bus was met by armed townsfolk.  They wisely turned tail.

This may, however,  change;   BLM and the antifaschiste aktion  sturmtruppen seem to be obtaining firearms.

Stay frosty out there.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on September 17, 2020, 02:39:36 pm
The bigger problem is the commies in local positions of power giving them a pass.   You'll notice that the POS that got his arm shredded in Kenosha isn't in jail even though he was trying to shoot someone with a Glock and had a prior rap sheet that probably would have disqualified him from legally owning it.

We're not going somewhere good and I don't see things turning around. I just hope enough good people are out there that we don't end up with the worst possible outcome.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 17, 2020, 06:22:42 pm
I notice we don't see any videos of that kind of thing from the recent gathering of motorcycle enthusiasts in Sturgis, South Dakota.   :hmm   We've had some rodeos here over the summer and a few county fairs that also seem devoid of any such activity.   I'm guessing the venue has quite a bit to do with the chance of an outbreak of a "peaceful protesting" .    :coffee   



Something like a half-dozen Antifa showed up to try to cause trouble in Sturgis... and then refused to enter the rally and cause mischief without a massive police escort, which they received.  Good thing, too: one of the little geniuses decided to kick over somebody's bike.  The cops immediately scooped them up and got them out before the crowd could rip the idiot apart.

Another idiot got caught tagging structures and vehicles with graffiti, did over $10k in property damage.  Local DA is throwing the book at them.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 17, 2020, 09:57:36 pm
Apparently your olde home town got serious about curtailing stupid as well.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 18, 2020, 04:43:01 pm
Philly?  Last I heard, they were still catering and pandering.

Hopefully Lancaster County put its foot down hard, but I confess that I really haven't been paying attention to the news this week.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 19, 2020, 02:24:09 pm
Yeah, just saw the news: Lancaster put the boot down hard.  Deployed the Riot Police from the get-go and apparently dispersed everyone (and arrested quite a few "troublemakers") in very short order.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on September 19, 2020, 09:48:45 pm
Apparently the judge wimped out and reduced bail.   :bash   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on September 20, 2020, 06:17:32 pm
Apparently the judge wimped out and reduced bail.   :bash   

 :facepalm

That actually doesn't surprise me, since Lancaster the city is pretty liberal (and home to Franklin & Marshall, which was a rather liberal school 15-ish years ago when I was college hunting, don't want to imagine what it's like now), but at least they were actually arrested and charged, vs. the whole catch-and-release bullsh*t that most other cities are doing.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on October 10, 2020, 06:02:52 pm
So, quick update.

Not much of anything has happened. Mama Raptor is still interested, but hasn't signed up for a class yet: she wants me to teach her when I go back down to FL over the holidays.  She'd rather learn from me than from some stranger, which I get.  But I've told her that she should take an actual class since that should have a very useful classroom portion which I won't really be able to duplicate (not having ready access to a firearm or training-quality firearms facsimile), and so all I'll really be able to do is take her straight onto the range and go over most everything on the firing line.  Stuff like the four rules and proper sight alignment I can do back at the house, but we tried the whole "these are what all the controls are" think while we were on the firing line once already, and it didn't go well.  Mama Raptor says she understands and agrees that that's probably a better idea, so.... we'll see.

Dunno if Papa Raptor is on board yet (doubt it), but Mama Raptor was horrified by Keith Olbermann's latest rant - the one where he calls conservatives and Trump supporter "maggots" and says that we need to be "removed from society," - and actually called me up to help her find the transcript of what he said so she could read it to Papa Raptor.  So hopefully that will be at least part of a wake-up call.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 11, 2020, 03:18:00 pm
Not surprising, really, when you think about what a clusterfluff this year has been.  Its been hard enough to just keep up with everything this year - much less take on something new.   I can well understand the feeling of wanting a loved one to teach the important stuff as my own mother reacted in precisely the same way.  The basic rapport is already there which fosters trust in the outcome of something that seems new and strange and potentially ominous. 

There is always going to be a learning curve but having absolute trust in your instructor removes an important variable and is an important thing to a novice.  It also removes the fear of making a mistake or not keeping up with a group in a more formal setting that was paid for with hard earned cash.  Basic instructions and knowledge reviews can be done at home as can gun handling and dry fire drills.  That is where you really reinforce the triad of "mindset, skillset, toolset" and begin to build competence.  IMO.   

Mr. Olbermann ( hereinafter referred to as TAO ) is one of those "gifts" that just keep on giving.   :facepalm   We seem to be awash in idiots with bullhorns these days but TAO seems to have made it to the pinnacle of that particular group.   I imagine a transcript of his remarks will be easy to find in the next few days while its being dissected and fashioned into a sharp stick with which to poke leftist/statist types concerned with the outcome of the general election. 

It is always easy to dismiss the lunatic fringe of any ideology and comfort oneself with the presumption that most involved with it would stop any sort of truly radical thinking and violence by its members out of enlightened self interest.   Unfortunately, that phenomenon seems to be entirely absent of late.  The "wake-up call" you refer to is beginning to work its way through the populace despite large numbers of us being determined to ignore it yet again and count on the status quo being maintained by sheer cultural inertia.  That approach has been tried for millennia and has a history of catastrophic failure that is impossible to ignore. 



Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on October 11, 2020, 04:24:29 pm
Not surprising, really, when you think about what a clusterfluff this year has been.  Its been hard enough to just keep up with everything this year - much less take on something new.   I can well understand the feeling of wanting a loved one to teach the important stuff as my own mother reacted in precisely the same way.  The basic rapport is already there which fosters trust in the outcome of something that seems new and strange and potentially ominous. 

There is always going to be a learning curve but having absolute trust in your instructor removes an important variable and is an important thing to a novice.  It also removes the fear of making a mistake or not keeping up with a group in a more formal setting that was paid for with hard earned cash.  Basic instructions and knowledge reviews can be done at home as can gun handling and dry fire drills.  That is where you really reinforce the triad of "mindset, skillset, toolset" and begin to build competence.  IMO.   

Absolutely agreed, and I totally get where Mama Raptor is coming from (which I tried to say, but I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't particularly coherent or even with it yesterday - started a new job Monday and I was beyond exhausted).  My only hangup, as I said, is that when I go down to visit them, I don't have ready access to a firearm or facsimile (blue gun, airsoft gun, dummy gun, etc.) to go over the basics with Mama Raptor when I go down there.  Yes, I know I could bring one of mine, but I typically fly in and out of Tampa, and I'm given to understand that that's one of the least gun-friendly airports in the country.  That said, I can probably order a cheap airsoft gun off of Amazon and that will work well enough for my purposes.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 11, 2020, 06:07:38 pm
Videos on line are helpful.  Watching a detailed, slow motion video of someone actually handling a gun like one you will have to handle is instructive but no substitute for actual hands-on experience.  Perhaps a trip to a local gun store might be in order to allow her to handle a few and experience a dry firing cycle prior to a range trip.  I wish I had a better answer but your situation is a difficult one - especially with PR not fully on board yet.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on October 11, 2020, 06:16:48 pm
We'll figure something out.  I'm going back down for Thanksgiving and staying through New Year's (yay remote employment!).  Aside from when Little Brother and Soon-To-Be-Sister-In-Law visit (LB didn't much care for guns before he spent a decade in academia, and STBSIL is a born & raised dyed-in-the-wool New England Liberal), we'll have plenty of time).
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 11, 2020, 06:25:52 pm
Maybe by then we'll know the outcome of the election and all that can get thrown into the mix.  Good times.   :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on October 11, 2020, 06:49:07 pm
Yeah.  Good like a toothache.

Mama Raptor's already pretty certain - as am I - that the left is going to go full BURN THE WITCHES! regardless of how the Election turns out.  No idea, as usual, what Papa Raptor's thinking.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 11, 2020, 09:17:16 pm
Yup.  TAO is trying to tap into that vein of poisonous hatred and insanity that is present in some on the left and I fear he will be at least partially successful given his name recognition and the size of his previous audience.  I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't bet money on it at this point.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Kaso on October 11, 2020, 09:29:59 pm
I don't watch television, let alone the MSM news.  So I had not heard of TAO's rant before here.  I looked it up, and it is attached for your reference.

https://youtu.be/9Xz-efxHUy0

That is - and I do not exaggerate in the slightest - the most completely and totally untrue piece I have ever heard.  Almost down to the syllable, every word he says is 180 degrees opposite of reality. 

Watching this made me realize...  This country is done.  The US of A as we know it will cease to exist.  We are heading toward a totalitarian system, the only question remaining is who will come out on top - Left or Right.

If Biden wins, the Left will grow stronger and more organized, biding their time under a friendly administration until 2024.  If Trump wins, (my bet, honestly, knowing and seeing what I have) then we will be treated to more of this for four years at most, until the powder keg ignites.

The Left...  For all their bullshít rhetoric, is the party of fascism.  Period.  Full stop.  The mobs in the streets, the calls for violence, the characterisation of those different from them - 'the other' - as less than human, as vermin...  Where have we seen this before?

If Raptor can tell his mother one thing, let it be this: The next Holocaust is already rolling.  We can stop it, maybe to a degree, but it is happening.  And make no mistake, 'we' are the ones marked for the gas chambers.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 11, 2020, 09:42:25 pm
A well reasoned assessment sir.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Mikee5star on October 11, 2020, 11:16:49 pm
I also am in agreement.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on October 12, 2020, 05:56:37 pm
If Raptor can tell his mother one thing, let it be this: The next Holocaust is already rolling.  We can stop it, maybe to a degree, but it is happening.  And make no mistake, 'we' are the ones marked for the gas chambers.

I've been sayin' it and sayin' it and sayin' it for at least 2-3 years.  But I can't get the idea of "they hate you because you exist" to sink in.  I think, at some level, that I'm still considered either a stupid kid who doesn't know what he's talking about, or else I'm overexaggerating things (as I admit I was want to do in my youth).

Maybe I should just start taking my own advice: you can't save anyone who doesn't want to be saved.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 13, 2020, 02:00:23 am
Generally true but its hard to give up on someone you care about - especially family.   :coffee
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: LowKey on October 16, 2020, 11:25:29 pm

It is always easy to dismiss the lunatic fringe of any ideology and comfort oneself with the presumption that most involved with it would stop any sort of truly radical thinking and violence by its members out of enlightened self interest.   Unfortunately, that phenomenon seems to be entirely absent of late.  The "wake-up call" you refer to is beginning to work its way through the populace despite large numbers of us being determined to ignore it yet again and count on the status quo being maintained by sheer cultural inertia.  That approach has been tried for millennia and has a history of catastrophic failure that is impossible to ignore.

I believe this amplifies your comment...
https://youtu.be/Ry3NzkAOo3s
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on October 17, 2020, 12:05:37 am
Yes, Ms. Gabriel has been a voice in the wilderness for decades as most of us can't be bothered to understand those who have declared themselves our enemies.  She is a formidable foe of Islamic jihadis and Marxists as is a local physician here in Phoenix, Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser who understands the issues as well as Ms. Gabriel.  He doesn't generally get quite as wound up as she does but they are preaching from the same book.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on December 24, 2020, 06:24:43 pm
Hark!  What's this?!  An update?!

I'm back down in FL (flew back down the week before Thanksgiving, flying back up in early Jan), haven't mentioned guns the whole time since I figured it was all a lost cause.  Seems I might've been wrong....

Mama Raptor's friend & her husband came over to drop off Christmas gifts this morning, and while I wasn't party to the whole conversation (they were out in the front yard while I was inside working) and don't know what prompted this, but the husband let Mama Raptor handle his (unloaded) Mossberg MC1sc.  I ran outside when Mama Raptor walked up to the window I was in and showed the the pistol, and based on the subsequent conversation, Mama Raptor's back on board.  She doesn't like guns, but she doesn't want to get raped or murdered either.  Papa Raptor still doesn't like it, but he either gets the reality of the situation or else has resigned himself to the fact that she's going to do it regardless of what he wants (just like cable and our two dogs). The friends are going to call the instructor they like and get Mama Raptor in touch with him.  So it's probably going to happen.  I don't have a timeline, but it's probably going to happen.

Given Mama Raptor's reaction to the MC1 (fit her hand perfectly), I'm predicting she's going to want a small handgun.  I'm going to try to steer her towards something like a GLock 43X/48 or a SIG P365XL.  Thin enough for her small hands, still tall & long enough to be easy to shoot & manipulate and not have overly snappy recoil.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on December 24, 2020, 10:18:58 pm
Glad to hear it.   :thumbup1   

Mrs. c and I were at a local shop a while back and got to handle the S&W Shield EZ and she liked it - which is saying something for a confirmed wheel gunner like her.  The smaller the gun - the more important every square inch of the gun/hand interface is.  If something is off even slightly the effect tends to be magnified - especially under recoil and in the time necessary to get back on target for a second shot.  Clearing a malfunction in a smaller pistol can also be complicated by a strong recoil spring.  If the pistol's slide is hard to rack at the range its going to be hard to get it back in operation when something gets sideways.   :hmm

The smallest of the 9mm's can all exhibit one or more of those characteristics so be aware of it going in.   My smallest 9mm is a handful in a rapid fire drill and while I can usually manage it, my times invariably reflect the ongoing struggle.   Full snort ammo is what it is and physics is not optional.   

With any luck the instructor MR gets in contact with is the kind who understands all this and has solid, real world answers to her questions and can give her a realistic set of options going forward. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on January 01, 2021, 01:19:30 pm
My prediction was off: briefly spoke with Mama Raptor, and while she liked the feel of the MC1, she thinks that a long gun is more suitable for home defense (YAY!  My advice got through!), so we'll see....
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on January 04, 2021, 12:51:57 am
 :thumbup1   Progress has been made.    :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on January 04, 2021, 11:42:06 am
For some reason, a new version of the Christmas Carol is running through my head now...

"I, in my nightcap, and Ma in her gown,
Sprang from the bed to see
what the f#$% was going down."
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on January 05, 2021, 08:46:09 pm
For some reason, a new version of the Christmas Carol is running through my head now...

"I, in my nightcap, and Ma in her gown,
Sprang from the bed to see
what the f#$% was going down."


:rotfl

And wait a minute... wouldn't that be "'Twas the Night Before Christmas?"
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: booksmart on January 05, 2021, 11:18:39 pm
You would be correct. My faux pas.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on November 13, 2021, 02:51:15 pm
Ack!  Zombie thread!  Zombie thread!

So... long time, no update.

Long story short, shortly after my last update, Mama Raptor decided that she "didn't have it in her" to shoot somebody and didn't want a gun after all, so six+ months of effort down the tubes.

Buuuuuut.... I had an interesting conversation with her today.  I remarked that I found it odd that she was perfectly okay with beating somebody with a cast-iron frying pan (which is what she's always said she'd do if someone broke it), but at the same felt she couldn't bring herself to ever shoot someone.  She replied that she "didn't want to kill anyone, just beat them up."  I responded that the overwhelming majority of gunshot wounds, especially from pistol calibers, are non-fatal, and she could easily do a lot more damage, up to and including smashing ribs and pulping organs, with that cast-iron frying pan.

There was a long, contemplative pause before Mama Raptor remarked that she "had never considered that."

So she's still not sold on guns, but I did give her some food for thought to munch on.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 13, 2021, 11:23:07 pm
In related news, I ordered a Ruger PC9 from Cabelas last night.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on November 14, 2021, 01:03:40 pm
Thanks for the update.  Sounds to me like the saga continues .  .  .   Hard to say how much interaction between MR and PR played a part in that conversation you had.   :hmm   Maybe something non-lethal she could practice with and have reasonable confidence in would be a better first step for her at this time.   How's the home security situation vis a vis perimeter lighting, cameras, locks, alarms, etc.?

That PC 9 is a nice piece.  Probably my choice as well given its magazine compatibility with a handgun I have in mind.   :thumbup1



Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 14, 2021, 07:51:25 pm
I already have an SR9 and a few magazines.    However, I also went ahead and bought some Glock magazines.  They are cheap right now, and I thought it would be cool to have some 30 rounders.   As far as I know,  nobody makes those for the SR9.   Of course that means I'll also need to buy a Glock at some point.   

I usually don't order much from Cabelas, but in this case they actually had one of the best prices I could find on the PC9.  There were a few places slightly cheaper online, but once you add in shipping and transfer fees, that's a wash.  Plus by buying gift cards at the grocery store to pay for it, I got discount points for gas.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on November 15, 2021, 09:01:16 am
I doubt Papa Raptor talked her out of it since he hasn't talked much about it at all except when the topic's come up in 3-way conversation.  Most likely, Mama Raptor started overthinking things (as she is known to do), got into her own head, and talked herself out of it.

Security-wise, the house is pretty well lit.  No cameras, I don't know about the locks, probably not great.  Doors and windows are hardened against physical impacts and probably other forcing methods as it's a new-construction house in Florida, so everything is built to withstand flying debris from hurricane-force winds.  It's in the middle of a rather nice deed-restricted development, so I'm not overly concerned with "normal" crime (though some of the neighborhoods outside the development are not nearly as nice).  My concern is more a "Kenosha" situation where a cop shoots a non-white individual and Antifa/BLM descend on the region and start burning and looting everything in sight.

EDIT TO ADD:  That and, nothing to do with self-defense, but I think she REALLY needs a hobby that actually helps her relieve stress.  She loves cooking... for other people.  And then ends up overcommitting to send meals to people and ends up even more stressed than when she started.  So... yeah.  If I could get her to the range, I think recoil therapy would do her good.

In related news, I ordered a Ruger PC9 from Cabelas last night.   

Congrats on the new boomstick!  The PC9 has been on my list, especially now that Magpul has released their Backpacker stock for it.  Not that I've any use for such a setup, I just think it looks cool.  :cool
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 15, 2021, 11:40:51 am
I'm hoping it gets to the local store before the Black Friday rush next week.   

I'll probably throw one of my spare red dots on top of it once it gets here.  The short sight radius on the stock iron sights is probably the one thing I dislike most about it.   
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: cpaspr on November 15, 2021, 11:45:45 am
I already have an SR9 and a few magazines.    However, I also went ahead and bought some Glock magazines.  They are cheap right now, and I thought it would be cool to have some 30 rounders.   As far as I know,  nobody makes those for the SR9.   <snip>   

Somewhere I saw a video where a M&P hi-cap mag (25?, 30?, 33?) could be modified to fit an SR-9.  Just requires drilling a hole in the front of the mag for the SR-9 mag catch.  Not sure if those mags are more or less expensive than the Glock mags.

Okay, I went looking.  First, there's this, where the discussion revolves around the fact that the mags are very, very similar: https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/sr9-m-p-magazine-compatibility.94889/

Then, looking more specifically for videos, I went to YT.  Rather than a link to one specific video, just bring up YT, and enter this in your YT search field for a bunch of videos: sr9 extended magazines

You can thank me later.  Or curse me, for the rapidity with which you will burn through your ammo stash.   :rotfl

Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 15, 2021, 11:55:09 am
Probably more,  I think I paid $14 for the Glock ones I bought last week.  AIM had them on sale.   

I wish the .40 version of the PC9 could take M&P magazines.  I've got a lot of those.    If it could, I'd probably buy one in that caliber too. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 24, 2021, 01:57:54 pm
Picked up the PC9 yesterday.   Seems like a great little carbine.  Sort of reminds me of my M1 Carbine or 10/22 as far as weight and feel go.   

I've got the standard version.  There is the more "tactical" one with the free float, but I didn't really care for the handguard they used and it is more expensive.  That one also comes without iron sights.   While I will be putting a red dot on this, it's nice to have the irons as a backup.   The aperture sights it comes with are adequate, but I wish the rear sight was further back.   They went with a shorter sight radius, like how it is with an AK.     

I'm right handed, but it does have reversible controls for the lefties, which is nice.  The synthetic stock has some nice grippy areas.  I'll definitely be adding in all the included spacers due to my height and arm length.    Out of the box, it should fit most people though, and it would be great as a youth model if you take all the spacers out.  Might be nice if Boyd's made some nice laminate for it,  I think that would look sharp.     

 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on November 24, 2021, 03:46:42 pm
Let us know how it works out for you.

The more I think about it, the more I'm seriously considering getting a PC9, especially now that Primary Arms has their 1x prism scope with a 9mm bdc reticle (I'm 90% sure I have a slight astigmatism, should probably get that confirmed, but either way I rarely see a solid dot when looking through a regular rds).  It'd be primarily a "fun gun" for me, though I could bring it down to FL and MAYBE, HOPEFULLY teach Mama Raptor to shoot with it.
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: coelacanth on November 24, 2021, 04:34:33 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: ksuguy on November 24, 2021, 04:44:01 pm
Let us know how it works out for you.

The more I think about it, the more I'm seriously considering getting a PC9, especially now that Primary Arms has their 1x prism scope with a 9mm bdc reticle (I'm 90% sure I have a slight astigmatism, should probably get that confirmed, but either way I rarely see a solid dot when looking through a regular rds).  It'd be primarily a "fun gun" for me, though I could bring it down to FL and MAYBE, HOPEFULLY teach Mama Raptor to shoot with it.

The standard model is also a bit more traditional and less likely to scare your mom.  While it would be nice to have something with a rail system and folding stock, I just think the PC9 looks kind of goofy like that.  I'd probably be better off just building a 9mm AR if I wanted to get something a little more tacticool.  It's nice that primary arms has an optic with a BDC.  I'll probably just go with a standard dot though.  I've got an extra Holosun, Vortex, and Sig Romeo sitting around. 
Title: Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
Post by: Raptor on November 24, 2021, 07:34:02 pm
I agree, the PC9 looks goofy with the free-float M-LOK tubes.  And I already have 2 ARs, so I'm set as far as tactical/tacticool goes.

99% of my shooting is at 25 yards or less (no public outdoor ranges near me, and the clubs all have years-long waiting lists) so I don't really need a BDC.  I'm interested in the SLx1 because it's a prism scope.  But if I ever have the opportunity to push it out to 50-plus yards, the BDC will be a nice feature to have.