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Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations?  (Read 18921 times)

coelacanth

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Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2020, 05:50:27 pm »
Well, poop.  Sorry for her discomfort and inconvenience.  We're still hoping for a miraculous recovery.   :thumbup1
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #51 on: July 04, 2020, 09:30:35 pm »
    Well, poop.  Sorry for her discomfort and inconvenience.  We're still hoping for a miraculous recovery.   :thumbup1

    Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

    And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).
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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #52 on: July 04, 2020, 09:59:56 pm »
    I really like the Rossi 92 I bought for the wife.  I did have it sent to a Crusader Weaponry and "slicked up".  Only issue we have had with it is the bead won't stay in the front site blade.  Some people have issues with the stock buckhorn rear sites.  Solid rifle at a reasonable price even though it benefit from a bit of work. 
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #53 on: July 04, 2020, 10:27:04 pm »
    Thanks much.  I think the exam is more for her piece of mind than anything else: she just wants to know for certain if it really is broken so she can either stop worrying about it and get on with her life if it isn't, or take steps to start her recovery (i.e. keep it in a sling, like last time) if it is.

    And I just heard back from her on the lever guns: she likes the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" much more than the semiautos (or so I gathered from her response, seems much more enthusiastic than when I suggested the PCCs) and she knows that Papa Raptor will be much more amenable to the price of a Rossi R92!  Though I did say that the Marlin 1894C would be my first choice (suggested the Marlin, Rossi, Winchester '92 & '73 and clones thereof, and the new Henry side-loader).

    I've handled and shot a couple of the Henry rifles - both rim fires - and they appear to be well made and reliable.  No experience with the center fire guns but my experience with the rim fire rifles is encouraging.

    The Rossi '92's are OK but they could stand some slicking up and that goofy safety they have on top of the bolt is weak IMO.  They're good basic rifles but a little rough - many are in operation in the cowboy action world and have been extensively worked over.  They are frequently selected over a modern American rifle because that safety is easy to remove and the side(s) of the receiver aren't marred by a crossbolt design. 

    My own rifles are Winchesters and Marlins.  Not necessarily better for your application - just different.  Marlins are easier to take down and clean but run a bit heavier and aren't as lively in the hand as a Winchester IMO.  They do seem to work slicker over time and some prefer the stock shape on the Marlin over the straighter, plain vanilla Winchesters.  For a modern rifle in a self defense scenario I would prefer no safety except for the half cock notch on the hammer but for MR & PR I think the crossbolt design makes sense given their novice gun handling skills.   :hmm

    Sometimes simple is good.  If the idea of a "cowboy style rifle" is appealing it may be easier to learn and get practiced with than something more complex and intimidating.  I have hunted and fished and camped all over Arizona and much of the southwest for years armed with a lever action rifle and usually a double action revolver as back-up.  At no time have I felt poorly armed.  For many years my "in the tent, in the sleeping bag" gun(s) have been a side by side 12 gauge hammerless "coach gun" with the barrels shortened to just over minimum legal length loaded with heavy buck shot and a S&W Model of 1989 625 running .45 Auto Rims and stout loads of hard cast lead.   I don't always have unauthorized guests snuffling around the camp site but when I do those are comforting things to have in hand.   :cool   

    They wouldn't be my first choice if I knew I was going to be involved in a running gun battle or a home invasion scenario with a half dozen attackers but I am well practiced with them and prepared to give a good account of myself where I decide to make contact.  Just my $.02 worth. :coffee
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #54 on: July 05, 2020, 12:34:20 pm »
    They wouldn't be my first choice if I knew I was going to be involved in a running gun battle or a home invasion scenario with a half dozen attackers but I am well practiced with them and prepared to give a good account of myself where I decide to make contact.  Just my $.02 worth. :coffee

    Oh I absolutely agree, and have made clear that the semi-auto PCC is the better platform for home defense -- with the Scorpion remaining my #1 recommendation -- and that I'm only suggesting lever-actions since all things semi-auto have turned into unobtainium.  But it's better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit, and if Mama & Papa Raptor are more open to buying a lever gun vs. a semi-auto, that's cool.  At least they'll have something.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #55 on: July 05, 2020, 01:07:03 pm »
    Agreed.  Comfort counts for a lot in stressful times and stressful situations and, as you say, whatever they decide on is better than what they have now.   :thumbup1

    Another choice that may be worthy of consideration is a youth sized 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun.  Something like Mossberg's SA 20 Youth Bantam is small enough and light enough to be used indoors and the recoil is roughly half that of one of the bigger 12 gauge guns.  If you've not seen what a 20 can do on the receiving end - let's just say it shades everything we've discussed so far.   If time is really short and the first shot has to count, there is little else that says "FOAD" with as much emphasis as the shotgun.  And, like the side gate loaded lever actions they can have the magazine topped up without removing the gun from the shoulder if necessary.    :hmm   

    I'm not really trying to talk MR and PR into three gun competition territory here but those reloading drills can be taught and practiced regularly with dummy ammunition until proficiency is achieved.  It will also pay dividends when range day comes in the form of reduced times for reloading and subsequent target acquisition. 

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #56 on: July 05, 2020, 01:30:03 pm »
    I wish I'd known that the SA-20 was still being imported (could've sworn it had been discontinued  :facepalm) and that the Youth Bantam model existed before I started making recommendations to The Parents Raptor.  The LOP is short enough that Mama Raptor probably wouldn't have any problems, and a load of #2 or #3 buck (even a 2.75" 'low recoil' load) would be orders of magnitude more effective than a 9mm or .357 hollowpoint at carbine velocities.

    That said, I doubt Mama Raptor would go from it.  She's not at all comfortable with the idea of a gun that kicks hard, and in her mind shotgun = kicks really hard.  That's partly my fault, I'm afraid, some years back she expressed casual interest in wanting to at least shoot a shotgun (I believe she said something to the effect of, "when we go to the range, I want to try a shotgun.  That sounds like fun) and I dissuaded her away from it by telling her that shotguns "thump really hard."  In my defense, the range were we would've gone rented shotguns, but only 12-gauges and you could only use buckshot or slugs (indoor range). They had a semiauto Remington, but even that would've been too much for her on her first time.

    Side note: am I a horrible person for wanting to try to convince Mama Raptor that if they get a lever gun, then they'll be required by law and tradition to also get a matching six-shooter to go with it?  ;)
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #57 on: July 05, 2020, 03:46:19 pm »
    Not at all.  :cool    If you recall I was the one who ventured a suggestion along those lines previously.   :whistle   An awful lot of people learned to shoot with a wheel gun - whether single action or double action.  Good shooting habits from those early experiences are an important stepping stone when the shooter decides to upgrade to a pistol.   

    I think my favorite home defense load for buckshot in the 20 gauge is the 2 3/4" shell with one of the smaller sizes of buck shot - #1, #2, #3, or even #4 if that is all that's available.  All will give adequate penetration in a self defense scenario. 

    Even the buck shot rounds have considerably less recoil than the 12 gauge and when fired in a semi-auto the gas action soaks up some of that as well.  Still, they are going to kick more than a pistol caliber carbine or a lever action rifle in .38/.357 mag.  Maybe the rifle first and work up to the shotgun later?  :hmm 
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #58 on: July 05, 2020, 07:47:27 pm »
    Yeah, I told her she was pretty much legally required to get an Old West Six-Shooter to go along with a Cowboy Rifle.  She didn't find the joke humorous.  Oh well.  :shrug

    If The Parents Raptor ultimately decide that they don't hate shooting, get comfortable with it, and perhaps even maybe actually enjoy going to the range on a regular basis, I'll float the idea of upgrading/supplementing their arsenal with a 20-gauge at some point in the not-particularly-near future.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #59 on: July 05, 2020, 11:20:35 pm »
    Well, for what its worth, none other than the folks at the illustrious "Gunsite Academy" offer a "Defensive Lever Gun and Single Action Revolver" class that runs 5 days and is apparently very comprehensive.  So, its not just us who think its a viable option for self defense.   :thumbup1
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #60 on: July 06, 2020, 12:08:03 pm »
    Mama Raptor went and got X-Rayed this morning, and hallelujah, no broken bones!

    EDIT: Looks mainly like some bad bruising, possibly a very minor tear in her rotatory cuff (nowhere near bad enough to require surgery) or (more likely) the bursa sac in the shoulder collapsed due to the nature of the impact and will take some some time to re-fill.

    She's on heavy restriction: no lifting, no pulling or pushing, can't put weight on it or carry any weight with it.  But still the best possible outcome, all things considered.
    « Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 12:42:45 pm by Raptor »
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    booksmart

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #61 on: July 06, 2020, 04:26:40 pm »
    Glad to hear.  Here's to a speedy recovery!

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #62 on: July 06, 2020, 07:38:01 pm »
    Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #63 on: July 06, 2020, 11:27:31 pm »
    Yes, glad to hear that MR's situation is not more serious.  Range of motion type of movement(s) helped my Dad some years back when trying to recuperate from a similar injury.  Has the doctor recommended any physical therapy for her?   :hmm

    Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


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    That load is a good one.  I fired some through my old Browning Auto 5 a while back and it ran like a champ.  I think Rio also loads a shell with #1 buck shot but I haven't seen any for a while.  I'd love to see a home defense specific model of that SA 20 Youth Bantam for the ladies and other smaller framed shooters.  If there is one on the Mossberg site I must have missed it.  I like my 930 SPX but its a big, heavy bastage and a little unwieldy in some spots inside the house. 
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #64 on: July 07, 2020, 10:53:19 am »
    Yes, glad to hear that MR's situation is not more serious.  Range of motion type of movement(s) helped my Dad some years back when trying to recuperate from a similar injury.  Has the doctor recommended any physical therapy for her?   :hmm

    I believe so.  She saw/is seeing the same orthopedic specialist that worked with Papa Raptor when he did something to his shoulder last year that severely restricted his range off motion (we think it was a pinched nerve) he's something like 95%+ recovered, and I believe Mama Raptor said that he told her to perform a set of exercises to speed up her recuperation.
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    cpaspr

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #65 on: July 07, 2020, 02:12:52 pm »
    Not meaning to digress from Raptor's thread, but this confuses me.  It implies (from the wording) that the chamber is loaded with the safety on, or that the chamber is empty with the safety off.  But it could randomly be either one.   :shrug 

    If instead you meant "take the safety off and rack the slide", then I have to ask why have the safety in the on position on an empty chamber?  If it's empty, the safety in the on position is not needed.  Once a shell goes in the chamber, in the house, is no time to be screwing around with the safety, because there is apparently a credible threat that may need shooting in the very immediate future.

    Good to hear no broken bones. Mossberg also does an SA 20 gauge built along the lines of the 930 SPX I believe. That action has very little recoil if I remember correctly. Our home defense shotguns are both 20 gauge because my wife is smaller and hates 12 gauge recoil. I use Federal Defense #3 buckshot. I like it because all she has to do is take the safety off or rack it one time. One motion to remember when adrenaline is up. Simple is good.


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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #66 on: July 07, 2020, 02:44:26 pm »
    IIRC, there are some single- and double-barrel shotguns that automatically re-engage the safety every time the action is opened.
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    cpaspr

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #67 on: July 08, 2020, 08:37:10 pm »
    IIRC, there are some single- and double-barrel shotguns that automatically re-engage the safety every time the action is opened.

    Ahh.  I assumed (and we all know what havoc that can entail) that he was referring to semi-autos for both shotguns.  A single- or double-barrel gun with chambers loaded and safety on for one of them and a semi-auto with an empty chamber and safety off for the other would fit the original parameters.
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #68 on: July 14, 2020, 01:42:08 pm »
    Just a quick update:  Mama is well on the road to recovery.  And she let me know that "if it were just her, she'd have bought it already."  Which means that, as I suspected, Papa Raptor still needs to be convinced.

    That's gonna take some work.  And probably more than one stiff drink.

    I told Mama Raptor that she should just do what she did back when we finally got cable: get it and then tell Papa Raptor after it's too late for him to do anything about it (seriously, he only figured out we were getting cable when he came home from work for lunch and asked why we were cleaning the family room and Little Brother and I, quite innocently, let slip that the cable guy was coming to install our connection).
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #69 on: July 14, 2020, 10:46:40 pm »
    Well, some of us have only recently been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the twenty first century.  I'm not naming names but we know who we are .  .  .  wait .  .  .   :eh .  .  .   :cool

    Glad MR is on the mend and feeling up to a challenge and with any luck PR will come around to the idea and be helpful.   :thumbup1
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #70 on: July 25, 2020, 04:55:41 pm »
    Another quick update: Mama Raptor is completely healed.  No pain, full strength and range of motion have returned.  So now I can start nagging her again!

    Unfortunately, it sounds like Florida is back on tight COVID restrictions, so range trips are no-go.... though how long that lasts is up in the air seeing as how FL Dept of Health just got caught red-handed falsifying COVID test results: they were sending notifications to people who hadn't been tested that their results had come back positive and they were infected with COVID.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #71 on: July 25, 2020, 07:52:35 pm »
    Glad she's back to full strength and orneriness.   :cool    The old saying used to be: "Never attribute anything to malice that's adequately explained by stupidity." but the modern corollary to that adds " .  .  . or politics." to the original version.   :facepalm
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #72 on: July 25, 2020, 07:58:45 pm »
    She's not ornery.... unless she hasn't had her morning coffee.

    And it's not just that they hadn't been tested: these were people who'd gone to the new, free DeptHealth drive-in testing centers, filled out the paperwork for the test, gotten in line for the tests.... which were 2-3 hours long, sitting in their cars, in the blazing Florida sun, in the middle of July, so they decided, "nope, we'll go to the place where you pay and are in and out in fifteen minutes," told the people running the test that they were leaving, and driven away.  One person, sure, stupidity could explain that.  Literally dozens across the entire state?  No, that was pure, malicious politics.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #73 on: July 25, 2020, 08:09:23 pm »
    Just follow the money.  City of Phoenix is sitting on close to $300 million dollars in federal funds allocated to Covid 19 relief and so far they've spent less than a million of it on local testing and just over a million on local art projects to support the mayor's voting base.   :banghead
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #74 on: July 25, 2020, 09:24:20 pm »
    Pretty sure it's politics.  FL Gov's a libertarianesque Republican who's been fairly hands-off in his response to Covidpocalypse.  The Dems despise him, because the people love him and save for the Dem hotspots like Tampa and Miami, COVID infection rates were pretty low in the state.  Until DeptHealth started seriously cooking the numbers, of course.
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