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Author Topic: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion  (Read 10165 times)

RMc

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30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
« on: November 07, 2019, 07:46:37 pm »
Looks like Lucky Gunner Ammo has hit all the bases on the 30 carbine and thrown in some comparisons with 30-06, 45acp and the 357 Magnum from a rifle.  Included is one "sleeper" soft point round that may be best for medium game hunting.   :hmm

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 08:10:49 pm »
    Good video.  I like his stuff.   Thanks for posting it for us.   :thumbup1

    I have always had a soft spot for the little .30 M1 carbine.  Light, fast handling, modest recoil, workable for game up to small deer size if you don't try to exceed the capabilities of the gun/cartridge combo.  For home defense they would seem to fill a slot somewhere between the semi-automatic pistol and the shotgun with some advantages over both.  They are very loud inside a structure and I've never seen one outfitted with a suppressor so there is that to consider.   They have also been either worn out or very expensive for the surplus guns for many years.  Newly manufactured copies of them are available but, again, fairly spendy in comparison to an AR pattern rifle as well as many self defense handguns and shotguns.   
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Langenator

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 09:34:06 am »
    I'm hoping that a written version of this is posted soon.

    Please tell me I'm not the only one who prefers written articles to vlogs...
    TexasFortuna Fortis Paratus

    LowKey

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 10:46:53 am »
    You are not. :coffee
    I'm hoping that a written version of this is posted soon.

    Please tell me I'm not the only one who prefers written articles to vlogs...

    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 02:05:50 pm »
    I think all of those are eventually posted in print form over at the Lucky Gunner site.  Which is how I prefer to get the info.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    RMc

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 02:55:41 pm »
    I think all of those are eventually posted in print form over at the Lucky Gunner site.  Which is how I prefer to get the info.   :thumbup1

    Lucky Gunner is one of the few sites that offer video and print in a complete and complementary manner.

    Rather long, so here is the link:

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/30-carbine-ammo-testing/
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    Langenator

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 06:22:28 pm »
    <Mr. Burns> Excellent!
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    MTK20

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 11:27:42 pm »
    That's one thing I've never understood. By the end of WW2, the M1 carbine had been the most issued rifle to Americans. It exceeded the M1 garand. So why do we see all of the CMP Garands for cheap? Why do movies and pop culture always show soldiers with M1 Garands and Thompson sub machine guns?  :shrug


    As a random note, I know someone who got shot by one. It was an accident by her brother. Through and through both knees, laterally. It was a cool story for a cool young woman, whom I had the privilege of meeting  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Langenator

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 08:02:39 am »
    I do know that a lot of M1 carbines ended up being used by law enforcement and prison guards, which probably accounted for a lot of them.  And however many we gave the South Vietnamese are never coming back.

    The intended users of the M1 carbine were support troops, and most movies, and such are made about troops in direct fire combat - infantry and tankers.  You don't see a lot of movies about artillery, much less the 122nd Mess Kit Repair Company.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #9 on: November 09, 2019, 01:00:10 pm »
    ^ This ^   Also, after the Korean war and before the Viet Nam war the M1 carbines were a lot cheaper than the M1 Garand rifles and so was the ammunition so they went out into the civilian population in large numbers pretty quickly.  That's one reason so many of the surplus ones you see on the market today look pretty worn out and beat up.  They tended to be used rather than put away in a safe and only brought out occasionally.

    Hopefully the price on the newly manufactured copies comes down a bit.  I could be tempted to pick up one if they weren't so pricey.  Reviews on the ones by Inland Manufacturing and Auto Ordnance-Kahr have been positive and the ammunition situation has gotten better as well.  If you don't have to pay too high a premium, it seems to be a viable alternative to the ubiquitous AR pattern rifles, the SKS carbines and the Ruger Mini 14 rifles.    :coffee
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 05:26:24 pm »
    I do know that a lot of M1 carbines ended up being used by law enforcement and prison guards, which probably accounted for a lot of them.  And however many we gave the South Vietnamese are never coming back.

    The intended users of the M1 carbine were support troops, and most movies, and such are made about troops in direct fire combat - infantry and tankers.  You don't see a lot of movies about artillery, much less the 122nd Mess Kit Repair Company.

    So if I understand correctly what you are saying,  the M1 garand saw the most frontline warfare . However, there are a great many more support troops, than frontline combatants?

    Is that why there were more M1 carbines produced?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    MTK20

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 05:30:09 pm »
    Btw, here's a quick glance at the current prices.

    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/30-carbine/firearms/rifles/?brand=30Carbine

    Ouch :hide.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #12 on: November 09, 2019, 11:43:36 pm »
    An excellent condition surplus rifle will sell for still more than any of those.  Assuming you can find one for sale. 

    The carbines were issued in every theater of the war and were carried by paratroops, infantry officers and NCO's, armored vehicle crews, artillery and mortar crews, signal corps officers and enlisted, and anyplace else that the main daily work of the personnel precluded the effective use of the full sized battle rifle.  Some of those were very definitely front line units. 

    The little carbines were easier and quicker to manufacture than the M1 Garand and other weapons typically issued to support troops and they were also sent to the British and the French who made use of them in commando units and organized resistance operations against the Nazi occupation forces. 

    Apparently priority was given to supplying the European theater and north Africa troops with all they needed before sending any significant number of them to the Pacific. 

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #13 on: November 10, 2019, 09:26:40 am »
    Apparently priority was given to supplying the European theater and north Africa troops with all they needed before sending any significant number of them to the Pacific. 

    Which is interesting, because the carbine was probably better suited to the sort of close range fighting found in the jungles warfare that especially characterized the early Pacific campaigns (New Guinea and the Solomon Islands through 1943), as opposed to the more open terrain of North Africa and the Med.

    Interesting trivia fact:  Even though the agreed upon U.S.-U.K strategy called for "Europe first", the U.S. military actually had more men in the Pacific theater until the beginning of 1944.  And that's even though Nimitz's central Pacific drive didn't start until November of 1943.
    TexasFortuna Fortis Paratus

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 11:23:32 am »
    Which is interesting, because the carbine was probably better suited to the sort of close range fighting found in the jungles warfare that especially characterized the early Pacific campaigns (New Guinea and the Solomon Islands through 1943), as opposed to the more open terrain of North Africa and the Med.

    Interesting trivia fact:  Even though the agreed upon U.S.-U.K strategy called for "Europe first", the U.S. military actually had more men in the Pacific theater until the beginning of 1944.  And that's even though Nimitz's central Pacific drive didn't start until November of 1943.

    My grandfather fought in the Pacific, and he always said they wanted the sub guns more than the carbine. He said you could get 45 ammo in greater quantity than the carbine ammo.
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    NukMed

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 12:57:56 pm »
    Many years ago as a newly married man I wrestled with the question of what arm would be most appropriate to provide to my wife for her use in home defense.

    Being a young soldier at the time, funds were in short supply, so it had to be economical.  Her stature being diminutive, it had to be light weight and low recoil.  Since it was strictly for home defense and didn't have to be toted around, it could be a long gun.

    Given the choices available in the early '90s, I landed on the M1 carbine.  At the time I could get one for $300.  At five pounds and a pinch, it is light, short, and handy.  Firing a projectile the same weight as a common .357 load, but at several hundred feet per second faster, I couldn't imagine it being any less effective than the famous man stopper, yet it was much more controllable for my wife than a magnum pistol.  I also found the 30 round capacity to be comforting.

    Sound or flawed, that was my logic decades ago.  We still have that old carbine.  Some complain about the reliability of the M1, but my experience has been pretty positive.  A few years ago, the wife got me a Blackhawk in .30 carbine for our anniversary.  It has made a fun companion to the long gun.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 03:50:02 pm »
    Good story - and a good choice, IMO.  I have fired those Blackhawks in .30 carbine.  Yikes! the muzzle blast is deafening from those 6" barrels.   :shocked  The one I fired was very accurate though - no problem at all hitting a two liter pop bottle at roughly a hundred yards if I did my part.
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    cpaspr

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 03:46:33 pm »
    I got given one several years ago that had been "modernized".  Someone had bubba'd it to fit a Mannlicher style stock that was available in the 70s.  The problem was that the back half of the stock was a duplicate of Mannlicher stocks for full size rifles.  High comb, and a 3/4" thick cheek pad.  To get my eye behind the peep sight I had to scrunch my cheek down low and force it in tight to the buttstock.  It worked, but barely.

    So, given the initial price I paid ($0), I figured if I screwed it up I could always get a new "original" stock and return it to original condition and still be money ahead, I proceeded to draw a line from buttpad to wristgrip with a sharpie, and laid it down on the scroll saw and whacked the riser off.  I then went to work with a palm sander and reworked the stock, shrinking the cheekpad down to about 3/8" in the same process.

    Now, it's a one-of-a-kind .30 Carbine.  Not worth anything to a collector, since it was already "ruined" when I got it.  But it's one of my funnest guns.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 04:12:38 pm »
     :thumbup1
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    LowKey

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 06:50:16 pm »
    Not a 30 Carbine, but one of the guns I found in my fathers safe after he passed was an old AR-7 fitted to some Bubba quality wood furniture that seems to be a copy of the M1 Carbine's.     
    It too is a fun little gun.

    Mikee5star

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 08:26:03 pm »
    I have kinda always thought of the .30 carbine and M1 as a head of it's time.  Lets replace a heavy, limited capacity, hard to train on weapon, and replace it with a comparatively hard hitting compact light rifle that uses similar sites to what we are already training everyone with in basic.

    .30 carbine is a long and powerful pistol cartridge.  I call it a pistol cartridge due to the fact that it has minimal taper, and a rebated rim.  Though it is too large for a revolver or pistol smaller something designed for the .357 mag or larger.  I think I remember some 1911s being built for .30 carbine.

    That said I like the idea of a pistol in the same caliber and using the same mags as a pistol caliber carbine for home defense.  So I am more likely to buy a AR style PCC that uses mags that interchange with one of my pistols over a M1 carbine.  But they are cool.
    Alaska

    cpaspr

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 03:04:06 pm »
    I have kinda always thought of the .30 carbine and M1 as a head of it's time.  Lets replace a heavy, limited capacity, hard to train on weapon, and replace it with a comparatively hard hitting compact light rifle that uses similar sites to what we are already training everyone with in basic.

    .30 carbine is a long and powerful pistol cartridge.  I call it a pistol cartridge due to the fact that it has minimal taper, and a rebated rim.  Though it is too large for a revolver or pistol smaller something designed for the .357 mag or larger.  I think I remember some 1911s being built for .30 carbine.

    That said I like the idea of a pistol in the same caliber and using the same mags as a pistol caliber carbine for home defense.  So I am more likely to buy a AR style PCC that uses mags that interchange with one of my pistols over a M1 carbine.  But they are cool.

    There are new production M-1 Carbines in 9mm.  Chiappa has one.  So does Citadel (at least according to this article (https://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/citadel-m1-9mm-carbine/#axzz655z3Jb5X)).  The Cidadel one uses Breetta 92 style mags. 

    I saw a used one at the LGS last week, though I don't recall who made it.
    Oregon

    RMc

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #22 on: November 14, 2019, 08:08:59 pm »
    Well, in the early 1960s the M1 Carbine was the among the least expensive and readily availabe autoloading centerfire rifles, selling to NRA members through the DCM for $17.50!* 


    * If you are interested: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


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    RMc

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #23 on: November 14, 2019, 08:21:32 pm »
    Another observation:

    Two 15 round carbine magazines also fit in WWII/Korean war magazine pouches originally designed to fit two 8 round en-bloc M1 rifle clips.  :hmm  Perhaps the 15 round capacity of the original carbine magazine was chosen for that very reason.
    « Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 09:02:35 pm by RMc »
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    wyatt

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    Re: 30 Carbine hard penetration and gel expansion
    « Reply #24 on: November 14, 2019, 08:26:47 pm »
    Well, in the early 1960s the M1 Carbine was the among the least expensive and readily availabe autoloading centerfire rifles, selling to NRA members through the DCM for $17.50!* 


    * If you are interested: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/



    That calculator is pretty cool! Now I'm going to be up all night calculating!

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