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Author Topic: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?  (Read 14224 times)

BruceRDucer

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   /

   My problem started    when the LYMAN recipe did not mach up to the grains of propellant  that the LEE LOAD ALL and its chart specified.    Here is Lymans recipe:

IMR 800X powder (25 grains),   / Win 209 Primer,   /CB1114-12 Wad,   Producing 1270 f.p.s velocity
@ 9500 psi chamber pressure

   I really wanted that TWENTY FIVE GRAINS of powder.  After all, the supplies cost me a lot of money.

So far, so good. But then I pick up Lee's LOAD-ALL reloader Charge Tables and for this powder, hull, wad, etc, it tells me to use the .155 propellant bushing.

So far, so good. Then the

"Bushing Capacity Chart" indicates that the .155 bushing will drop only 23.7 grains of powder.

That's a 1.2 grain drop from the Lyman Chart.

Lee's Chart does offer an option for a .163 powder bushing, giving 24.9 grains which is close enough to the 25 grains promised by Lyman...BUT, Lee's chart indicates I can only use the .163 bushing if I shift to a NON-AA hull. It suggests the:

"Plastic shells with Paper Base Wad and Paper Shells"

Well I says to me self, they're screwing me around again. Why can't I use the WIN AA plastic hull like Lyman says, and use the .163 bushing and get 24.9 Grains anyway.

Being new, I'm careful, very careful indeed. So I'm asking....does the increase of 1.2 grains sound like a reasonable option?

    Anyway,  how it all turned out is this.  LEE's chart is all wrong, way off.  I had to recalculate exactly how much propellant dropped for each of the larger bushings.   I took three measurements per bushing.  This is the amount of propellant in GRAINS that I got.

___________________________________________________________________________________

 


 Here is my chart.


  Bushing Capacity Chart (rewritten by Bruce Bain)


.155  bushing,  loading IMR 800X

to get a 23.7  grain charge.

#1  = 20.5 grains,  #2  =   20.9 grains,   #3  =    21  grains
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


.163  bushing, loading IMR 800X,

#1 - 22.0 grains,   #2 =  22.2 grains,    #3 =  22.0 grains

_______________________________________________________

.171 bushing,  loading IMR 800X

#1 =  23.1 grains,   #2 =   23.4 grains,   #3 = 23.3 grains
__________________________________________________

.180 bushing,   loading IMR 800X

#1 =  24.9 grains,   #2 = 24.5 grains,   #3 =  24.2 grains


___________________________________________________________________________


« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:07:09 am by BruceRDucer »

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    Pat-inCO

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 12:49:13 am »
    You didn't mention how much shot you are pushing with that load.

    A one ounce load would be about 437Gr of lead. A 1-1/8oz load would be 492Gr of lead. That could produce significantly different pressure between them.
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    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 04:28:38 pm »
    Hi Pat-inCO

        Yeah, I  forgot to provide the load  weight.  It is  1 1/4 oz.   So again,  the recipe from LYMAN is:

      12 Gauge,   2 3/4"   shell,    1 1/4" oz lead shot,      IMR 800X powder (25 grains),   / Win 209 Primer,   ............
    /CB1114-12 Wad,   Producing 1270 f.p.s velocity
    @ 9500 psi chamber pressure

        This recipe is on page 177 of LYMANS   5th Edition Shotshell Reloading Handbook,  its the 4th recipe from the bottom of the page.

        Again, the whole fuss is that LYMAN says 25 grains is okay,  but Lee's LOAD-ALL  powder bushing only lets about 21 grains drop into the shell.  That's 4 grains short of what  LYMANS says is okay.

          Being sure LYMANS  recipe is safe,  I just found a much bigger Lee bushing, the .180 to get  about   24.2 to 24.9 grains.   There's a lot of variation in this Lee  shotshell press.  Does MEC do any better I wonder.  Lee varies about   .50 grains at any given time, and as much as .80 grains   periodically.

           Some don't seem to have noticed any problems when it comes time to shoot, so I guess the variation is okay. 

       

    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 12:30:09 am »
    My understanding on the subject is that MEC is the current standard by which others are judged for the home reloader.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2008, 07:52:06 am »
     /

       Yeah,  I ordered the MEC 600 yesterday.   

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #5 on: October 25, 2008, 09:24:43 am »
    Bruce-

    When you get it up and running, post a review for us, will ya?  I'm curious what you think of it. 

    Notice I said it's my "understanding"?  I'll have to admit to not reloading shotshells myself, but am thinking of getting into it.  Talking to those that do load alot of them, that's the name that kept coming up.  And when it did it was 99% positive.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #6 on: October 25, 2008, 12:24:45 pm »
           Norseman:

      I sure will give you a review of the MEC 600.

      I've learned a lot in the last few months.   For example,  it seems that when anyone  recommended LEE LOAD-ALL II,  they were only speaking in terms of a couple of things:

           (1)   shot loads of 1 1/8 oz  or LIGHTER,  never 1 1/4 oz loads

           (2)   The default loads of the Lee BUSHINGS,  which  actually deliver  as much as half a Grain   of powder less that specificied.

        ____________________________________________________________________________________

        The Lee will produce a shell which goes   "boom" and can do so for years.  But I want more accuracy in powder, and I want  1 1/4 oz loads.

    /
    « Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 04:31:04 pm by BruceRDucer »

    MarshallDodge

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #7 on: October 25, 2008, 02:14:36 pm »
    I don't have a lot of experience with different loads.  I pretty much stick to the recipe or a little lighter.

    I have two MEC's and have been very happy with them.  One is the Sizemaster that is setup for 410 AA Hulls and the other is the 600 Jr. setup for 2-3/4" 12 gauge AA hulls.  I have loaded hundreds of shells on both of them without any issues.

    I acquired the 600 with a Browning Citori about 15 years ago and the guy had it setup with the 302118 bar which is 1-1/8 oz of shot and it throws 16.5 gr. Hodgdon Clays.  This is a little on the light side but they run good in my son's Winchester 1400(gas semi-auto) and my HK/Benelli M1S90(inertia semi-auto).

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    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #8 on: October 25, 2008, 09:25:02 pm »

         Okay Marshall Dodge,   I ordered the MEC 600,  so when it comes,  will it have the CHARGING BAR I need for:

           1 1/4 oz  loads?

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    MarshallDodge

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #9 on: October 25, 2008, 09:43:55 pm »
         Okay Marshall Dodge,   I ordered the MEC 600,  so when it comes,  will it have the CHARGING BAR I need for:

           1 1/4 oz  loads?

    Sorry, I should have said CHARGE bar.  ;)

    According to MEC's site, it comes with the charge bar for 1-1/8 oz loads and three powder bushings:
    http://www.mecreloaders.com/ProductLine/600JrMark5.asp

    You could drill the shot hole bigger, they are made of aluminum.  Just make sure you mark the charge bar so you know what you did in the future.



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    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 11:11:01 am »

       Okay,  so I've included the 1 1/4 oz  Charge Bar for my press.  That's for the head's up about that.

       I am sure I can get use of the Lee LOAD-ALL.  It is quite a  useful bit of equipment.

        Whatever press I get, I intend to work with my factory bushings to acquire  precise  powder drops.

      A bushing is just a simple  stubby bit of plastic, shaped as a pipe.  I think  I might   add various  thicknesses of  black electrical tape to the inside,  reducing the size, to get slightly less powder.

       I might also use a Dremel tool to grind out a bushing that isn't dropping enough  powder.  If I take too much out,  a little 5 minute expoxy  can restore a small amount of   bushing wall.

      /

    /   

    seanp

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #11 on: November 02, 2008, 11:52:26 am »
    I have used the Lee-Load All for the past decade (or so?) and have found it to be an excellent tool as long as you recognize it's limitations.

    For example, when using the Load-All bushings, use the Lee Data, and nothing else.  Even then, you will find that the powder drops are not all that consistent.  The same is true of any un-metered mechanical drop.  If you want to be precise, use a good powder measure or scale to load your shells.

    I no longer load target shells, they are too cheap to buy right now for me to justify it, but I still use the Load-All to load hunting ammo.  But I only use the Load-All to decap, reprime, and crimp.  I measure powder on a scale, seat the wads and shot (also measured on a scale) by hand.  Of course, I am loading Hevi-shot, so the time it takes is worth it to me.  If it was lead or steel I might not be so picky.
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    alone

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    Re: Shotshell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #12 on: November 02, 2008, 06:48:11 pm »
    BruceRDucer,

    Maybe I missed it, still why do you need a 1 1/4 oz payload?

    I agree with a lot of points before me, such as understanding the limits of the Lee, and suggesting going with the MEC.

    Always mark bushing that have been Electrical tapped smaller, or bored out. Keep in mind, lots of powder vary so always re check what is thrown.

    In fact, keeping "that" set up for "that" load, in its own container is a good idea. Just a plastic box with the complete recipe.

    I personally DO NOT do Universal Charge Bars.  Gimme bars and bushings any day. The shotgun has been described akin to a grenade going off with its loadings and I prefer to play it safe and adhere to the 5 % +/-  safe rule on recipes.


    Shotgunning: The Art & Science - by Bob Brister  is for sure an appropriate name for that book, and all that has to do with shotguns!

    Keep in mind, it does not matter what a Shotgun mfg says, what a barrel or choke is marked, what a box of ammo says, or even a recipe says.

    Each shotgun barrel, and choke ( fixed or screw in) is an entity to itself.  The only way to know what works in your gun, is to actually shoot it at a pattern board.

    Forget the old "standard" of 30" at 40 yards.  Pattern the gun and load for actual use, at the distances you will  be using that load.

    Here is what has actually happened in my life experiences and observations.

    While the recipe said 18.5 of 452AA, one of my 12 bores preferred 17.2, one 18.0, and another 18.2.
    The differences were due to each barrel, forcing cone, and actual points of choke (POC)

    I actually wanted "near" 1200 fps,  actually getting it would have been fine, still 1145 would have been okay.
    These loads if memory served ran 1170- 1190 fps when chrono'd.
    Which is fine, as I had the pattern I wanted , and with the density I wanted.

    I actually prefer about 24" of spread instead of 30", for the density and pattern performance.

    Now that same loading , being a 2 3/4 dram equiv, is bumped to 3 dr by adding more powder, which is a safe recipe.
    For instance skeet used 2 3/4 and Trap 3 dr.

    Again, I tweaked the 3 dr equiv loading which if I recall correctly said to use 19.5 gr of 452AA. And again each barrel preferred a different actual thrown powder weight, to get the pattern density.

    I used to mess with all this stuff, had a lot of fun, and even had a Stan Baker Bore Diameter tool.
    Testing loads, forcing cones, bore diameters, chokes and what have you.

    Now, gimme a gun, some ammo, and just run with it.
    Trip trigger long enough and it don't make a hoot.  Just get on target and slap trigger.

    My pet Turkey load for instance I did up for a fella was 1 1/8 oz of hard #5 shot.
    Just tweaked a load I did for his gun, to fell ducks.

    I was the one using a 28 gauge to fell turkeys, ducks, geese, and whatever else, including...deer, using a 28 ga slug.

    We Americans think bigger is better.
    Our friends across the pond in the UK considered a 11/16 oz load ideal.
    1 1/8  a heavy load.
    1 1/4 oz a magnum load.

    Our UK friends might talk funny, like their tea and biscuits, eat fish-n-chips out of newspapers...
    They do know something about Shotguns, and Shotgun loads.

    I have the utmost respect for folks in the UK, just I have earned the right to be razzed by them, and I razz back.

    Hence the reason I ask why the need for a 1 1/4 oz load.

    Pellet deformity occurs when all them pellets , going at the rate akin to a grenade hit that forcing cone, vie  for room going down the barrel, and exiting the muzzle, where the choke is.

    "Sometimes" 1 1/8 oz allows for better pattern density , even with less total pellets than 1 1/4 oz, because them pellet did not deform.

    "Sometimes" backing a 1 1/4 oz  load down , within the 5% safe rule, gives better performance, again because less pellets were "smushed".

    Art & Science applies to Reloading, and not just with shotguns.


    -alone





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    goldy

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    Re: Shot shell Reloading: What have you learned, What presses are best?
    « Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 10:34:32 pm »
    +1 for Alone's response.

    I been shooting trap for only about 50 years, reloading all the time.

    More is not always better. Round ball ballistics slow inversely with speed. I.E. the faster it starts out, the faster it slows down. At about forty yards the velocity seems to even out regardless of the speed it started out.

    The more shot in the column, the more deformed pellets you get. [lead shot] These 'flyers' don't help the pattern.

    In all the trap shells I've played with 1150-1175 fps always gave the best patterns especially with slower burn rate  powders.

     I suppose it's normal for beginners to be obsessed with large, fast loads. Keep at it long enough and you too will come around.

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