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Author Topic: 9mm PCC Recommendations?  (Read 5604 times)

Raptor

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9mm PCC Recommendations?
« on: June 12, 2020, 05:45:20 pm »
So, the short version is that Mama Raptor is finally giving serious consideration to buying a gun for home defense.  We're still a ways off from her actually deciding to make a purchase, and this is almost certainly going to be a weeks-long process at minimum, but she's starting to ask me questions - and good questions at that.  Today's question was whether a pistol or a rifle would be better for home defense.  I answered that the rifle is easier to learn how to shoot since it's a more stable platform, but that the downside with rifle calibers vs. pistol calibers is that rifle calibers generally have far more muzzle blast and concussion, which I know from past experience Mom does not like: her first - and so far, only - range trip was a complete disaster thanks in large part to the compensated 10mm pistol on the lane next to us (which was the single most unpleasant firearm I've ever had the displeasure of standing next to whilst being fired).

Therefore, I'm recommending that she get a 9mm pistol caliber carbine of some sort.

Again, this is still a ways off, but I'm putting together a list of PCCs to suggest when the time comes.  Only trouble is is that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the PCC market as I probably should be, so any suggestions you all have would be extremely helpful.  We're early enough in the process that we haven't come up with a budget yet, but I've set a $2,000 MSRP limit (and knowing Mama and Papa Raptor, they'll probably want to spend much less than that).  Other than that and being chambered in 9mm Para, I really don't have any other limitations or criteria.  Here's what I've come up with so far:

-- CMMG Resolute Mk9 (straight-blowback, Colt SMG mags)
-- CMMG Resolute MkG (radial-delayed blowback, Glock mags)
-- CZ Scorpion EVO S3
-- PTR 9R 608 (PTR's take on the HK94)
-- Ruger PC Carbine
-- SIG MPX PCC
-- KRISS Vector CBR

Any others that I should add to (or remove from) the list?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT TO ADD: a simpler takedown process and/or action would probably be best.  Mama Raptor is, shall we say, not the most mechanically or technologically competent person in the world.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 06:31:25 pm by Raptor »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #1 on: June 12, 2020, 06:31:03 pm »
    Of the ones you list I'd recommend the Ruger PC carbine or the CZ Scorpion EVO.  I've handled both and found them easy to point, intuitive to operate and both have acceptable triggers out of the box.  Accuracy is decent from both and they seem to have good reviews from the reliability standpoint.  I like the fact that the Ruger is a take-down model and that it can be had to run with Glock magazines as well as the Ruger SR mags.

    Honestly, if you think this is something that may not have a good chance of being accepted I would go with one of the lesser priced models.  I would even consider a High Point as something to introduce the concept.  They are cheap and reliable.  Along with heavy and fugly and usually in stock.   :cool

    If you can find a used Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm that would also be an option.  If you find one of those make sure the recoil buffer is in good shape or buy a few on line.  They are easy to install and make the gun much more pleasant to shoot.

    Another gun that may not have occurred to you is one of the newly manufactured M1 carbine models from Auto Ordnance/Kahr or Inland Mfg. .
    Decent punch for a defensive carbine, very little recoil and the muzzle blast is not magnum level stuff either.   

    Buying something inexpensive and reliable and spending the money left over on ammo and any needed accessories seems preferable to dropping a huge wad of money on something that may not meet expectations, no?    :hmm
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #2 on: June 12, 2020, 06:47:45 pm »
    I thought about the Inland/Kahr M1s, but I've heard repeated less-than-good things about build quality and QC for both brands.  Otherwise, they'd be perfect.

    I'm leery of buying used since I'm in Pittsburgh and Mama Raptor is down in Florida.  She doesn't know what red flags to look for in a used gun and there's no guarantee that I'll be able to fly down there to help her pick out the actual gun.

    Honestly, the Ruger PC and the CZ Scorpion were my first choices, I just wanted to have extra options in case she decides she doesn't like either of them.  If the PC came with the Glock mag adapter installed from the factory it'd be just about perfect (Papa Raptor.... isn't a fan of guns, and while I'm 99% sure he has the necessary tools, I'm not 100% sure he'd install it for her).

    Another, though definitely less ideal, option would be a lever-action .357.  Back when I was finally convincing Mama and Papa Raptor to let me own and keep a gun in their house, Mama Raptor said that she'd like to have an "Annie Oakley Gun."  So maybe something like a Rossi R92, Marlin 1894, or an Italian-made 1873 clone from Cimarron, Taylor's, or Chiappa might fit the bill.
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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #3 on: June 12, 2020, 08:02:17 pm »
    I would go for the Ruger PCC with a red dot.   Its a capable gun, reasonably priced, and you can get the less "tactical" version that they may be more comfortable with.  I wouldn't worry too much about the Glock adapter. If you buy a few SR9 magazines that will be fine.  Your parents are not gun people so compatibility with their existing hoard of Glock mags isn't a concern.
    « Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 08:33:58 pm by ksuguy »
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 10:00:02 pm »
    I don't think "tactical-ness" is too big of a concern, since Mamma Raptor initially said, and I quote, "I don't want a dinky little pistol.  That's not gonna cut it: I want one of those AK things that you and Uncle Bobby have!" (For the record, both Uncle Bobby and I have ARs, and I don't believe he has an AK, but I could be wrong).  I'd prefer that they set the PCC up to run with Glock mags primarily because Glock mags are a) easier to find (in my experience) and b) there's minimal risk of confusion (no calling me up and asking "will this magazine fit in my gun?") or accidentally buying the "wrong magazine" (i.e. she buys a Ruger mag, but it's for an old P-Series gun).  If I can tell her to "just buy Glock 9mm mags and you'll be fine," that'll make everyone's lives much easier.

    Red dot is a must no matter what.  Mama Raptor needs reading glasses (and I think Papa Raptor does too now, finally) and one of the other problems that happened during that one range trip was Mama Raptor really couldn't make out the iron sights on the pistol she was shooting.  I'm going to recommend she get either a HoloSun of some sort, a Vortex Crossfire, or a SIG ROMEO series.
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    Plebian

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #5 on: June 12, 2020, 10:10:18 pm »
    Another vote for the Ruger PCC from me. I have liked everyone of them I have shot.

    The CMMG radial blowback versions are also super nice.

    The CZ scorpion I have only shot the first model. And the safety is super uncomfortable to me, but they still shot fine. Someone without gorilla sized hands would likely have less issues.
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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #6 on: June 12, 2020, 11:13:46 pm »
    Depending on where you buy it,  maybe the shop would be willing to install the Glock mag adapter with the purchase.    Most of the FFLs I know would be happy to do so if someone was already buying the gun from them.  It's a job that only takes a couple of minutes.      Or you could just order a bunch of SR9 magazines and mail them to her.  They are a bit more expensive than Glock magazines, but you should still be able to find them for $20-30.

    Another one you didn't consider is the Beretta CX4 Storm.   
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #7 on: June 12, 2020, 11:37:07 pm »
    In fairness to the Ruger SR series magazines mine have all been high quality and run with boring reliability in my SR9.  I can live with the price if the product works as advertised. 

    I noticed the safety on the CZ was a little wonky but not too bad for me.  The gun ran flawlessly on range day and has always done so according to the owner.
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    GaBoy45

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #8 on: June 13, 2020, 08:20:50 am »
    The ones I have experience with are the CMMG, Sig MPX, Kel-Tec Sub2000, and the CZ Skorpion. Have not shot the Ruger as of yet but a buddy owns one and speaks highly of it, except the weight. Now, the carbines I’ve shot that use Glock mags, have been a little, wonky, to say the least. The Colt SMG magazines are dead nuts reliable in the PCC stuff. I own an SBR’d MPX and it has been very good so far. The full length carbines are lighter than the Ruger and operate like an AR-15 so there is that. The CZ is up there as well. Safety isn’t the most comfortable but it works. I actually like the CMMG stuff and would not mind a Banshee, but in 5.7 for me. I would actually say the MPX. If your uncle and you have AR’s, y’all will be more familiar with the system and can help her even on the phone. The mags are a little expensive but work really well. Now one you may consider is the KA9 or PSA AKV9, I think. The PSA version uses CZ Magazines and easy operation. And she did state she wanted an AK


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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #9 on: June 13, 2020, 09:55:33 am »
    There is always the new HK MP5 if you want to spend a lot of money. 
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 01:12:54 pm »
    Well, it's definitely a go, though again we're still a ways off I think (Papa Raptor knows deep down that it's something he really should do given how crazy things are getting, he just needs to talk himself into it).

    Anyways, I recommended the PC Carbine, Scorpion, and CMMG MkG as good starting points.  Mama Raptor, to my surprise (though I really shouldn't have been) is already doing her homework on training, local ranges, good local FFLs, etc.  She's serious about this.
    « Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 01:52:09 pm by Raptor »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 12:39:20 am »
    Good to hear.  Thanks for the update.   :thumbup1
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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #12 on: June 20, 2020, 11:24:40 am »
    This may be relevant:


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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #13 on: June 20, 2020, 12:59:12 pm »
    This may be relevant:




    Actually watched that this morning.

    I REALLY want to recommend the PTR 9R carbine, and honestly that'd be my first choice if it were up to me, but there's no way I'd be able to sell Papa Raptor on a) a $1700 MSRP rifle (I think the Resolute is pushing it as it is, honestly) and b) a rifle with very limited and expensive aftermarket support - same reason why I wouldn't recommend the KR-9.

    All that said,  I made it clear to Mama Raptor that my three initial suggestions were just that - suggestions - and that she and Papa Raptor shouldn't limit themselves to only considering those three.  Unless they're seriously considering a really poor choice, I'll let them do their own thing.

    All that said, now Mama Raptor's having serious second thoughts about a long gun and wants to look at pistol because they're "too big" and handguns are cheaper.  Again, up to her and Papa Raptor (though TBH I think Papa Raptor's disinterested enough that he'll just go with whatever Mama Raptor wants), but I do think a PCC would be a better fit, especially since I don't see them going to the range to practice frequently.  Or at all, if I'm honest.   :(
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #14 on: June 20, 2020, 02:12:25 pm »
    Well, for lots of folks anything that costs $1000.00 is a major purchase and will be accompanied by varying amounts of rethinking and general dithering.  Regardless of the need for such a purchase they will inevitably think about what else they need that the money could buy and then look toward alternatives.  Natural enough for all of us who have operated for any length of time in the real world. 

    Once you arrive at the conclusion you need a firearm for self protection the fun really begins.  I have frequently handed out copies of Massad Ayoob's marvelous little book titled, "In The Gravest Extreme".   It is a short read - usually only a day or an evening.  Most then re-read it once they get the ideas in the front of their consciousness.  It is written in plain English, the concepts are simple and the language is non-technical.  It is still the best resource I have found to help folks get their minds around an idea they really don't want to think about.  It also helps think about what sort of weapon(s) to select and why.  Before the widespread availability of CCW classes it was considered the landmark reference in the field and I still think it ranks up there. 

    If you want to see and hear Mr. Ayoob and his philosophy and guidance there are numerous articles and videos available for free viewing on line so maybe that would prove helpful to you.  Don't be surprised if MR and PR decide a good double action revolver is the best gun at first for numerous reasons.  They lack the "tacticool" edge that many seek today but they are reassuringly reliable, easy to operate and maintain, fairly inexpensive if you can find a good used one and just as effective as they ever were when the payload is delivered.   
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 03:06:28 pm »
    Fair point on the cost (and I agree wholeheartedly), but Papa Raptor's frugality sometimes reaches the point where even Ebeneezer Scrooge would go "Dude, seriously?!"  Though to be fair, Mama Raptor balked hard when I recommended a $2k budget, but relaxed when I explained that that's for everything (safe, ammo, sights, etc.) rather than just the gun.

    I'm going to try to steer them away from a DA revolver (though the only one I'd flat-out object to would be a J-Frame or equal size) if that comes up in the discussion for a few reasons: Mama Raptor has tiny hands and her grip strength is weak enough that I question whether or not she'd be able to reliably pull a heavy DA trigger. Papa Raptor wouldn't have that problem, but unless they decide to buy His & Hers (in which case I'll start frantically checking on the condition of the Seventh Seal), I want them to get something that they can both use effectively.  And since Mama Raptor needs glasses for close-up vision and I think Papa Raptor does too now, I want them to have something that they can easily mount an optical sight to with a minimum of modification or accessorizing.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #16 on: June 20, 2020, 06:02:06 pm »
    Ok.  Let us know if we can render aid - or comfort.   :cool
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #17 on: June 20, 2020, 06:34:17 pm »
    Ok.  Let us know if we can render aid - or comfort.   :cool

    Will do. I suspect that I may need a drink or two (or three, or a dozen) by the time this all said and done.  ::)  The fact that I'm doing this over the phone and through emails since we now live +/- 1000 miles apart just makes it that much more complicated.  Depending on my employment situation, I may end up flying down there and walking them through the final stages of the decision-making process in person.
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    ksuguy

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 08:22:29 pm »
    A good used GP100 would be good if they go for a revolver.
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #19 on: June 27, 2020, 01:07:55 pm »
    As luck/fate would have it, Forgotten Weapons dropped this video this morning.  Already forwarded it to Mama Raptor.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #20 on: June 27, 2020, 03:47:54 pm »
    Well, other than the penchant for trying to faithfully recreate a time appropriate scenario I see no real reason to keep your 1911 in an old style military flap holster. They are a relic from the early days of the 1911's development and seldom seen today.  Even a WWII "tanker" rig would have been better.  Much better holsters for the 1911 are available and the best of those would arguably have shaved seconds off his times with the pistol. 

    The M1 carbine performed about like I would expect in that scenario.  When hits have to be quick and effective and the range increases beyond conversational distances carbines make a lot of sense to me.   I personally opt for the shotgun in that middle ground between rifles and handguns but people of smaller stature and reduced strength might find the M1 carbine a better solution.   As we have already discussed, there are lots of choices available but the Ruger Mini 14 has been around for years and is available in various calibers that are easily up to the task of home defense.   Might be something to consider if you're not getting a good feeling for the newly manufactured versions of the M1 carbine. 

    Either rifle is going to be smaller and easier to handle than most AR pattern rifles and even some of the carbines we've discussed.   Mrs. c and I got to fire a friend's Mini 14 on a group shoot range day and both came away impressed with how easily it handled and the intuitive nature of the rifle compared to the AR pattern rifles.   Maybe we're just old and set in our ways but that those factors are important if you're not going to be running a thousand rounds a year through it every year during rifle practice.  YMMV but I'm just trying to get an accurate read on MR and PR and the prospect of being armed as a necessity of modern life.   :hmm
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #21 on: June 27, 2020, 05:53:26 pm »
    Agreed with you on the flap holster.  I shared the video mostly to demonstrate to Mama Raptor that a long gun is a more stable and accurate platform compared to a handgun (I was trying to explain it over the phone, but I don't think it was clicking with her for some reason).

    A shotgun probably would not be a good choice for Mama Raptor: she's 5'4" and maybe 105 lbs soaking wet, and probably would not like something that kicks as hard as a shotgun (though I could be wrong: she's surprised me before).  Papa Raptor, OTOH, is 6'2" and probably in the neighborhood of  160-ish lbs bone dry.  He's fired guns before, but not since he was a kid, and he did NOT enjoy it.  IIRC, he specifically mentioned the "kick" as being one reason why he didn't like it, though he couldn't tell me for certain what kind of gun it was (I think it was a long gun of some sort, but no idea if it was a rifle or shotgun).  He might do well with a semiautomatic shotgun of some sort.

    I'll float the AR and Mini-14 platforms if they start looking that way, and I agree they'd be better than a PCC of any sort for home defense.  But as I mentioned, Mama Raptor doesn't do well with lots of muzzle blast, and while there are plenty of indoor ranges near them, I'm not sure they have ready access to an outdoor range.

    I just want to help them find something that's effective for home defense and that they can both use comfortably.  All that said, I'm just thrilled that Mama and Papa have finally decided to get a gun, period.  I'll be happy with pretty much anything they ultimately decide to go with.

    Sadly, everything just got put on hold for at least a week: Mama Raptor took a nasty spill off an electric bicycle earlier today.  She's fine, no broken bones or anything like that AFAIK, but she banged up and scraped up her elbow pretty good.  She wants to hold off on any sort of range trip or training until that heals.
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    Raptor

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #22 on: June 27, 2020, 09:00:36 pm »
    I did recommend to Mama Raptor that she find an instructor and at least get on their calendar sooner rather than later, since from everything I've seen online, training slots across the country are booked out for the next few weeks at minimum.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #23 on: June 27, 2020, 10:50:21 pm »
    Sorry to hear about MR's mishap and hope she recovers completely in record time.  I agree with some classroom time with an instructor prior to any live fire drills or practice.  Besides essential information on the legal aspects of shooting in self defense the instructor may have some insight you and I have missed.  You never know when and/or how something clicks into place for people and they begin to " get it " but more training and education at this point is probably a good thing. 

    I wasn't actually recommending the shotgun - just pointing out there's more than one tool for most jobs.  They have the advantage of considerable versatility in terms of ammunition selection and pack serious punch in the terminal ballistics department but the price for that is paid in the recoil. 

    A Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30 is not a bad choice as an alternative to a PCC.  The Mini 14 in .223/5.56 is easy to shoot and ammo is plentiful and fairly cheap but the muzzle blast inside a structure is horrendous.  The Mini 30 in either 7.62x39 or .300 AAC Blackout is also pretty easy to control and in the case of the 7.62x39 ammo is also easy to find and fairly inexpensive. Not so much with the .300 AAC Blackout but if you go with the subsonic ammo in that caliber the muzzle blast is somewhat reduced.  Neither caliber is punishing in the recoil department but both are more than the .223/5.56 round.  Muzzle blast and concussion inside a structure is going to be the primary disadvantage to these. 

    That is going to be a problem with any long gun and many of the higher intensity pistol cartridges as well.  Just like getting blinded by a flashlight at night and losing your night vision for a half hour - the concussion and muzzle blast from some weapons inside a structure is enough to disorient you and also deafen you temporarily.  That is the whole purpose behind the "flash-bang" concussion grenades used by the police and military when they know they're going in hot.   The only way to find out how MR and PR are going to be able to deal with that is actual range time with actual guns and live ammunition.

    I don't envy you this assignment.  I went through it with my mother many years ago when she was living alone driving back and forth to work five or six days a week - also alone.   Threat assessment and tactical awareness are hard things to teach people who grew up in a time and place where people let their kids go play in the neighborhood all day and told them to be home by dinner and who thought nothing of leaving the doors unlocked all day.   All safe in the knowledge that neighbors looked out for one another and the cops on the beat were both numerous and well equipped.   Like Yogi Berra once said,  "The future ain't what it used to be.".    :shrug
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    Plebian

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    Re: 9mm PCC Recommendations?
    « Reply #24 on: June 27, 2020, 11:48:23 pm »
    That is going to be a problem with any long gun and many of the higher intensity pistol cartridges as well.  Just like getting blinded by a flashlight at night and losing your night vision for a half hour - the concussion and muzzle blast from some weapons inside a structure is enough to disorient you and also deafen you temporarily.  That is the whole purpose behind the "flash-bang" concussion grenades used by the police and military when they know they're going in hot.   The only way to find out how MR and PR are going to be able to deal with that is actual range time with actual guns and live ammunition.

    I will second the need to experience the blast and concussion to really understand. The first time I ripped off my CETME in a training house really, really made me reconsider using a 308 rifle in a structure. A short barreled AR is not much more pleasant either. Any 9mm carbine is significantly less jarring to be around in a structure.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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