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Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations?  (Read 18916 times)

ksuguy

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Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2020, 04:13:07 pm »
I've got a dedicated .22LR upper for one of mine (well actually a whole rifle since I bought a lower to go with it),  but I never could get the damn thing to run reliably.   Always fails to go back into battery.   
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #126 on: September 09, 2020, 11:29:10 pm »
    I am glad to hear that they are getting input from other sources than just you.  Don't get me wrong - I like you.  I'm sure your parents like you.  If your parents are anything like mine and you told them the sky was blue today they would go outside and do a quick check just to make sure.   :facepalm

    You might want to look into training aids that don't require a range trip to get in some gun handling.  I think everybody has a few snap caps around but there is a whole world of stuff out there that can improve skills without burning gunpowder.  It would help you stay sharp and maybe help MR to gain some confidence and skill as well as a little muscle memory.  Who knows, if PR gets used to seeing his wife practicing he might have to concede defeat and get with the program.   :cool

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #127 on: September 09, 2020, 11:47:41 pm »
    I am glad to hear that they are getting input from other sources than just you.  Don't get me wrong - I like you.  I'm sure your parents like you.  If your parents are anything like mine and you told them the sky was blue today they would go outside and do a quick check just to make sure.   :facepalm

    You might want to look into training aids that don't require a range trip to get in some gun handling.  I think everybody has a few snap caps around but there is a whole world of stuff out there that can improve skills without burning gunpowder.  It would help you stay sharp and maybe help MR to gain some confidence and skill as well as a little muscle memory.  Who knows, if PR gets used to seeing his wife practicing he might have to concede defeat and get with the program.   :cool



    LOL!  No, I get you: sometimes it feels like my parents think I'm still a loudmouth idiot teenager who doesn't know a bag of beans about anything.

    I'll float the idea of snap caps, etc.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #128 on: September 10, 2020, 05:03:46 pm »
    Quick update:

    Was running errands with Mama Raptor earlier when an ad came on the radio for a nearby gun show this weekend.  As a joke, I asked Mama Raptor if she'd like to go.  She said sure, but she's not comfortable buying there.  But it might be a good opportunity to at least handle a few things, get an idea for what she likes or doesn't like.  It's schedule-permitting (we have a few things going on over the weekend already), but... we'll see.  :shrug

    Also, I'm extending my stay for at least a few days (made it to the final round of the hiring process for a job application, and the last interview is scheduled for the same day I'd be flying home), and I found a pretty decent gun shop/range down here, so we may end up going there.  Again, nothing definite, but we'll see.  EDIT: Only staying down another two days, so odds are if we go to the range, it'll probably be up north.
    « Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 05:33:17 pm by Raptor »
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #129 on: September 10, 2020, 11:00:25 pm »
    Are they doing gun shows there yet?    I don't think they have had one here this year.  They canceled the big one in March since things were just kicking off with the public gathering limits.

    I think the one scheduled for October is on.  I won't be going to it though.  I'll probably be out of town, and even if I wasn't, I don't like the idea of being in a super crowded building.   Especially since there probably won't be anything to buy since everything has been snapped up by panic buyers in the past 6 months.     
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #130 on: September 11, 2020, 12:07:36 am »
    They just announced a couple here in the Phoenix metro area.   I'm sure there will be some overpriced product for those who attend and probably a few safe queens drug out and shined up on the tables. 

    I think the gun show idea for MR is probably a good one.  No pressure on her to buy anything there - just look around and handle a couple of things as you say.   Might even get a new idea or two.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #131 on: September 11, 2020, 11:36:15 am »
    I'd be a little hesitant if I hadn't gone to the show first to see what they were like in that area.   You don't want her scared off by mall ninjas or douchebags selling Nazi memorabilia.   
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #132 on: September 11, 2020, 06:13:38 pm »
    I'd be a little hesitant if I hadn't gone to the show first to see what they were like in that area.   You don't want her scared off by mall ninjas or douchebags selling Nazi memorabilia.   

    I did tell her that running into those characters is a distinct possibility, and she was fully expecting it to be full of rednecks (this is Florida, after all) even before I mentioned them.  Still open to going, though she still hasn't decided if she's going to go or not go.  That's due to her being concerned with being in a large crowd (thank you COVID) more than anything else.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #133 on: September 12, 2020, 01:58:16 pm »
    So, somebody needs to check the seventh seal: not only did Mama Raptor and I go to the show, but Papa Raptor came with us!  Willingly!

    The show itself was rather small (120-ish tables, we saw the whole thing in about a half hour, tops) and disappointing: very limited selection, mostly reeeeaaaaaly old used rifles, most of which were in poor shape, and imported Turkish shotguns.  Decent, though limited, selection of handguns (including a brand-new CZ-97.  Too bad I'm not a FL resident  :'( ).  Only one dude selling Nazi memorabilia, but he was an older gentleman who looked to be selling off a historical collection rather than a skinhead trying to fund and recruit for the movement.

    We didn't buy anything, but I did point out some of the long guns that I'd recommended to Mama Raptor.   She was glad to be able to get a clear picture of what I've suggested, but she's a bit put-off by how "big" the rifles and shotguns are, so I think she may end up going with a handgun of some sort.  She also says that if/when she buys, it's going to be at a gun shop vs. a gun show.

    Papa Raptor... hard to read.  He didn't hate it (because he'd have made it quite clear if he did), but I doubt he'd ever go to another one.  He said it was "interesting" and that he got to "experience a culture that he normally wouldn't have taken part in."

    EDIT: and we ran into one of Mama Raptor's friends at the show (and the friend's mom, who's 94 and still up and at it, God bless her!).  Friend was looking for a concealed carry piece and had gotten so much contradictory advice that she didn't know what to do.   I took a look at the list of guns that had been recommended to her (S&W Airweight Centennial, SIG P238, and S&W Shield 9mm EZ), explained the pros and cons of each and my personal suggestions (either the SIG or the Shield, and don't touch the snubbie with a 10-foot pole!) and suggested she find a range that rented guns to try them out.  Didn't offer to take her myself because 1) I don't know her and 2) I'm not sure if I'd be able to fit in a range trip before I fly home on Wednesday).
    « Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:25:58 pm by Raptor »
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    cpaspr

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #134 on: September 12, 2020, 02:31:06 pm »
    From what you've told us, PR may be realizing that A) MR is going to do what she's going to do, whether he likes it or not, and/or B) it really is getting sketchy out there and if he truly loves your mother he needs to try and protect her, whether that impinges on his comfort zone or not.

    Glad to hear all of the above.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #135 on: September 12, 2020, 03:27:52 pm »
    Agreed on all counts.   :thumbup1   

    As we have said before, youth model long guns may be the way to go.  Long guns because of terminal ballistics performance and better hit probability on targets beyond conversational distance.  They don't have to be huge and heavy either. 

    A twenty gauge shotgun is manageable by nearly anyone if the stock fits properly.  The Remington 870 youth model is a joy to shoot and operates pretty slickly once broken in.  A pistol caliber carbine in a lever gun can be either a .410 gauge shotgun or any of the various pistol calibers but usually .38 sp/ .357 mag.   Any of those would put any pistol MR and PR could handle easily to shame in the effect on target. 

    Marlin made youth models for many years in the .30-30 Winchester and kids have gone afield for years toting those guns in search of their first deer.  Not a bad choice IMO.  Reduced recoil loadings are available for the guns from several manufacturers. 

    Even something as ubiquitous as the Ruger 10/22 or the Marlin model 60 are readily available and the rim fire ammo still shows up on the shelves here of late.  A .22 long rifle would not be my first choice as a home defense weapon but it beats the hell out of harsh language.   :cool

    They are easy to feed and maintain and the lack of recoil makes practicing proper technique easier for teaching new shooters how its done - just as it has for generations of us.   Who among you would willingly face a skilled marksman armed with a semi-automatic .22 LR if you were intent on invading his space?  Not me.   :coffee

    As for pistols, a gun that is sometimes overlooked is the Walther PK 380.  They aren't flawless by any means and the take-down is kind of cumbersome compared to many others in its class but in terms of ergonomics they are hard to beat.  A gun that fits you and feels good in the hand is usually easier to hit with in my experience.  If you can live with its flaws it might be one to consider. 

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #136 on: September 12, 2020, 03:53:35 pm »
    I think once Mama Raptor actually handles a gun (we just looked today, didn't touch anything), then her concerns with the size and weight will probably go away.  I remember having the same reaction at my first gun show - guns, especially long guns, were much larger than I'd thought they'd be.

    coelacanth, your suggestions line up pretty closely with the ones I made to Mama Raptor, particularly regarding youth-size shotguns (though I suggested the Mossberg 500 over the Remington), and for the same reasons.  A .22LR rifle is pretty much at the bottom of the list, but like you said, it's better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit.  I confess that I've put more emphasis on long guns vs. handguns since Mama Raptor isn't interested in getting a Concealed Carry Permit, and IMO a long gun is better for home defense, and therefore haven't recommended any specific handguns other than "take a pistol class and then rent a few different handguns at the range and see what you like."

    I'm not really keen on the PK380 since it's based a bit too closely on the P22 for my liking (and those had a whole host of issues IIRC), but I would recommend something like the CCP 380, or the SIG P238 or either of the S&W Shield EZ models.  Though if she wanted something for home defense vs concealled carry, I'd probably suggest something larger and with a correspondingly higher magazine capacity, like the Glock 19 or HK VP9 or SIG P320.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #137 on: September 12, 2020, 04:31:46 pm »
    Yes, a lot depends on her impression(s) from handling and shooting the first time or two.  Sometimes things emerge that need to be addressed that were previously unknown.  I have seen shooters just learning that assumed they were right handed because they did everything else right handed but ended up being left handed shooters because it worked better for them.  Frequently that has to do with a cross dominance situation when sighting but other times its a strength, dexterity, balance issue. 

    Things she and PR can do now is get equipped with some powerful illumination gear that can light up the property from one end to the other, get a couple of personal walkie-talkie type radios that aren't dependent on cell service and work out a plan for checking on things that go bump in the night. Basic preparedness stuff but there are so many who haven't actually done it.   :shrug   If they have - good on them - but it needs doing so I mentioned it. 

    The Mossberg 500 and the Maverick can be outfitted with a loading block that allows them to run the short little 1 3/4" 12 gauge shells which have very little recoil comparatively speaking.  I'll see if I can find the link for that doohickey and the test review of it.  Might be something to look into as 12 gauge guns are way more plentiful than anything else.   :hmm
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #138 on: September 12, 2020, 05:05:47 pm »
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #139 on: September 13, 2020, 01:52:27 pm »
    Eh.... the minishells and Omniclip are a great idea, don't get me wrong (and I'll definitely go that route myself if I do succumb to my desire to buy and SBS a Shockwave), but I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible for Mama Raptor.  Her needing to buy "special" ammo, especially hard-to-find stuff that most shops don't stock, would just complicate and confuse things to the point where she'd probably throw up her hands and decide she was D-O-N-E DONE! with the whole gun thing.

    They have basic preparedness pretty well in hand: they have a whole walk-in closet full of basic supplies (they call it the "Costco Closet") in case of bad weather and/or hurricane season.  The house and property are small enough that powerful lights and two-way radios are probably unnecessary.  The only thing they don't have are corded phones or a true landline (they do have cordless handsets on a VOIP carrier).  I've tried prevailing upon them to get both (if internet goes down, they lose all phones), but since their VOIP is cheaper than a landline, Papa Raptor says it's just fine.   :banghead
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #140 on: September 13, 2020, 04:15:03 pm »
    Yup.  Old habits are hard to break and we have become accustomed to having electric power and communications at our fingertips 24/7/365.  I think the powerful light(s) are still a really good idea and also some form of two way radio comms not dependent on the internet or cell service. 

    A personal anecdote, if I may, to illustrate the point:  Last year we experienced significant roof damage during a storm and the repair was delayed for nine days because we weren't the only ones damaged and the roofing companies were overbooked even for covered insurance claims.  So, there's me up on the roof laying down plastic tarps and trying to weight them down to keep them in place during subsequent stormy weather.  Have you ever noticed how many storms happen during the hours of darkness? 

    The evening after laying down the tarps we had a major line of thunderstorms move through which knocked out the power for a couple of hours in our area.  My main trouble light is 800 lumens and throws a beam you could read by about a hundred yards so its the go to light for stuff like that.  I was able to determine - from the ground - that my tarp weighting was holding fast and we didn't need to worry about additional damage.  Cell phones were out due to damage to a couple of cell towers in the area and my cheap a&& Radio Shack walkie talkies I got to play around with the grand kids were pressed into service.  Mrs. c and I were able to communicate quite well over about 300 yards of suburban neighborhood terrain except for a little cross-talk with a neighbor who was using a similar set-up.  The ability to cut through the darkness of a power outage during a storm and communicate without having to worry about cell service ( our ISP was spotty for a couple of days afterward also  :facepalm ) was quite comforting and could be a game changer in some situations.   We just recently used the walkie talkies to coordinate plumbing repair activity where she was inside the house monitoring the spot of the leak and I was out front with the curb key turning the main water valve on - and needing to know if I should quickly turn it off again. 

    I guess those things aren't absolutely necessary in most situations but they sure have come in handy for us and they would be the go-to tools in a another emergency. 

    Can't say I disagree with your thinking on the mini-shells but they have been fairly available here and my thought was to give the best terminal performance with a manageable amount of recoil.  Reliability with the OpSol clip has been good in my Mossberg Maverick 88 using both the Champion shells and the Federal stuff.  If you begin to get the idea I am fond of the shotgun for home defense I must plead guilty as charged.  :cool 
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #141 on: September 13, 2020, 06:15:37 pm »
    Fortunately, they do still have a generator (I think: I'm 99% sure they brought it with them when they retired down here, but don't quote me on that).  I'll bring up emergency comms at some point in the not-too-distant future, but I don't want to push things: I've come dangerously close to wearing out my welcome (so to speak) with the gun topic over the last few months.

    I've no idea what ammo availability is like down here, but up in The Burgh, only two shops I know of stock the mini-shells, and they don't get them in regularly, and when they do have them in stock, they only seem to have birdshot.

    If they do end up going the shotgun route, I've suggested a Mossberg 500 Youth Bantam in 20-gauge.  And though it's far from ideal (IMO) I'd even be semi-comfortable suggesting a .410: Federal makes a 3" load with 9 pellets of #4 buckshot at 1100 fps.  That's still nothing to sneeze at.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #142 on: September 13, 2020, 06:58:16 pm »
    Agreed.  I wouldn't want to face either of those from the business end. 

    Generators are cool things to have but if its not already hooked up and ready to go it takes at least a few minutes before you are producing power.

    Ask me how I know .  .  .   :facepalm   
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #143 on: September 13, 2020, 08:28:25 pm »
    Yeah, been there, done that.  Had to help drag it out of the garage and get it hooked up many times, including after one or two bad snowstorms.

    Fortunately, Papa Raptor wired the house so that we could plug the generator directly into the house's electrical system (don't know what the technical term is) instead of having to run extension cords from the generator to whatever it was we wanted to power.  Unfortunately, he didn't do that until after at least one big storm.   :facepalm  Fortunately, the new house is wired such that he can plug the generator directly into the house grid (or whatever it's called).
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #144 on: September 13, 2020, 09:42:26 pm »
    Basically its a transfer switch added to the existing electrical service and usually has a four pin plug installed for the generator to hook into the panel.   More sophisticated systems are generally reserved for bigger stand-bye generator set-ups that come on automatically in case of a power failure.  There are some off the grid systems here in Arizona that use a combination of solar panels, battery banks and either diesel or propane powered whole house generators for times when the solar/battery array is not up to the task. 

    Its good that the new house has the wiring already installed.   :thumbup1



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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #145 on: September 13, 2020, 09:54:49 pm »
    Transfer switch!  That's the word I was looking for!

    Yeah, Papa Raptor made sure to include that particular feature when he designed the house.  They bought a vacant lot and built on it.  Papa Raptor designed it himself, and did a bang-up job if I do say so myself.  He wanted to be an architect when he was a kid, but ultimately pursued a career in finance and investor relations: Mama Raptor likes to joke that he's a "frustrated architect."
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    Kaso

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #146 on: September 14, 2020, 01:44:57 pm »
    Too much time is being spent making sure they get 'the right gun' for them.  I understand why, and it is well intentioned, but that is not the priority.

    The most important steps they can take to be ready for a riot in their neighborhood are:

     - Be 100% ready to defend themselves with lethal force.  Mentally, emotionally, psychologically, etc.

     - Have the physical fitness and learned skills necessary to be able to do so with whatever tool they choose for that task.  Whether that is a broomstick, a camp axe, or a firearm.

     - Choose a tool and commit to it.

    If they are considering a firearm, ANY firearm that they are willing to practice with will do.  A Ruger 10/22 is not what anyone here would pick, but why not?  If she is willing to take a few trips to the range and learn it, I would declare a win.  Buy her a few boxes of hot CCI rounds for Christmas.

    Conversely, if you can talk her into something more effective, so much the better.  But don't lose the momentum by trying to get just a little bit more and stalling out. A 10/22 or a Saturday night special in her safe are both wins.

    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #147 on: September 14, 2020, 01:58:28 pm »
    Too much time is being spent making sure they get 'the right gun' for them.  I understand why, and it is well intentioned, but that is not the priority.

    The most important steps they can take to be ready for a riot in their neighborhood are:

     - Be 100% ready to defend themselves with lethal force.  Mentally, emotionally, psychologically, etc.

     - Have the physical fitness and learned skills necessary to be able to do so with whatever tool they choose for that task.  Whether that is a broomstick, a camp axe, or a firearm.

     - Choose a tool and commit to it.

    If they are considering a firearm, ANY firearm that they are willing to practice with will do.  A Ruger 10/22 is not what anyone here would pick, but why not?  If she is willing to take a few trips to the range and learn it, I would declare a win.  Buy her a few boxes of hot CCI rounds for Christmas.

    Conversely, if you can talk her into something more effective, so much the better.  But don't lose the momentum by trying to get just a little bit more and stalling out. A 10/22 or a Saturday night special in her safe are both wins.

    Absolutely agreed on all counts.  And I think Mama Raptor is there mentally (Papa Raptor's still coming around): watching the riots in our old hometowns (they rioted in freaking Lancaster PA for crying out loud!  Amish country!) have really been a reality check: it's finally clicked that yes, it can happen in their neighborhood.  And Mama Raptor has a cast-iron frying pan that she says (only partly joking) is her go-to for when the rioters show up.  It's big and heavy enough to flatten skulls.  But we both agree that it won't do much good if Mr. Antifa is waaaaaaaaaay over there with a molotov cocktal.

    And I haven't been pushing them towards or away from specific platforms (aside from Shockwaves and the Taurus Judge), but I've been clear that some firearms and platforms are more effective than others, and that while a .22LR is not ideal, it will absolutely work if need be (specifically listed the 10/22 and the TCR22 in my document of recommendations, and pointed out a TCR22 at the gun show and told MR that "if you get a .22 for home defense, you should get one like this.")
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #148 on: September 14, 2020, 02:09:05 pm »
    Kaso's points are on target.  Mindset, skillset, toolset - these are the three legs supporting your defense.  There seems to be a general consensus that these "peaceful protests" are going to continue for the foreseeable future.  That forces many of us to consider what was previously unthinkable. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #149 on: September 16, 2020, 01:10:09 pm »
    We're in for trouble no matter which way the election goes.  Trump wins, we get more riots.   Biden wins,  the democrats go full on communist.   One silver lining is that they have alienated law enforcement so much,  they might have trouble finding people to enforce all their bulls___.     
    Kansas

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