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Author Topic: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --  (Read 86860 times)

Plebian

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Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2018, 11:13:49 pm »
Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

If I got my physics correct, and that is by no means certain here at all.

Removing mass from the center of the projectile thereby increasing angular momentum in relation to the weight of the projectile should increase stability as well? So drilling the back and center out you are making it front heavy(stability in flight) and increasing the angular momentum of the projectile in relation to weight as well(stability).

Has anyone took this thought to its logical conclusion. Which would be to construct a round with something like an aluminum core with lead wrap and jacket over it all? You should get less mass(velocity) with super nice angular momentum for stability from a longer projectile in a slower twist than typically needed for projectile length.

I am at the end of the stick that is my physics knowledge. So if this is all wrong feel free to correct me.
Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #101 on: July 10, 2018, 12:02:40 am »
    You may well be correct about the angular momentum but historically match cartridges have been made lighter at the front end for long range work.  The Brits did it with the .303, the Russians did it with the 7.62x54, and several brands of domestic .308 diameter match bullets all have a small hollow cavity at the nose. 

    Apparently the bullets get a little wobbly at short range ( 100-200 yards ) but settle down beyond that distance and actually are more accurate at longer ranges than their solid counterparts.  Another strategy seems to be a rebated boat tail design to the bullet base.  Perhaps combining those design elements would yield some good results.   :hmm

    Wouldn't it be easier to just machine a solid bullet out of a homogeneous material that is lighter than the jacketed lead bullet?  Barring that you could swage partial lead cores and insert solid aluminum plugs at one or more locations along the long axis of the bullet to alter it's length to weight ratio and nose to tail weight distribution. 
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    Plebian

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #102 on: July 10, 2018, 01:21:33 am »
    You may well be correct about the angular momentum but historically match cartridges have been made lighter at the front end for long range work.  The Brits did it with the .303, the Russians did it with the 7.62x54, and several brands of domestic .308 diameter match bullets all have a small hollow cavity at the nose. 

    Apparently the bullets get a little wobbly at short range ( 100-200 yards ) but settle down beyond that distance and actually are more accurate at longer ranges than their solid counterparts.  Another strategy seems to be a rebated boat tail design to the bullet base.  Perhaps combining those design elements would yield some good results.   :hmm

    Wouldn't it be easier to just machine a solid bullet out of a homogeneous material that is lighter than the jacketed lead bullet?  Barring that you could swage partial lead cores and insert solid aluminum plugs at one or more locations along the long axis of the bullet to alter it's length to weight ratio and nose to tail weight distribution.
    If it was just a less dense material. Then you still need similar twist rate as a lead projectile.

    If you concentrate the mass near the outer parts of the projectile you get more angular momentum per mass.

    Sorta like a fly wheel is heavy on the outer rim to maximize angular momentum for the same mass of the flywheel.

    Maybe a bronze outer shell filled with some plastic or aluminum.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #103 on: July 10, 2018, 01:59:33 am »
    Maybe but the lack of sectional density will more than likely cause you to reach the point of diminishing returns at anything considered long range. 

    So far, everything that seems to work well is long, skinny and heavy for caliber.  Composite bullets like you describe may have an advantage in terms of angular momentum but only if everything is perfectly balanced.  At the rotational speeds experienced by most rifle bullets even a slight manufacturing defect could render it unstable. 

    I am, admittedly, a little out of my depth here but the speculation is an interesting thought experiment. 
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    Plebian

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #104 on: July 10, 2018, 01:27:25 pm »
    Maybe but the lack of sectional density will more than likely cause you to reach the point of diminishing returns at anything considered long range. 

    So far, everything that seems to work well is long, skinny and heavy for caliber.  Composite bullets like you describe may have an advantage in terms of angular momentum but only if everything is perfectly balanced.  At the rotational speeds experienced by most rifle bullets even a slight manufacturing defect could render it unstable. 

    I am, admittedly, a little out of my depth here but the speculation is an interesting thought experiment.

    Yeah. It would be running into the Germanic engineering level. I know that Germans experimented with Aluminum core jacketed rifle bullets for better BC with lower weight after WW2. They wanted less recoil and greater range in the same cartridge without reducing bore size.

    I also know all the tests have already been done on wanting better flight characteristics with better BC in tank cannon. That is what lead to all the use of sabot darts for almost all modern tanks. You use fins for stability(no need for rifling at all) and larger bore with small frontal area projectile. This is basically min/max tuning of the long, skinny projectile idea.

    Increasing complexity 100 fold to gain a 10% improvement is not always the best path to follow. 
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #105 on: July 10, 2018, 04:25:31 pm »
    Yup.  On something the size of a cannon shell its probably more doable in terms of cost than it would be on a rifle bullet.  I guess if I ever won a big lottery jackpot I would have enough money to fiddle around with this stuff and tinker to my heart's content but as it is I think I'll just work on the honeydo list.   :cool
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #106 on: July 24, 2018, 11:21:27 pm »
    Experimental intermediate size action with  the Montana PH, for comparison.

    It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

    and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

    without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

     It is  big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

     1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

    BMG actions.... ED




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #107 on: September 19, 2018, 03:27:18 am »
    Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

    with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

    base size of locking lugs, the amount of  area on the bolt..





    Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

    Good pictures............www.585he.cz

    We tested intermediate action with a 700HE  barrel we had here.

    Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

     Action worked fine.. Ed.

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #108 on: October 20, 2018, 10:28:44 pm »
    Here is video of early water barrel test of the

    12ga From Hell, from years ago.




    Here is picture from that video..





    Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #109 on: December 06, 2018, 02:57:06 am »
    In 416 HSM  got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

    with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

    Our 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #110 on: December 06, 2018, 02:57:26 am »
    In 416 HSM  got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

    with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

    Our 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #111 on: January 03, 2019, 06:40:04 am »
    Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

    for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

    Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

    A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


    Second is stacks of  416 HSM, about a third fireformed

    and the rest  to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed









    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #112 on: February 07, 2019, 05:53:00 pm »
    Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

    Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

    He was an esteemed member of the

    American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

    Being its president in 1992..He liked

    working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

    .Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

    Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down to 50cal

    We lost a great friend,,,Ed

    MTK20

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #113 on: February 07, 2019, 06:40:37 pm »
    My condolences.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #114 on: February 07, 2019, 10:48:05 pm »
    And mine. 
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    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #115 on: April 06, 2019, 09:02:56 pm »
    .....


    It is possible  rig up holders for many types setups.,

    About shellholder supply for big cases,

    RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases

    that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases...

    Here are various sizes.......

    16ga-- .810" rim,........  20ga--  .760" rim,....   

    24ga--  .725" rim,.......   28ga  .680" rim....

    Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders...


    We fireform the 416 HSM  with 65 gr of medium speed

    surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

    and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

    It is  loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

    size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


    It is great getting more companies making  416 caliber bullets,

    long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



    ....

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #116 on: April 28, 2019, 09:23:11 am »
    Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long  barrel is stable enough

    for  ELR ,  rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

    .Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

    Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm  case....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyabm-cbwgc&feature=youtu.be


    HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

    750 gr with 155gr  RE17,  just a moderate load.....Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #117 on: July 20, 2019, 06:17:09 pm »
    20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having

    the sides made too thick...They have  thinner sides

    than smaller  cases guys are getting  that have the sides

     made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures.


    Here   Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed......


    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #118 on: September 17, 2019, 09:14:41 am »
    Got guys doing  various 416 HEs..

    One just  built a 416 HE,  just been  testing it a few days..

    And using  168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB,  tested it, in good

    conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and  was within

    a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges

    had same accuracy. Ed..

    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #119 on: November 24, 2019, 05:47:57 am »
    More about our 416 HSM  from BMG brass,  and
    our  416 HE  &  460 HE  from our 585 HE cases
    Got reamers for 375 HE, 416 HE  and 416 HSM,....

     460 HE & 460 HSM are all spec'd, got  HE reamer
    soon have HSM reamer...Our HSMs have a Wea type
    radius on the shoulder..

    The fellow that set up our 416 HE in an ELR rifle
    and got  1/4 min accuracy,
    They got some game out west over 1400 yds..
    .Here is the gun they set up.
    Using a  K&P 34" barrel on a BAT action.....Ed



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #120 on: November 27, 2019, 03:27:45 pm »


    And have got  460 HSM specs setup,  the impetus for that is some
     asking about one and new great line of  458 bullets CEB now has.
     
    It will hold more powder than the 416 HSM and will get
    a 572 gr as fast as 416 HSM gets a 475gr.....Ed..

    coelacanth

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #121 on: November 27, 2019, 10:29:32 pm »
    Yikes.  :shocked
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    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #122 on: January 24, 2020, 05:58:06 am »
    The guys that did the super accurate 416 HE did another
    416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

    Used a Stiller action and same load with 475 gr bullet, as in
    first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy.
    3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.
     
    And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
    the cartridge is capable of....Here is  print with specs for
    the 416 HE reamer chamber ....Ed....



    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #123 on: February 11, 2020, 08:22:16 am »
    More about he guys that did the  accurate 416 HE, they  did a
    416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

    Used longer barrel and the same load with 475 gr bullet, as used
    in the first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy,.
    3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.
     
    And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
    the cartridge is capable of....Here is picture.......Ed....




    hubel585

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    Re: 585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
    « Reply #124 on: July 13, 2020, 06:47:52 pm »
    Away for a time, sickness..
    Here is print with chamber reamer specs for the
     416 HSM  chamber..There are 3 base sizes we have,
    depending on actions used. Got reamers for all 3..
    Got cases for all of them..
    Our cases are public domain, so that is why I post
    info and specs.  To help guys do their own setups.
    Manson makes reamers I use,,, Ed.
    http://www.gunownerstv.com/416hsmream.jpg


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