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Author Topic: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --  (Read 84088 times)

First Shirt

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Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2017, 09:21:44 pm »
I keep telling myself that I need one of these like I need another armpit, and that for what I hunt, and where I hunt it, it would be slightly less useful than a rubber crutch.

Then I catch myself looking at left-handed Savage 20-ga. bolt shotguns, and wondering......
Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #76 on: March 13, 2017, 05:06:53 pm »
    Welcome to the dark side .   .   .     :cool
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #77 on: April 25, 2017, 08:46:34 pm »
    Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
    hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
    for  the expanding slug.




    Here is the  before and after of  375 HE cases,   
     2 on left necked,  2 on right formed in hydro die after necking..



    Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
    with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
    Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
    Holds over  280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the picture,
    1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

    416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
    470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
    Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
    to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill  be under 50 lbs.
    A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



    Here is picture of  the 416 HSM fireformed once,
    next to bmg case we make it from and as we
    improve wildcatting process next few weeks
    some specs may make small changes, now from
    base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





    Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
    He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
    We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
    Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
    Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

    Here are final specs for 416 HE.
    Length 3.32",  belt diameter  ,655",  base dia  .635" ,
    length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #78 on: April 26, 2017, 12:22:18 am »
    That is hauling a&& for a bullet that size.    :cool
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #79 on: June 26, 2017, 04:13:18 pm »
    Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for  28ga and
    410 ga and  32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
    They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
    our 585 case in the action.Guys can get  Magtech brass cases or have
     RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
    410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



    Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
    BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
    enough thickness in the sides to handle  high pressure,
    in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
    work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
    We have lots of 585s,  375HEs,  416 HEs,  408 HEs.....
    And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



    Here's comparison of  416 target cases, 1st  416 HE,  have whole bunch.
    Second is model of what I'd have made  on  medium machine, if I could, 
    the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of  230gr..
    Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
    cases, And if  had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..




    Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
     Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in 
    375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very  similiar to 375HE )...
     It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

    Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
     weekend 10-13th  at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
    Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
    Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #80 on: July 23, 2017, 09:48:17 pm »
    The 12ga FH case  now is in the new COTW book on
    last  page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
    They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   case....


    The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

    has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

    on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..




    More info out now;  short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
    Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
     proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
     and  debth of  the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture  below..
    My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #81 on: September 04, 2017, 10:02:41 pm »
    Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
    made by necking our 585 HE big belted case.




    Here is picture of 375 HE left,  416 HE next,  416 HSM on the right..




    Here, tentative specs,  416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,





    A  375  HE,  with Lawton action, few are being done with those,Ed .....



    First Shirt

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #82 on: September 05, 2017, 01:32:11 pm »
    For the life of me, I can't come up with a good reason to have one of these, but I sure do want one!
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #83 on: October 09, 2017, 03:24:27 pm »
    A 585 HE ...shot  with moderate heavy load......

    https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


    Here is a 375 HE target gun  set up, by Asteroid Precision...




    Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

    bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's  just getting started

    and is checking on  better powder, Ed..



    https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecision/videos/298031133934093/?fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group
       

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #84 on: November 10, 2017, 11:27:56 pm »
    Here is recap simple setup  to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

    & slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming  chamber

     in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5"  12ga reamer, that isn't

     something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

    get 3.5"  brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

    our slower powder loads you can get a  quarter more speed,

    which gives 50% more energy...


    585 Hubel Express  video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy  load,  gun little light.....




    Another view of  Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

     


    Here is our  416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

     

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #85 on: November 10, 2017, 11:53:24 pm »
    Owie .  .  .   :scrutiny
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    MTK20

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #86 on: November 11, 2017, 09:51:11 am »
    That's just too much gun :shocked .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #87 on: November 11, 2017, 01:57:05 pm »
    Wouldn't that depend on what you're shooting at ?    :hmm    I'm guessing if its either "LET'S EAT!" or "SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!" - I'll take the thump and deal with it later but I have to admit, it doesn't look like much fun. 
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    MTK20

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #88 on: November 11, 2017, 02:03:08 pm »
    Wouldn't that depend on what you're shooting at ?    :hmm    I'm guessing if its either "LET'S EAT!" or "SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!" - I'll take the thump and deal with it later but I have to admit, it doesn't look like much fun.

    I'd take my chances against whatever was trying to 'get me'. Shooting that thing would surely be fatal  :rotfl. 190lbs of recoil? That's more than I weigh soaking wet and with full kit. Screw that.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #89 on: November 11, 2017, 02:12:15 pm »
    Ok, so it needs an airbag.    :cool
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    MTK20

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #90 on: November 11, 2017, 02:51:56 pm »
    Ok, so it needs an airbag.    :cool

    Yes and one of those parachutes that they put on drag racers. You make those modifications or know someone who does and then I'll shoot one  :rotfl .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #91 on: November 14, 2017, 05:20:29 pm »
    Oh you slow it down a tad and  2-3 lbs in the butt

    and they shoot just fine. Get it down to  12,000

    ft lbs instead of 14,000,Ed

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #92 on: November 14, 2017, 06:29:52 pm »
    I'll call you next time I'm planning to hunt dinosaurs.   :cool
    Arizona" I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said."

                                   William F. Buckley, Jr.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #93 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:30 pm »
    Thanks-  You find one I''ll hunt it..

    Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

    our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed




    We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

    between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

    375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our  416 HSM without

    having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


    Here is picture of 620   416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

    that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

    There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we  have

    1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

    This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

    them we can give the steps involved...Ed.



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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #94 on: February 12, 2018, 11:08:50 am »
    For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416  easier to get powders to work with,  less problems ..
    Maybe building a target gun,don't have  375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

    We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
    CEB and others will have bullets...CEB  will be doing .416 in  450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

    Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as  585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
     did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper,  .021" per
    side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

    I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
    no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

    And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
    more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
    hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

    And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
    15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #95 on: March 05, 2018, 12:13:24 am »
    Here is a drawing depicting the layout of  thick and thin sided cases,
    like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

    And my 585 case is not perfect,  as where it transitions from the
    heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
    shortening  case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
    The dotted line is what it should be............



    Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
    stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
    don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
     it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

    Here is picture of  six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
    and 6th is thick sided version. 1st  600  OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added



    In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
    Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE,  but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
    not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they  last forever as 585s......

     Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
    and sharp transition from the corner, tested  20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
    as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get  10 hot loads, and necked down to
    416/375  4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent,  factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #96 on: March 21, 2018, 07:06:13 pm »
    Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base  diameter up from Nyati.He said,
    'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
    could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

    Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
    size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

    Another just sent us,  thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
    416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's  375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck  over 45k psi.

    Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
    stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
    speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be  4- 4.5  inches long..

    . Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
     contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
     be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

    Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
    same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
     side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
     just by grinding off sharp transition corner.  Then sides would be perfect.., .




    Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
    using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed





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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #97 on: April 20, 2018, 11:21:57 am »
    Here is picture of  thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex  case, and our HE case,
    The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
    These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....



    Got guys asking and doing it,  to do 416 HSM  case for BMG actions, so  leaving rim same,
    as  the original bmg rim, so  will neck them,  fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others. 
    Base a little bigger, Shoulder  same diameter,  same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

    Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
    Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
    And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
    clear up to 550 gr...

    So there will be 3 versions, one for actions  .750" bolt, one for  .800-.850" bolt, 
    And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

    Here is   416 HSM  guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #98 on: May 10, 2018, 11:04:47 pm »
    Here is sectioned 585  HE case in the middle, we first  made from

    another case, years ago  before we had factory run of brass and

     it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

    We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

    First case is  factory run of  our 585 HE,  3rd  is case that is too

    thick of  sides and sticks at high pressures..



    Pic of  our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

    at high pressure on the right,  with unfired case on the left.

    Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed


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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #99 on: July 09, 2018, 10:56:42 pm »
    About 416 cal bullets............

    The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably  be best 8 to 1  twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
    and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are  10 to 1.......

    Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
    long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
    Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
    like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
    while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

    The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
    twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

    Paul Philips was third with a 416...

    GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
     in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........   http://bertrambrass.com  .. .. Caleb Hallet..

    Have got another  intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
    to do speed testingwith. It is  big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED

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