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Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations?  (Read 18920 times)

coelacanth

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Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2020, 12:45:01 am »
You have to put it in the proper context.  That involves your knowledge and ability to communicate with them as only you can and also the idea that the gun is not the whole thing or even the most important part. 

An analogy can be made to a fire extinguisher or a jack and a spare tire in the trunk of the car.  Those things are tools that help you deal with the problem at hand - a fire or a flat tire - but by themselves are just another inert object.   Without the knowledge and the skill to use those tools you won't be effective at putting out the fire or changing your own damaged tire.  There are many examples of the same type of thing but those two are familiar enough that most folks can relate to them. 

What they have to understand is that having the proper mind set and the proper skill set is often the key to avoiding the necessity of using the tools in the first place.  Fire safety involves not storing flammable materials in an unsafe manner and having smoke alarms installed to alert you that a fire is burning and once you know that you can then employ the fire extinguisher as needed. 

Tire maintenance involves inspecting the tires often, keeping them rotated and balanced and properly inflated before going on the highway.  Knowing what to look for and taking care of things before you hit the road may keep you from having to change a tire on the side of the road. 

Personal safety involving the use of deadly force is really no different in that you have to learn to be aware of your surroundings and the potential threats at all times.  It takes considerable time and effort to change the habits of a lifetime and acknowledge things just aren't the same way they used to be.  If you are to have any chance of effectively defending yourself or your loved ones in the event of an attack you must be able to recognize a threat and be equipped with the tools and the skills necessary to neutralize it. 

The gun is the last resort just as the fire extinguisher and the jack and spare are the last resort.  In the case of the fire extinguisher the smoke alarm is your first line of defense - particularly when you're sleeping.  In the case of going armed your awareness - or in the case of MR & PR their combined awareness is that first line of defense and good home security equipment and measures are there to stand guard while you are sleeping.  Nothing is foolproof but you try to give yourself the best chance you can to deal with whatever problems you may have to face. 

Honestly, most people have more trouble with the change in habits and learning to practice situational awareness than they do learning how to shoot the gun.  Motor skills and muscle memory can be practiced easier than changing the way you've thought about things for years.  On the plus side is the fact that they have agreed that such things are  necessary. 
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    Kaso

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #101 on: August 09, 2020, 08:51:04 pm »
    Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it."  On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

    What say y'all?  Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?
    I would say to just tell them in person, but know this: The point in question is THE most important part of owning any tool for self defense.  If it is not understood, whether willingly or by accident, it would be better for one to accept a 'defenseless' state... because then they would know what they are.

    Mindset > Skillset > Toolset

    You have been asking about which tool is best, (and to be fair, it is a gun board) but from reading the thread I am not sure they have their mindset in order.  They are open to buying a gun, which is a major step, so I think they can be nudged the rest of the way in time.

    To that end, If it were my parents, I would let Mama Raptor get her 'cowboy gun.'  Why?  It will ease both her and your father more gently into gun ownership, and cause them to accept their new gun as a part of their household security plan, not the talisman that you will warn them against.  And if shooting it is fun for her (and him - what boy growing up in the 50s-60s didn't want to be the Lone Ranger or the Rifleman?) she will be inclined to do it.  She will not be self conscious of people she knows 'seeing her' with her Assault Machine Gun. 

    Add to that, a lever gun is easily kept in 'cruiser-ready condition' inside the safe, which is how I would recommend most people keep most defensive guns in safes. 

    A .357 rifle's recoil will be minimal, a major concern with how often she will want to shoot.  Ammo capacity is sufficient for the intended task of keeping BLM and the like 'off their lawn,' and if it comes down to dropping the hammer, we are talking power levels sufficient for hunting whitetail.  Ammo cost will never be less than ~$.50/rd for hollowpoints, but will also be more stable than 5.56, so I call a wash. 

    Ultimately, it comes down to what they will be comfortable with, and as your father is a long time anti-gunner hoplophobe, I do not think forcing or coercing an AR onto them will be productive.

    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #102 on: August 09, 2020, 10:07:00 pm »
    Just to be clear, I am not forcing or coercing an AR onto them: I just made the offer in case we can't find anything suitable while I'm down there, and I was quite clear that it's just an option, nothing more, and that they can say "no" if they want to.  If Mama Raptor wants an "Annie Oakley gun," and we find a lever-action rifle in .357 or .44 Mag (preferably the former), I'll be the first one to tell her to buy it.

    Mama Raptor's main hangups with the AR seem to be that it's "heavy" (she did briefly handle mine to help me out with a Photoshop project for my Visual Media class -- I'll have to see if I can find that picture -- but it probably only weighs about 7.5 lbs) and "complicated," and to be fair all the levers and switches and buttons and doodads can seem frighteningly complex to someone who has no idea what any of it does, but a modicum of training should solve that problem.

    And honestly, I don't really know where Papa Raptor is on the whole gun thing: all of my communication on the subject has been with Mama Raptor, but talking to my father about anything -- or heck, just talking with him in general -- is more often than not like trying to converse with a brick wall.  The vibe I'm getting from Mama Raptor is that he's not keen on the idea, but he recognizes the fact that the world's going to heck in a handbasket and it's probably a good idea to have one in the house, and he's not gonna stop Mama Raptor from getting one if she wants one. Probably because he knows from past history -- namely two dogs and one cable subscription -- that if she wants one, there's not a darn thing he can do to stop it.  Just don't expect him to ever touch it or learn how to use it.  Though again, if history is any indication, I'm pretty optimistic that Dad will come around sooner rather than later.

    (and him - what boy growing up in the 50s-60s didn't want to be the Lone Ranger or the Rifleman?)

    Yeah... probably not.  Because knowing my paternal grandmother, I'm fairly certain that both of those shows were banned in my father's house when he was a kid because they were "violent".  Heck, I know for a fact that the Adam West Batman show was verboten because Batman & Robin would punch and kick people (even if you never actually saw anyone get hit thanks to the "BAM" "BIFF!" "OOF!" and "SOCKAPOW!" title cards).  Grandma is... let's just say she's an interesting character, and the reason why Papa Raptor and my one uncle are the way they are, and leave it at that. (Seriously, who the heck describes their kid as being "a perfectly satisfactory child" in their presence, on their birthday!?)

    Though Mom and Dad both readily recognize the utter hypocrisy and stupidity about not being allowed to watch obviously-fake violence but being encouraged to watch the evening news where they could and did see brilliant technicolor footage of real people getting killed over in Vietnam, complete with commentary by Walter Cronkite.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #103 on: August 09, 2020, 10:59:31 pm »
    Wow.   :shocked   An interesting glimpse into your life and that of your parents.  Even if PR has no interest in owning or handling the gun(s) in his own house perhaps he can be persuaded that two pairs of eyes and ears are better than one when it comes to keeping he and MR safe. 

    Kaso's makes some good points - particularly with regard to using MR's "cowboy gun" to ease them into the idea of actually owning a gun and learning to handle it.   I had not even considered the idea that someone might feel "self conscious" about owning a gun but after having it explained to me it makes sense.   :facepalm   

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #104 on: August 10, 2020, 09:46:01 am »
    You know, the whole "self-conscious about owning a gun thing" didn't even occur to me.  And I'm kicking myself because it absolutely should have!

    I was born and raised in a very anti-gun area (I think I used to refer to it as "Liberal Soccer Mom Central") where if people found out you owned guns, you were immediately regarded as either a terrorist, a wannabe mass-murderer just waiting for an excuse to snap and start shooting people, or both.  Even by people who'd known you for years and years before they found out you were a gun owner.  To the point where most of my coworkers thought I was the most boring person on the planet since I told them that I stayed at home and read books on my days off since I didn't dare tell them that I usually spent them at the pistol range.

    My current AO is much different: when most of my friends and coworkers found out I own guns, the conversation immediately shifted to "What do you have?!" or "Where do you shoot?!"  Before COVIDpocalypse hit and I got laid off, there were talks at my workplace of trying to maybe put together a corporate outing to one of the local shooting ranges.

    But even though I've been out here for over five years, I'm still somewhat guarded and reserved about owning guns because I'm still kind of afraid that I'll be stigmatized for it.

    And I was born and raised in the same area that Mama & Papa Raptor both were, they left right about the same time I did (we more or less moved out here together), and they're both in their early-to-mid-60s.  So yeah, even though they're now surrounded by gun-owning conservatives (they only have only one openly-liberal neighbor, and there's an Anti-Trumper one or two streets over, but other than that it's all Republicans, and I believe I mentioned that a lot of their Bible Study friends have invited them to the range before), I should have absolutely realized that they'd be extremely self-conscious about owning a gun.

    Big self- :bash


    Oh, and just to clarify, the whole "He was a perfectly satisfactory child" thing happened at Papa Raptor's 60th birthday, so fairly recently and not when he was a kid, and she didn't appear to intend it maliciously.  Actually, I'm fairly certain that Grandma considers "satisfactory" to be a rather high compliment: I talked with her yesterday, and she very much wants to travel down to Florida to see Mama & Papa Raptor's new house since Papa Raptor designed it: she said that "she was sure that it was a very satisfactory house" and she sounded rather proud of Papa Raptor when she said it.  Mama Raptor worked with autistic children in a former life (she was a special-education aide at our local school district assigned to the emotional support unit), and based on her experiences with those kids, she's pretty certain that Grandma is "on the spectrum," so to speak.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #105 on: August 10, 2020, 02:20:31 pm »
     :hmm  Got it.  Still, the way the language adapts and changes over time is interesting to study all by itself and in this instance "satisfactory" is certainly not a pejorative term.  Perhaps not even "damning with faint praise" in your Grandma's case as older generations of Americans were not as prone to hype and exaggeration as we have become of late. 

    Satisfactory in the case of a person's expectations means that they have all been met - or so it seems to me - but today the word seems to be understood as something just short of a complaint.  Much like the word "regulated" in the Second Amendment has taken on a meaning altogether different today than what was understood at the time it was written.   :coffee

    Hopefully the more permissive environment and circle of friends and acquaintances will reinforce the idea that law abiding gun owners are just regular people.  Nothing to see here - move along.   :cool
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #106 on: August 10, 2020, 04:51:46 pm »
    Sent the "Master Document" to Mama Raptor.  I ended up just including The Four Rules, my recommendations on what to buy (in order of preference: PCCs, pistol-caliber lever guns, .30-30 lever guns, and 20-gauge Mossbergs) and the pros and cons of each, what they should not buy under any circumstances (junk brands, tiny revolvers, PGO shotguns, etc.), must-buy & should-buy accessories to get after buying a gun, and links to additional sources of information (Cornered Cat, Thunder Ranch's YouTube, and Mas Ayoob's articles in Backwoods Home).  Said that it wasn't urgent, they didn't have to look at it anytime soon, just that I thought it'd be a useful guide to have on hand.

    Mama Raptor called me up about 15-20 minutes later to thank me, and said she was shocked at how comprehensive it was.  And I know she at least skimmed it because I included Remington -- specifically new-production Remington -- on the "Do Not Buy" list, and she told me she'd had no idea Remington was bad, she'd always thought it was good, and that was one of the brands she'd been thinking about getting.  She actually sounded kind of excited, and I get the vibe that she's feeling better about the whole thing because she no longer feels like she's "flying blind," so to speak.

    I'm flying down there a week from today, so unless Mama and/or Papa Raptor have any major questions or concerns between now and then, my work here is done.  Mama Raptor already has her preferred FFL(s) picked out -- she asked her friends where they go -- so while I imagine we'll probably talk things over face-to-face at some point, I think the next update will be when we actually go out and they buy themselves something.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #107 on: August 10, 2020, 11:07:59 pm »
     :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    LowKey

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #108 on: August 11, 2020, 11:13:41 pm »
    Explain it in person once they've brought the gun home.   
    Shifting gears a bit, I'm almost finished putting together that "Master Document" of all of my advice and recommendations that I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'm hung up on whether or not to include a section on mindset, i.e. "A gun is not a magic talisman, if you own one you MUST be ready and willing to use it."  On the one hand, this is IMO vitally important for them to understand, but on the other hand I'm having trouble putting it into words because afraid that I might come across as too blunt or too scary and frighten them (especially Mama Raptor) out of wanting a gun.

    What say y'all?  Should I put it in the document, or just talk it through with them once I get down there?

    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #109 on: August 21, 2020, 07:54:14 pm »
    Quick update:

    We're probably gonna go next week: Mama Raptor's on board, she just has to get in touch with her friends and figure out which FFL(s) they recommend, and we'll go from there.

    And I had a rather surprising conversation with Papa Raptor.  Turns out his dislike of guns isn't a moral objection so much as because they're really loud.  The one time he went to the range was at his uncle's house, and said uncle had built a shooting range in his basement.  Given my experience with ranges in basements, my guess is that it was an extremely unpleasant experience just put him off guns.  Given that I had a similar experience - and reaction to - dogs as a kid, I definitely see where he's coming from and why he feels the way he does.  But I figure that we'll be able to ease him into it, especially if we can get him to an outdoor range and set him up with something like a .22.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #110 on: August 22, 2020, 01:59:44 am »
    Sounds like a plan.  I wish you safe travel and good luck.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #111 on: August 22, 2020, 09:49:37 am »
    Many thanks.  I've actually been down in FL for a few days.  Heading back on the 1st.... unless Mama Raptor manages to convince me to stay longer.  Which, if I'm honest, won't be all that hard....
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #112 on: August 22, 2020, 01:07:50 pm »
    Hope the good weather holds up for you.  Things can get ugly in that part of the world during hurricane season. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #113 on: August 22, 2020, 03:25:18 pm »
    Yeah have him double up on the hearing protection too.
    Kansas

    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #114 on: August 27, 2020, 01:32:44 pm »
    Well, Papa Raptor just put his foot down: No guns, no way, no how.  No reason other than that he doesn't feel they're in an area that has any real threat against it, and being murdered - and his wife being raped and murdered - is preferable to going to jail and having to pay for a lawyer if you use a gun to defend yourself.

    Three months of work down the tubes.

    I need a f***ing drink.  And I'm half-tempted to change my last name.

    EDIT: On the plus side Mama Raptor and I just learned of the existence of pepper gel, and she's going to order a Sabre Red Home Defense setup soon as the credit card billing cycle rolls over.  Better than harsh language, a pointy stick, or fresh fruit, and has longer reach than her cast-iron frying pan.
    « Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 03:09:39 pm by Raptor »
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #115 on: August 27, 2020, 05:15:47 pm »
    To clarify the above, Papa Raptor didn't specifically say that being raped and murdered is preferable to being arrested, jailed, and having to pay a lawyer.  He said that he didn't want to be arrested, jailed, and have to pay money for a lawyer, I asked if rape and murder would be preferable, he didn't reply (but made a face).

    Also, he flat-out refuses to even entertain the idea of coming to the range and learning how to shoot because "he has no interest whatsoever in doing so, guns aren't his thing."

    And Mama Raptor told him that she was going to buy that Sabre Red Pepper Gel once it comes back in stock, he said it's a good idea and a "reasonable alternative" to a firearm.   :shrug  I disagree, but I'll take what I can get at this point.

    And I still find myself pararphasing Sheriff Buford T. Justice:  "There ain't no way, ain't no way, that I could've come from that man's loins."
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Plebian

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #116 on: August 27, 2020, 07:22:34 pm »
    How would they feel about something like the Taser Pulse?
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #117 on: August 27, 2020, 08:29:19 pm »
    How would they feel about something like the Taser Pulse?

    Mama Raptor is all for Tasers.  No idea how Papa Raptor feels about them, though I suspect he'd balk at the MSRP (heck, I balked at the MSRP! For $450, buy a SIG P320!).  Me, I've never been completely sold on them, but I think it'd be okay if they wanted to carry one around, but a single-shot weapon with a 15-foot range for home defense (especially since Mama Raptor and I are both worried about mobs and/or multiple intruders), not a good idea.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #118 on: August 27, 2020, 09:31:11 pm »
    Interesting development.   :hmm   Disappointing, to be certain, but take it for what it is and move forward.  It seems to me that PR is operating out of ignorance and fear - at least to some degree - so maybe that has to be dealt with after getting MR outfitted with her OC dispenser. 

    Chris over at Lucky Gunner Lounge just did a segment on choosing a pepper spray product and did some testing to determine the pros and cons of various products.  I would check it out and have MR take a look also to get an idea of how they operate in the real world.  He also recommended a guy named Chuck Haggard of Agile Tactical Training as a good source of training and philosophy on the use of such weapons.  Be prepared to find limited selection(s) as the current run on guns and ammunition has spilled over into that area as well. 

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #119 on: August 28, 2020, 09:27:59 am »
    Interesting development.   :hmm   Disappointing, to be certain, but take it for what it is and move forward.  It seems to me that PR is operating out of ignorance and fear - at least to some degree - so maybe that has to be dealt with after getting MR outfitted with her OC dispenser. 

    Chris over at Lucky Gunner Lounge just did a segment on choosing a pepper spray product and did some testing to determine the pros and cons of various products.  I would check it out and have MR take a look also to get an idea of how they operate in the real world.  He also recommended a guy named Chuck Haggard of Agile Tactical Training as a good source of training and philosophy on the use of such weapons.  Be prepared to find limited selection(s) as the current run on guns and ammunition has spilled over into that area as well. 

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/

    Thanks much.  I'll pass those along.

    Dunno if it's ignorance & fear so much as Papa Raptor has a very narrow worldview and is extremely set in his ways, and it takes a literal act of God to change either.  His mother's like that (but worse: at least he doesn't have her "If I like/dislike it, then everyone else must like/dislike it!" attitude), and as I said earlier in the thread, he takes after her.

    Mama Raptor might just do what she did with cable and our first dog and get one anyway whether he likes it or not.  At the very least, she'd like to go back to the range again, though COVID's making that rather difficult.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Plebian

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #120 on: August 28, 2020, 07:14:00 pm »
    If they are dead set against a firearm period. Then a cold steel bushman knife and a fiberglass hoe handle might be in order. 

    The spear has defended castles and hovels alike for many centuries.   
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    Kaso

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #121 on: August 29, 2020, 05:18:07 pm »
    His reaction is similar to what I have seen when a person is 'backed into a corner' in an argument, and knows they will lose.  So naturally they push back vehemently, and reframe the argument. 

    Point is, he knows he was losing the argument, so he shut it down and started a new one. Kind of cowardly, but it is his house to make the call.

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #122 on: August 30, 2020, 12:15:07 am »
    My dad is somewhat similar.   He's not completely anti-gun,  just sort of indifferent about it and has never owned one.   Self defense isn't a major concern in a small town in the middle of Kansas.  He's thought about buying a shotgun for trap shooting occasionally, but it's just never happened.   I doubt he'd ever buy an AR and thinks we need to have more gun control in general.   I was really the first enthusiast in the family and I started buying stuff when I was in college.   One of my cousins has been building a bit of a collection the past few years.   Not to the level I have, but respectable.     

    My dad was also in a union for his entire career before he retired, and always votes for democrats.  I think his political views are sort of stuck in the 1970s and he thinks that republicans are all about helping rich people and the corporate executives.   He's still pissed at Reagan for firing the air traffic controllers.   I'd argue that neither party is really the friend of the average person.   Just look at how woke Corporate America has become.   Wall Street also loves them some big government.   The larger government is,  the easier it is for them to game the system and make it harder for smaller competitors to enter the market.   
    Kansas

    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #123 on: September 08, 2020, 06:26:00 pm »
    Any new developments ?   :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #124 on: September 09, 2020, 11:11:27 am »
    Any new developments ?   :hmm

    Not really.  Mama Raptor's still working on Papa Raptor, but I've no idea if it's actually having any effect.  Papa Raptor read the whole long document of recommendations that I put together for them (including a long diatribe on why they should go with a semi-automatic, what a semi-automatic is and isn't, etc.) and he was "very impressed" with the level of detail I included, but again, I don't think it actually had any effect.

    That said, I've been part of and party to multiple conversations between Mama & Papa Raptors and their friends and neighbors, and the discussions have always organically (i.e. I didn't push them) to how crazy things are, how if BLM and Antifa can show up in someplace like Kenosha, they'll show up -- and burn -- anywhere, and how it's vital that everyone "have a means to protect themselves and their family."  Even their hard-core Democrat neighbors have admitted that they now own guns for that reason.  So maybe he'll come around? I dunno.  Man's almost impossible to read.

    Good news is that he thought the Pepper Gel Home Defense kit is a good idea, and I think they're going to buy it as soon as it comes back in stock someplace (Sabre Red is completely sold out, as are all of their distributors).

    Mama Raptor's sister, funny enough, has gotten involved in the whole mess:  she and her husband are EXTREMELY pro-2A and EXTREMELY outspoken.  She's called Papa Raptor "a damn fool" and is adamant that Mama Raptor just get one anyway "and who cares if he doesn't like it?!  You're a strong independent woman!"  If she's pulling the Feminist Card (she is most certainly not a new-wave Feminist), you know she's serious.

    Anyway...

    Mama Raptor does want to go back to the range at some point.  We're not sure if we're going to do that while I'm still down here (I extended my stay for a few weeks, flying up on Monday) or if we'll visit my usual range when she flies up to the Burgh at some point in the near future.  And I think she might end up buying a gun regardless of Papa Raptor's wishes, especially depending on how that range trip goes.

    Speaking of which, I'm thinking about picking up a CMMG .22LR conversion kit for my AR-15, both as a training aid and so I can practice on an indoor range without breaking the bank, using up my supply of rifle ammo, and blowing my eardrums out.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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