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Author Topic: What to do with these bullets?  (Read 11057 times)

Coronach

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Re: What to do with these bullets?
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 09:47:56 am »
Caution: I don't know a whole lot about reloading, so verify that anything I tell you is safe before you try it.

What gun are you loading it for? If you own a .45 revolver, could you not load it up and CAREFULLY use it as range ammo? I know that using it for an autoloader is probably bad (setback and pressure issues), but it seems to me that if you can set it to a consistent depth you can use it for a revo. Worst case is the gun works as a kinetic bullet puller, and you have to load them single-shot (or the first cylinder in a gun loaded with other ammo).

A PITA, but it would beat junking them or manually splitting 700 cases.

Mike

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    Coronach

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #26 on: May 01, 2012, 09:48:56 am »
    If you don't own a .45 revolver, now you have an excuse ...

    Mike

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    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 04:09:01 pm »

    What gun are you loading it for?

    Mike

    Ruger P90 .45 ACP (and before anyone disses it, it was a gift, not a choice).

    If you own a .45 revolver, could you not load it up and CAREFULLY use it as range ammo? I know that using it for an autoloader is probably bad (setback and pressure issues), but it seems to me that if you can set it to a consistent depth you can use it for a revo. Worst case is the gun works as a kinetic bullet puller, and you have to load them single-shot (or the first cylinder in a gun loaded with other ammo).

    Not a bad idea Mike.  But what is weird is that the first 250 loaded just fine.  Cannot move the bullet by pushing on them.  And roughly 100 of the next 150 will be okay.  Though I was able to push them down in the case, they would only go in a little, leaving them at about 1.240" OAL.  The first 250 were around 1.267" OAL.

    A PITA, but it would beat junking them or manually splitting 700 cases.

    So far I only have 40+ to pull apart, though that is plenty.  Roughly 300 bullets to go.  But I want to figure out what I screwed up, since the first 250 loaded so perfectly.


    If you don't own a .45 revolver, now you have an excuse ...

    I wish!  But it will never fly past SWMBCIAT.
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 12:10:43 pm »
    Update -

    I re-examined the rounds that were working, then manually assembled a round with no powder by simply pushing a bullet into a sized and belled case.  And I think I figured out the problem.  When I seat the bullets deep enough to stay within the 1.275" maximum OAL, the diameter of the bullet at the case mouth is .445" to .446" for most of these.  The base of the bullet is .450", but right at the neck it is less.  Remember that these are pulled bullets.  Almost all had a groove about .020" up from the base.  I assumed that was a manufacturing thing.  As I sorted through all the remaining bullets I found a couple last night that didn't have that groove.  They also didn't have a bevel just below it that was common to the rest of the bullets.  I'm guessing here, but I think the groove is from the crimp that was applied when they were originally loaded, and the bevel below the groove was caused in the same process.

    My wife asked me if there was any way to salvage them.  I told her they could probably be loaded out longer using the wider diameter of the base of the bullet and shot in a revolver, but I don't have one.  (Thanks Mike!)  That got me thinking though.  What if I load one out longer than recommended max OAL?  So, I tried it.  1.290" will load in my magazines and will chamber in my gun without jamming the bullet into the lands.  And, the bullet is tight in the neck of the case.  No more pushing back into the case.  I do think I need to up the powder charge though, to compensate for the increase in case capacity.  Right now they're all getting 4.0gr of Clays.  Max load is 4.3gr, so I have a little room to move up.

    Comments?  Opinions?  Am I crazy?
    Oregon

    Coronach

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 10:29:46 pm »
    Beyond my ken. I defer, as I have an affinity for my face and fingers and I assume that you do as well. My concern would be that the gun would act as a kinetic bullet puller and you may have one unseat in the mag. I would view it as being more likely under this scenario, since the bullets would be seated more shallowly. If it happened, I don't know if that would cause merely a tie-up or if there is a possibility of something more dire (like moving beyond proper OAL, catching on the ramp, then being shoved REALLY far back when the slide moves up, then going into the chamber like your own personal IED).

    Mike
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    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #30 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:54 pm »
    Good points Mike.

    In fine-tuning it, I find that I can load them out only a little longer than max, and they work fine. 

    Good point about the personal IED though.

    I did load a couple from the top of a mag with the slide locked open.  Slingshot method (slungshot?, slingshotted?) and they didn't change their OAL.

    Oregon

    Outbreak

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #31 on: May 03, 2012, 11:51:29 pm »
    I load my .40 way longer than spec. Just gotta crimp the s___ out of it but never had one fall apart in the mag.
    TexasOutbreak

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #32 on: May 04, 2012, 12:55:57 am »
    Best advice? 

    Step one-  Don't go near that press and die set up this weekend.  Do something else entirely.  NEXT week? 

    Take a deep breath, then-Loosen all the lock rings on these dies, and start your set-up over from scratch while going through the instructions.

    You'll find your troubles somewhere in there, be it bad set-up or faulty components.

    I've been through it a time or two myself. 
     
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #33 on: May 07, 2012, 03:40:29 pm »
    I know this has digressed from my original question, as I initially thought my options would end up being to either melt them down somehow or find a black powder shooter who could patch them up a bit.  But we've gone on for so long with it off the original topic that I thought I'd see it a little further.

    So . . .

    Thanks for that wisdom, Norseman.

    Unfortunately, by the time I read it, I had already loaded the rest of the bullets out to about 1.290", those that didn't push down in.  That gave me about 180 more "good" rounds, and about 160 or so to disassemble with the kinetic puller.

    HOWEVER.  All the wisdom of the response was not wasted.

    I didn't do any assembly of bullets till late last night, only disassembly.

    For the .45 ACP, my Dillon dies are the older style, so I went looking for Dillon specific instructions, since each manufacturer has their own instructions (some say install a die till it touches, others say install their version of the same die till it's the thickness of a nickle (or a matchbook) off the shellplate, etc.).  I haven't actually found those instructions yet, as I got sidetracked.  I found a thread where someone was grousing about his 550b messing up all his loads.  He received several suggestions to make sure the shellplate was tightened down properly (which, along with mis-allignment, was his problem).  Well, I looked at my press, and OOPS!, shellplate was not tight enough.  Brought up the instructions and re-set the shellplate to the correct tension.  Loaded one round (after re-setting the seating die to the correct depth) and it came out perfect!

    So, I ran one of the previous 180 overlength rounds in at station 3 and seated it a bit deeper, then back through the LCD again.  Again, perfect!  Finished that box of 30, and they all were correct length and with no pushback into the cases.  My next task will be to run the other rounds I have assembled back through, to shorten the overlong ones and so the FCD can actually do what it is intended with all the rounds, without the slop in the shellplate not allowing it to actually work.

    Only after that will I re-set each die (after making sure the shellplate is still tensioned correctly) per the manufacturer's instructions, and start over on the roughly 160 bullets remaining.  BUT!  Just to be on the safe side . . . no R-P shells for these last few bullets.
    Oregon

    Outbreak

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #34 on: May 07, 2012, 06:52:12 pm »
    :facepalm

    When I change calibers on my 650, I just follow the book, step-by-step, and I've never had anything come loose on the press. My rounds are all pretty consistent, measuring 5 or so random samples out of every 100.

    Somebody remind me to check that on my press next week.
    TexasOutbreak

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    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #35 on: May 07, 2012, 10:55:37 pm »
    I didn't really think of it, since .45 ACP was the last caliber I ran through the 550.  But that's a good practice to get into.
    Oregon

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #36 on: May 07, 2012, 11:37:18 pm »
    Quote
    As I sorted through all the remaining bullets I found a couple last night that didn't have that groove.  They also didn't have a bevel just below it that was common to the rest of the bullets.  I'm guessing here, but I think the groove is from the crimp that was applied when they were originally loaded, and the bevel below the groove was caused in the same process.

    Yup.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 03:12:47 pm »
    So, does that mean someone applied a roll crimp to them?  I didn't think a taper crimp could get in that tight.
    Oregon

    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 10:54:59 pm »
    A heavy taper crimp will leave a groove.  In fact, I've actually seen a misadjusted seat/crimp die give a plated bullet a "muffin top".
    « Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:54:33 pm by THE NORSEMAN »
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Outbreak

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 02:15:16 am »
    A sizing die? How does a sizing die even touch a bullet?
    TexasOutbreak

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    coelacanth

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 03:26:19 am »
    Seating die?  :hmm
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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 11:55:45 pm »
    Post #38 fixed......... :doh  Nice catch guys.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Outbreak

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #42 on: May 10, 2012, 12:23:25 am »
    Ahhh....seating and/or crimp dies... :hmmm

    That makes a lot more sense.

    On that note, I know it's not the case in this particular situation, but if you're using lead bullets with wax lube, and your bullets start seating deeper and deeper, stick a dental pick up your seating and/or crimping die. You'll pull out a candle. Guess how I figured that one out.
    TexasOutbreak

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    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

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    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #43 on: May 12, 2012, 12:19:47 am »
    A heavy taper crimp will leave a groove.  In fact, I've actually seen a misadjusted seat/crimp die give a plated bullet a "muffin top".

    Yeah.  I just had a .38 special round that wouldn't feed for that exact reason.
    Oregon

    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #44 on: July 09, 2012, 03:17:21 pm »
    Back from the dead for a final update.

    Using non-R-P brass for the last few hundred, I was able to get a total of about 650 of the 700 loaded.  I could possibly get a few more if I keep trying, but some of these bullets have now been loaded into shells, failed the "squeeze between my thumb and finger" test, then pulled - several times, and I loaded them in previously untried shells each succeeding time.  So, those 50 or so will simply get melted down.

    What I found interesting by the end of all of this is that in addition to R-P, S&B cases were fairly consistent in their inability to hold the bullets.  Ditto some unknown brand that simply had four letters for a headstamp spaced evenly around the perimeter of the head.  I also had three really offbrand (TMV?, TMZ? or something like) that were so loose the bullet would slide in and out of the case with only finger pressure.  Those I disassembled by simply bouncing the kinetic puller against the palm of my hand.  Lightly.  I pulled the primers and tossed the cases in the scrap bucket.  If I find more of those in the future, I'll treat them like Amerc and simply trash them.
    Oregon

    txgho1911

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #45 on: August 16, 2012, 08:43:05 pm »
    Is it it possible those plated bullets would have faired better loaded for 44 special or mag to go through a rifle?

    Most bullets I have ever loaded for 45acp are .451 min. Exceptions would be the Remington golden saber that are banded.

    .452-.453 I understand are usually for 45 colt.
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    JesseL

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #46 on: August 16, 2012, 09:10:16 pm »
    Way over sized for a .44.

    All the modern ".44" caliber rounds use ~0.429" bullets.
    Arizona

    cpaspr

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #47 on: August 16, 2012, 09:59:31 pm »
    What Jesse said.

    And . . . much as I'd like to, I don't have a .44, of any variety.
    Oregon

    txgho1911

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    Re: What to do with these bullets?
    « Reply #48 on: August 18, 2012, 03:22:40 pm »
    I was thinking of a swagging to size them down. Make for cheap bowling pin rounds.
    Would wound the plating also I am sure.
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