Weapons and Gear => Rifles => Topic started by: Slayer-72 on February 15, 2010, 10:00:23 pm
Title: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Slayer-72 on February 15, 2010, 10:00:23 pm
hey, does any one know if there are any semi auto rifles in 45-70? like perhaps an ak-47 conversion? ;D i havnt shot the cartrige, which is probubly the only reason im asking.....
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: HiVelSword on February 15, 2010, 10:21:43 pm
hey, does any one know if there are any semi auto rifles in 45-70? like perhaps an ak-47 conversion? ;D i havnt shot the cartrige, which is probubly the only reason im asking.....
Quick answer? No. Though Tony Rumore converted a Saiga .410 to .444 Marlin. And some AR manufacturer makes a .308 pattern AR into a .450 Marlin but I've got an expert opinion that says feeding can be problematic.
If you want a semi-auto throwing large chunks of lead look into a Rock River Arms .458 SOCOM, Bushmaster .450 or an Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Mumbles on February 15, 2010, 10:25:25 pm
Only .50 Beowulf I ever saw in person wouldn't go into battery.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 15, 2010, 10:26:37 pm
And let's not forget McCann's .458 Win Mag Garands: http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html (http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html)
I now know what gun zoos should keep on hand for emergencies
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 16, 2010, 12:32:41 am
:hmm
I wonder if Cape Buffalo are susceptible to the zombie virus?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Raptor on February 16, 2010, 11:42:17 am
Probably not.
Buy one anyway, just to be on the safe side. ;)
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Mumbles on February 16, 2010, 11:44:00 am
Quote
I wonder if Cape Buffalo are susceptible to the zombie virus?
According to the Zombie Survival Guide, no, not currently. But just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen ever, so I second what Raptor said.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: CameronS on February 16, 2010, 11:44:47 am
I wonder if Cape Buffalo are susceptible to the zombie virus?
I would imagine that the individual viruses don't discriminate between human brain tissue and other animal brain tissue. If they don't, then we're all doomed and need those rifles. If they do discriminate, well, we need those rifles anyway. ;D
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JWF III on February 16, 2010, 04:43:15 pm
Might be possible to modify an SVT or PSL. The rim of the 7.62x54R is .570", while the .45-70's rim is .608". With a difference of less than 1/32" in diameter (1/64" in radius), it could possibly be done.
Who's going to offer up their rifle for experimenting?
NOT IT!
Wyman
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on February 16, 2010, 04:58:13 pm
Heck even if it was a new version of the 45/70 i.e. same bullets, I don't care what it's called as long as it's not from Alexander Arms. Something that each of the ammo companies would make some for, so ammo would be available. And give us 15+ rd mags for it! preferably 20+
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Mutant Musket on February 17, 2010, 11:33:18 am
A 45-70 likely couldna be made fromma Kalash. But perhaps some species of Dragunov could be bred te do the trick. The receiver's fair long.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 17, 2010, 11:37:30 am
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on February 17, 2010, 11:41:43 am
To my understanding the big holdup is the cartridge length in regards to 45-70 and the fact that it's a rimmed cartridge right?
So how much shorter would it have to be to fit either, or both, the AR family and the AK families? Ok and then get rid of the rim.
Call it 45-70 Auto or .457A or .457badA
The lost in length, what kind of change in power levels would we be looking at? Enough to matter?
It seems you'd gain a lot, unlike going with a new bullet or style etc, using existing bullets of the .45-70 family you get a lot more options for reloaders and custom runs right off the bat.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Khorne on February 17, 2010, 11:43:42 am
That brings up a good question. Does anyone know of any Dragunov like weapons chambered for anything other than 7.62x54r? (and that's actually available and doesn't cost a billion dollars?)
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Mutant Musket on February 17, 2010, 11:45:33 am
Thers good evidence thet in can be done. And thers no question thet it bloody well SHOULD be done. Be it PSL or Drago.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 12:08:27 pm
To my understanding the big holdup is the cartridge length in regards to 45-70 and the fact that it's a rimmed cartridge right?
So how much shorter would it have to be to fit either, or both, the AR family and the AK families? Ok and then get rid of the rim.
Call it 45-70 Auto or .457A or .457badA
The lost in length, what kind of change in power levels would we be looking at? Enough to matter?
It seems you'd gain a lot, unlike going with a new bullet or style etc, using existing bullets of the .45-70 family you get a lot more options for reloaders and custom runs right off the bat.
Thoughts?
Well, if you took a 45-70 and shortened it to fit in an AR, lost the rim and made the case a little fatter to replace lost case capacity you would have just recreated the .458 SOCOM that's been around for nearly a decade.
32 rounds in a MWG drum: (http://webpages.charter.net/pjaugust/MWG%20Mag.jpg)
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on February 17, 2010, 12:11:38 pm
So the .458 uses the same bullets as a 45/70? Interesting. :hmm
Anybody have any ballistic data comparing the 2?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 12:21:43 pm
So the .458 uses the same bullets as a 45/70? Interesting. :hmm
Anybody have any ballistic data comparing the 2?
458 SOCOM factory loads exceed Remington or Winchester 45-70 loads by a fair margin and are reasonable close to what a handloader might safely achieve in something like a Marlin Guide Gun. For example, CorBon claims 1900fps for a 300 grain JHP from a 16" barrel. I get 2200 fps from a 22" barreled Marlin 1895 45-70. The SOCOM runs a 405 grainer about 1700fps from a 16". I get 1875 from my Marlin with 6" more barrel.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on February 17, 2010, 12:27:54 pm
I see said the blind man. So a .458 Socom with the right load = AR platform capable of Elk then eh? gigglesnort! I just ordered a Cav Arms lower today...
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 12:46:48 pm
I don't know that I'd put a 458 SOCOM on a Cavalry Arms MkII at this point in time.
The Cavalry Arms crew was concerned that the added recoil might excess wear and possibly cause the receiver to fail. This would not have been a big deal a couple years ago. In addition to their regular warranty, Cavalry Arm would replace a damaged receiver for $30 no matter what the owner did.
With the warranty service being taken over be another company, I'd wait and see what happened first.
Or maybe a custom upper from my friend Marty http://www.teppojutsu.com/ (http://www.teppojutsu.com/)
Yeah, Marty is awesome. He's still waiting on Cor Bon for his order of .44 Automag that he placed in November! Can't wait for my upper to be done!!!
I've half a mind to call or e-mail Cor Bon myself but I don't want to open up a can of worms.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: HiVelSword on February 17, 2010, 01:37:49 pm
Always wondered how many rounds of .458 would fit in a C-mag. I'm guessing 33-34.
My next custom lower will be specifically designated/engraved for .458 SOCOM. The upper I'll have to buy from Marty because RRA doesn't offer their barrels with a break.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 01:41:46 pm
If Marty needed .44 AutoMag why doesn't he load it up?
As soon as I read that I was like, "duh!" remembering how the feed system works. Yeah, I need a safety helmet.
Anyway, he already did load some. But that's because he was waiting so long. I guess he figured it'd be easier to not have to make them.
At this stage he's working on converting the mags, test firing and then he's going to cut the barrel back and weld a Shrewd MB (I want a 16" O/A barrel length). He might farm it out to Tony Rumore as I know Marty hates welding.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 01:54:15 pm
As soon as I read that I was like, "duh!" remembering how the feed system works. Yeah, I need a safety helmet.
Anyway, he already did load some. But that's because he was waiting so long. I guess he figured it'd be easier to not have to make them.
At this stage he's working on converting the mags, test firing and then he's going to cut the barrel back and weld a Shrewd MB (I want a 16" O/A barrel length). He might farm it out to Tony Rumore as I know Marty hates welding.
I read it mean Marty was actually waiting for the ammo. I was ???'d
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: HiVelSword on February 17, 2010, 02:14:45 pm
I read it mean Marty was actually waiting for the ammo. I was ???'d
"Black Sunshine" is just a side project. I'm sure he'll load more if need be but I can see where he'd be able to slam dunk the whole thing if he had his shipment come in.
I'm going to send him a few POF 25 round mags so that when the upper is finished it will have the POF's and 2 P-mags in the box. He told me that as I buy more mags, I can buy the conversion kits (spacer/follower/spring).
Yeah, this carbine is a long time coming. I can't wait to load for it myself! Experimenting with different bullet designs and such.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 17, 2010, 02:35:41 pm
I see said the blind man. So a .458 Socom with the right load = AR platform capable of Zombie Elk then eh? gigglesnort! I just ordered a Cav Arms lower today...
I understand the CProducts 40 rounder are running great 14-15 rounds of 458 SOCOM...
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Matthew Mayner on February 17, 2010, 03:03:36 pm
So can it be bump fired? You know in case you need to stop that rampaging dump truck RIGHT NOW!
I think a better question might be: Can you shoot it without bump firing?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JWF III on February 17, 2010, 03:44:38 pm
Quote
So can it be bump fired? You know in case you need to stop that rampaging dump truck RIGHT NOW!
Better yet. The trigger group functions the same as an M1A as and Mini-14. The trigger group can be "adjusted" to fire once on the pull, and once on the release. A lot more controllable than bump firing.
Wyman
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on February 17, 2010, 03:53:47 pm
I may be in the minority, but I hope not, but that hardly sounds safe man... in fact I can see A LOT OF BAD coming from that. :scrutiny
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Daylight on February 17, 2010, 05:58:52 pm
I have wondered about cutting .308 or .30-06 below the shoulder to make an .45 uber auto. I assume someone has already done this or something like this.
IIRC Jeff Cooper advocated a round like this is a semi auto PDW configuration for REMFs. Authoritative to 150-200 yards, semi only.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Deer Hunter on February 17, 2010, 06:02:36 pm
.45 Super brass can be made from that method, Daylight.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 17, 2010, 06:12:24 pm
As can .44 Automag.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: HiVelSword on February 17, 2010, 06:54:19 pm
Yeah, the more I post about it the more I can't wait. Marty says that recoil is ridiculously light. I wanna know that for myself!
Gah! It's KEEEELing me!!! :devillol
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: FluffyHitman on February 19, 2010, 06:44:15 pm
So is there any particular reason that an SVD/PSL/SVT-40 (in theory, don't mess up a genuine SVT-40 for this) couldn't be rechambered into .45-70? Is the mag a bit too thin for the rim? I've been reading up on a 16" PSL with AK furniture that is currently in the production process, and .45-70 would be even more fun than 7.62x54, although I'm pretty sure either would be plenty for anything I'm likely to hunt. The .45-70 would also likely be a lot more expensive unless I was handloading.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 19, 2010, 07:13:29 pm
The rims of 7.62x54R and .45-70 are close enough that no change to the bolt face should be necessary.
The tricky thing is that the body of the .45-70 doesn't taper like the 7.62x54R. Cylinder vs. Cone. That makes the curvature (and maybe the fore-aft taper) of the magazines all wrong.
Trying to fabricate magazines is way beyond what a gun mangler like me can handle.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on February 19, 2010, 07:23:14 pm
The rims of 7.62x54R and .45-70 are close enough that no change to the bolt face should be necessary.
The tricky thing is that the body of the .45-70 doesn't taper like the 7.62x54R. Cylinder vs. Cone. That makes the curvature (and maybe the fore-aft taper) of the magazines all wrong.
Trying to fabricate magazines is way beyond what a gun mangler like me can handle.
What he said, expect that there is enough bolt face differnce to case trouble in some guns.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: FluffyHitman on February 19, 2010, 07:38:41 pm
So the PSL magazines are single-stacked? Pity, if they were double-stack I bet you could modify them to feed single-stacked .45-70 pretty easily. You would want a heavier barrel profile than most PSLs have for the .45-70, though. It's already pretty light even without shaving off another .14".
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: JesseL on February 19, 2010, 07:50:44 pm
So the PSL magazines are single-stacked? Pity, if they were double-stack I bet you could modify them to feed single-stacked .45-70 pretty easily. You would want a heavier barrel profile than most PSLs have for the .45-70, though. It's already pretty light even without shaving off another .14".
I think PSL mags are double stacked, but I'm still not sure how well they'll feed. Anyone willing to spend the money for a mag and box of .45-70 can figure it out easily enough though. Heck, paypal me $50 and I'll run over to J&G tomorrow and let you know ;D
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Penguin on February 22, 2010, 06:11:23 pm
That brings up a good question. Does anyone know of any Dragunov like weapons chambered for anything other than 7.62x54r? (and that's actually available and doesn't cost a billion dollars?)
Izhmash was making an SVD in a 9.3x64mm round. So I am sure you could get an SVD to fire a bigger round. I don't know if the russians ever adopted it though or what became of the design. At any rate we won't see them for sale around here any time soon. :banghead
So the PSL magazines are single-stacked? Pity, if they were double-stack I bet you could modify them to feed single-stacked .45-70 pretty easily.
The 10 round PSL mags are double stack. Though I would think that getting them to fit around other than the 54R would be hard. They aren't the easiest of mags to load. I think the big problem you would have would be the front of the mag is narrower than the rear. I am not sure you would be able to fit a long streight necked round in their. Though I am not very familier with the 45-70.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on March 02, 2010, 01:25:15 pm
I don't know that I'd put a 458 SOCOM on a Cavalry Arms MkII at this point in time.
So I don't normally like to link to other forums but I figured this was worthy... http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?t=8160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?t=8160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: HiVelSword on March 02, 2010, 01:30:13 pm
So I don't normally like to link to other forums but I figured this was worthy... http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?t=8160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?t=8160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Yeah, Tony is awesome. I'm glad I'm e-palz with him. He and Marty are the dynamic duo when it comes to rifles outside the norm.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on March 02, 2010, 01:50:29 pm
That's pretty sick, Harm. You should call Tony and ask him about doing one of your SIG's like that.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on March 02, 2010, 01:55:24 pm
He said he's going to do a couple more to see how fast he can do it, to see if it's feasible now that he knows what he's doing and then he'll post up on that forum about it. If he starts doing them I'll be adding another 556 to the stable and getting the treatment! It sounds like it's pretty likely though, he says the 556 takes just minutes longer than an AR to do the whole conversion, and it's much less time than the AK or Mini 14/30.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on March 02, 2010, 01:57:23 pm
He said he's going to do a couple more to see how fast he can do it, to see if it's feasible now that he knows what he's doing and then he'll post up on that forum about it. If he starts doing them I'll be adding another 556 to the stable and getting the treatment! It sounds like it's pretty likely though, he says the 556 takes just minutes longer than an AR to do the whole conversion, and it's much less time than the AK or Mini 14/30.
That sounds encouraging. We need to get you loading your own so you can be ready.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Nelson on March 10, 2010, 10:50:55 pm
hey, does any one know if there are any semi auto rifles in 45-70? like perhaps an ak-47 conversion? ;D i havnt shot the cartrige, which is probubly the only reason im asking.....
It's called a shotgun. ;D
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Slayer-72 on March 11, 2010, 02:30:35 pm
hmm, i always did want an AA-12. are those covered by a class 3, or are they "unsporting/destructive devices"?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Penguin on March 11, 2010, 10:18:26 pm
This is not a topic about shotguns. Please move that discussion elsewhere and get back on topic. Thank you.
I think my point was lost :bash damn ADD
My point is that a semiauto slug gun, firing .45 saboted bullets is ballistically, a semiauto 45-70.
I dont understand how something not designed to fire shot is considered a "shotgun". I also dont understand how, despite having a rifled barrel, it is not called a rifle...anyway, back on track: a semiauto rifled slug gun can fire 300-400+ grain bullets at 1600-1900 fps, to me, that is essentially a semiauto 45-70 without having to spend 1000s of dollars for a custom made semiauto. :hide
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on March 15, 2010, 10:48:47 am
Sorry Nelson, That seems a little light and a little slow to compare it to a 45-70. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35 (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35)
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Beamish on March 15, 2010, 11:14:36 am
Sorry Nelson, That seems a little light and a little slow to compare it to a 45-70. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35 (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35)
.45-70 Magnum 405 gr. J.F.N.(2,000fps/M.E.3,597 ft.lbs.)
Yeah...that'd leave a mark...
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on March 15, 2010, 11:16:29 am
Oh didn't realize I'd link'd to magnum loads. Side question since I didn't realize there WAS a 45-70magnum, what guns are chambered in it? I honestly don't think I've seen a magnum one before. Or is this just the names for the loading? I ask because I used to buy my 45-70 hunting ammo from Buffalo Bore. It was pretty potent stuff.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on March 15, 2010, 06:26:38 pm
Oh didn't realize I'd link'd to magnum loads. Side question since I didn't realize there WAS a 45-70magnum, what guns are chambered in it?
Not a chambering, just a name to seperate this +P+ load as you suspected. I don't personally load the 1895 Marlin to that level, as it is the point people start to have trouble with the locking bolt and recesses. The couple hundred fps isn't worth it. Now in a Ruger, High Wall repro or 1886 it is a different story.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Harm on March 15, 2010, 06:38:17 pm
Only1 - would that be a difference in power levels whether the Marlin 1895 was new or not?
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Nelson on March 15, 2010, 07:06:28 pm
Only1 - would that be a difference in power levels whether the Marlin 1895 was new or not?
Right from the manufacturer's site:
We use only factory stock firearms in recording velocities, so that you get true, actual field velocities with our ammo --- not exaggerated test barrel velocities
All .45-70 Magnum loadings are intended for use in the following firearms: All Marlin Model 1895 variations made since 1972 Browning Model 1885 and 1886 New England Arms Handi-Rifle Ruger #1 and #3 T/C Encore Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps New Production Winchester 1886
The 500 gr. load uses a dual diameter, bonded core bullet by Alaska Bullet Works. The bullet diameter in front of the crimp groove is .449 inch, while measuring .457 inch on the shank. This dual diameter allows for reliable chambering in rifles with short or no throats. This is a non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the deepest penetration on the largest game animals. This load is safe for use in any firearm designed for the other BBA .45/70 MAG. LEVER GUN cartridges.
When using Marlin Guide Guns with 18.5" barrels deduct an average of 50 fps from the charts below.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: only1asterisk on March 15, 2010, 07:26:41 pm
Only1 - would that be a difference in power levels whether the Marlin 1895 was new or not?
New as in since 1972, or new as in current production? The "new " 1895's are certainly stronger than the pre 1917 model of the same name. And while there have been refinements since the 336 based 1895 was introduced that increase the strength of the current model in some ways, the elastic limits of the parts involved is pretty much the ultimate limiter and hasn't changed much.
We aren't talking immediate catastrophic failure, but a shortening of the rifles useful life as the action gets progressively more loose.
Title: Re: 45-70 auto?
Post by: Cptcrazy01 on September 19, 2018, 11:43:01 pm
Yes, well sort of. Its a modified 45-70 gov' case called 45-70 Auto. Heres a link to it:
hey, does any one know if there are any semi auto rifles in 45-70? like perhaps an ak-47 conversion? ;D i havnt shot the cartrige, which is probubly the only reason im asking.....
Actually, yes. The Gatling Guns were/are technically semi-auto, as they were manually cranked. ;)