Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Need input on this load  (Read 5181 times)

cpaspr

  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2282

  • Offline
Need input on this load
« on: August 30, 2009, 03:47:20 pm »
I've posted in the rifle section about the 30-06 I bought at the club swap meet.  The fellow who built it didn't like how the initial cases looked so took it back to polish out the chamber.  One week later, I kept 3 rounds of Remington 180gr rounds in 1.94" ctc at 100 yards, with the approximately 60 year old 4x scope.

Two weeks later, yesterday, I loaded up 5 groups of five rounds each.  IMR-4895 powder that was at least 25 years old (but still in perfect condition).  46.4 to 48.4 grains, in .5 grain increments.

I'm no marksman, so I'll just give the best 3 shot groupings out of each 5 (the 5-shot groups were still deer-kill-zone sized):

46.4 - 1.950" ctc
46.9 - 0.966" ctc  (all 5 was 2.825" ctc)
47.4 - 1.400" ctc
47.9 - 1.555" ctc
48.4 - 0.862" ctc  (all 5 was 1.671" ctc)

The last three sets were all fired back to back, starting with the 48.4 group.  No cool-down time between, as I was running out of light.
__________________________

All that to get to this, my questions:

My 1971 Sierra manual has flat base loads ranging from 44.4 grains (2600 fps) to 50.4 (2900 fps).

Hodgdon has a starting load at 49.0 grains with a max load of 53.0 grains for a 150 gr Nosler boat-tail bullet. 

I'm using Hornady flat-base bullets.  Spire points on both.

I know that when not using the exact same components as the recipes, start low and work up.  However, it seems odd that Hodgdon would have a starting load for a longer bullet (BT vs FB and thus seated deeper) that is at almost the max load in the Sierra book.

Has the formulation for IMR-4895 changed that much since my powder was new?  If not - I'm confused.  I can see them dropping upper limit recommendations due to lawyers et al, but not raising them.



Oregon

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 06:35:30 pm »
    Quote
    I know that when not using the exact same components as the recipes, start low and work up.  However, it seems odd that Hodgdon would have a starting load for a longer bullet (BT vs FB and thus seated deeper) that is at almost the max load in the Sierra book.

    Maybe, but it could be bullet shape too.  Less drag in the bore= lower pressures.  This requires more powder to generate the needed pressure to obtain the desired velocity. Make sense?

    As for you load-  The closest thing the Hornady 5th edition lists is 4895 under a 178 match bullet in the Garand specific section, with charge weights from 38.0 to 46.1.

    Basically, you can keep using 4895/180 combo if you want(or if that's all you have), but there are much more efficient combinations out there.  4895 is at its best with 150 or lighter slugs in the '06.  Under those 180s, I'd recommend 4350 or H414.

    Any chrono data?

     

    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 10:56:00 am »
    Sorry.  It was obvious in my mind, though upon re-reading, not obvious in the post.

    The original three shot group was with 180 grain factory Remington rounds.

    My reloads were all 150 grain loads.

    No chronograph.
    Oregon

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 08:00:21 pm »
    Actually, that's good.  You have a powder/slug combo that can/should preform well then. I missed the detail farther down in your post.

    Hornady 5th Edition still doesn't list that powder/slug combo for some reason though.  However-  in the Garand specific section they list 41.5 to 46.4 under a 155 boat tail.

    I would look really hard at your 48.4 grain cases.  If they show no signs of over pressure, and you didn't have a sticky bolt at all, I'd see if that accuracy can be repeated.  If so, I'd stick with it and start playing with your seating depth to fine tune the load.  I don't recommend you go any higher than that without a chrono to watch for erratic velocities though.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 09:41:55 pm »
    According to the guy I bought the gun from, cases usually only expand a couple of thousanths beyond factory.  The original 180 grain rounds expanded 6 thousanths, so he apparently reamed the chamber a bit oversize.  Still within spec, but bigger than he wanted.  If I've deduced correctly, from some other reading I've recently done (responses on other sites), the oversize chamber will help prevent overpressure with these loads.  My brass may not last as long, but I shouldn't have to worry as much about overpressure rounds.  Not that I intend to go beyond max loads; I don't.  Just that I don't need to worry if they start to approach the top end in acheiving the most accurate load.

    By the way, they extracted fine, and I didn't notice any problems with the cases at the time.  I'll examine them all more carefully soon.

    I'll get them chrono'd soon as well, but reloading time is at a premium right now.
    Oregon

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 10:30:56 pm »
    Quote
    According to the guy I bought the gun from, cases usually only expand a couple of thousanths beyond factory.  The original 180 grain rounds expanded 6 thousanths, so he apparently reamed the chamber a bit oversize.  Still within spec, but bigger than he wanted.  If I've deduced correctly, from some other reading I've recently done (responses on other sites), the oversize chamber will help prevent overpressure with these loads.

    He's correct.  In a normal chamber, and normal pressures you'll see a couple thousandths expansion.

    Your deduction is a bit off though.  Large chamber+ standard spec size brass will equal early high pressure signs usually.  The case is just a gasket as it were, the chamber takes the real working pressures.  So with standard sized cases and a slightly large chamber, the brass WILL expand to fill the chamber.

    Slightly oversize chamber?  Just shortens brass life a bit.  Usually you'll have sooty case necks from incomplete case to chamber seal.

    Moderately oversize chamber?  Gives you early high pressure signs(usually case flow of one form or another)

    Severely oversize chamber?  Dangerous to shoot.  You run the risk of case failure as the case tries to expand enough to fill the chamber. and high pressure 2-3 THOUSAND degree combustion gasses being uncontainable after case failure.....
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 12:50:46 pm »
    I admit to ignorance.  Is the 6/1000 slightly, moderately, or excessively oversize?
    Oregon

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 08:29:03 am »
    Six thousandths where?  Too deep, too large of diameter where the case body would be?
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 11:16:00 am »
    Hopefully this will show correctly:

                 |    |
            --> |    | <--   6/1000 here, right above the shoulder.  Necks are all slightly sooty.
                /       \
              /           \
        --> |            |  <--   3/1000 here and even less below
             |            |   
    Oregon

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 10:13:54 pm »
    That's odd.  A chamber reamer should be the correct dimensions that way, just too shallow or too deeply bored. 

    The neck area being too large will ALWAYS give you sooty necks, as the brass won't expand enough to seal the neck area of the chamber effectively.  Best bet?  If you can live with the chamber as is, run  brass that has thick necks.  That may help a little.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    only1asterisk

    • Just some guy, you know?
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2408

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 01:04:47 pm »
    The fired case neck is .006 over a factory loaded round?  That's a shade big, but tolerances stack up. You expect the case neck to expand some.  Say your reamer is .001 oversize and the factory brass is .001 thin.  That would be enough. You are measuring with dial calipers?  That's +/- .001 right there.  

    You say the guy polished the chamber?  Enthusiastic "polishing" might account for a thousandth.  The main thing is, while your case neck might be a touch bigger than you might like, it isn't a serious flaw in a hunting rifle.  Lots of them leave the factory in worse condition.

    The shoulder expansion is expected in new factory brass and is 100% acceptable.
    « Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 01:11:40 am by only1asterisk »

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 03:55:52 pm »
    I don't recall where specifically on the case he mic'd when he made the "6/1000ths" remark.  I was thinking it was just above the head, but I wasn't watching him intently at the time.

    Which is where he noted the marks on the fired cases he didn't like.  That is where I thought he was going to polish the chamber, just above the case head. 

    My drawing is in regards to cases I fired compared to cases I full-length resized, not to factory.  I'll have to mic the factory cases and get that amount updated later.

    Thanks for the continued input.
    Oregon

    only1asterisk

    • Just some guy, you know?
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2408

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 04:30:30 pm »
    My drawing is in regards to cases I fired compared to cases I full-length resized, not to factory.  I'll have to mic the factory cases and get that amount updated later.

    If that's the case, you should be good to go.  Let us know what the necks measure when the bullet is in place.

    THE NORSEMAN

    • To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. - Richard Henry Lee
    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5071

    • Offline
    Re: Need input on this load
    « Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 09:44:46 pm »
    In the future when you include case dimension measurements-

    Tell us whether you're measuring new, fired, or sized brass.  The dimensions SHOULD be different in every case, but if we don't know which state your brass is in, it's tough to give you meaningful advice..

    Keep us updated!

    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2282

    • Offline
    Re: Case dimensions
    « Reply #14 on: September 05, 2009, 12:44:35 pm »
    I'm sorry for the confusion.

    I've never had a gun with an aftermarket, bored to order, barrel.  I didn't know what information was needed that might be missing till you asked.

    The loaded Remington factory 180gr cases measure .335" where the neck meets the shoulder.
    The fired Remington factory cases (from the same box) measure .341".  The fired reloaded Remington cases measure .340"-.341".  The fired Winchester and SuperSpeed cases measure .340".
    My full-length re-sized cases measure .335" for two Remington and one FC cases and .333"-.3335" for a couple of Winchester cases.

    I just seated bullets in one of the resized Remington cases and the resized .333" Winchester case.  Base of the bullet inside the case is just a hair above the neck/shoulder point.  Both measure .335" after seating the bullet.
    _________________

    I just re-examined the fired original cases that started this whole potential problem.  Measured up from the case head, at .300" to about .452" the fired case swelled from .466" up to .469", with visible ridges you can feel with your thumbnail, then dropped back down to .465".  That area after he polished the chamber no longer has the ridges, but is still the same size on fired cases.  The factory unfired dimension there appears to be .461".  The resized dimension in this area appears to be .461"-.462".
    Oregon

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.