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Author Topic: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?  (Read 12281 times)

Grant

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Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
« on: March 20, 2011, 07:47:29 pm »
   First: Any responses with +P listings: Either read the disclaimer at the top, or PM me with load details.

   I realize this is...a wee bit foolish/unnecessary.

Anyway.   I been looking at 9mm loads and have come up with three things.
#1.   I've settled on the Speer Gold Dot 124 +P load for carry, it's accurate enough, pretty controllable and has good numbers.  It's a tough bullet and well known.    If Some winchester +P+ 127T's are in stock somewhere when I order, I might try some out.

#2.  Regardless, the 9mm is well suited for 115 grain bullets.    The problem is either:
A.  They don't go fast enough.
B.   When they do, they don't use a tough enough bullet.
  I really looked long and hard at the Winchester Ranger +P+ 115 grainers.  However they were standard JHPs, not real tough, same with Federal +P+ loadings they have.    The closest thing I came on is occasionally speer gold dot +P 115 show up. 

#3.  Almost everything I've shot, XTP bullets shrink groups.  Seriously, the stuff seems "magical" in the fact that it is an accurate bullet.      However from what I hear (and have sorta seen in 3 recovered from deer) they require velocity to expand reliably.

   Anyway.    It wouldn't be a often-used combination, but I'm thinking a 115 XTP, at about 1300FPS (Winchester and Federals +P+ both say 1350, so I'm assuming really about 1300FPS).    I don't think I'd use it for concealed carry (sticking with factory loads for that), but I'd like to have 3-4 boxes around, partly to have "just in case", and also to stick in my 9mm for backup when I'm hunting.   

    Not set on it, just kicking the idea around and wondered what other folks are using?   

Edit: paused in writing and looked at two things:
Ken Waters Pet Loads lists a 115 "hornady JHP" at 1277 FPS.
Ammotogo has 115 grain +P+ Gold Dots in stock and Black Hills +P Barnes XP 115 grainers at 1250FPS.....
Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #1 on: March 20, 2011, 08:05:18 pm »
    Grant-  Two things here, both of critical importance:

    1.  You NEED a chronograph to pursue this.  Along with being very comfortable in it's use.

    2.  You must be absolutely crystal clear on recognizing pressure signs.  9MM is a low volume high pressure round with a very small window of error when you push things.


    With that out of the way, see here: http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Handgun-Reloading-Data-2006.pdf  Vit powders are spendy, but damn clean burning, and extremely consistent as well.  3N37 or N350 should serve you well.  Also, in low light conditions, 3N37 is very low flash to boot.

    Were it me, I would be using Federal or Starline cases, Winchester if I had to, but I wouldn't use Remington brass.  And I'd use either Federal or CCI primers.  YMMV, but that's what I'd do.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Outbreak

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 05:34:46 am »
    I know a load. I'll never touch it, but I know a guy who needs his 9mm hot to run the compensator on his race gun. Super hot compressed powder load.

    He takes a new case, fills it full of Vit(not sure which one; I'll ask) scrapes the excess off level with the case mouth, and jams a cast truncated cone bullet in it. He leaves the brass. Even he doesn't trust it after he's fired that load.

    I'm not joking for a second. Violates every spec in the book. But it goes fast, and in that gun, shoots like a .22.
    TexasOutbreak

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    Grant

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #3 on: March 21, 2011, 08:13:55 am »
     
    I know a load. I'll never touch it, but I know a guy who needs his 9mm hot to run the compensator on his race gun. Super hot compressed powder load.

    He takes a new case, fills it full of Vit(not sure which one; I'll ask) scrapes the excess off level with the case mouth, and jams a cast truncated cone bullet in it. He leaves the brass. Even he doesn't trust it after he's fired that load.

    I'm not joking for a second. Violates every spec in the book. But it goes fast, and in that gun, shoots like a .22.
    YOW....I don't think I could do that  :o

     Norseman, I appreciate the advice ;) A chronograph is definately in the next Midway order.   As for reloading, I am not the one doing it, I'm trusting my dad too.  He's loaded a heckuva lot of rounds and has stepped up about every load he has at least once.     His "pinnacle", is when he first got a .22-250 and loaded up a few batches of bullets that required a hammer to tap the bolt open  ::)  Course that was intential.   

     He only uses CCI and Federal primers.     As for cases, sounds good I'll grab some federals.  I'm actually thinking of picking them up with +P markings on the headcases just to make sure it's noticably differant.
       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    only1asterisk

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 11:24:06 pm »
    You need to be really careful with the crimp.  Any bullet setback in this type of load will have dire consequences.
    I also suggest Starline brass and a system to track how many times they've been fired.

    Grant

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 11:33:05 pm »
      Good advice.

    This will be the first time for a 9mm, but dad's hotrodded a bunch of his revolver rounds. .44 mags, .45 colt, .500 S&W,etc. he's loaded right "to" the top and tried a fraction above.....Dunno if I'd go that far but...

    I've been doing some looking and I think for what very few rounds of it I'd fire, maybe the +P+ 115 gold dots would be okay.   Don't know, maybe they'd expand to quickly to be a "minimum" hunting cartridge.

     
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 11:34:54 pm »
    I strongly suggest a couple more things here:

    1.  No more than 3 or 4 firings per case at the top end of things like this.

    2.  The +P headstamp is an excellent choice, but I'll add to it-  Make sure all the brass you use for this run up came from the same lot number.

    Edit:  The Gold dot is an EXCELLENT high speed choice.  If you overspeed them the petals just fold back against the slug body.  Not an ideal situation, no, BUT, a lot better than a slug that explodes or experiences jacket/core separation.  Hornady's XTP line of slugs have proven themselves to be very tough critters as well.
    « Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:54:57 pm by THE NORSEMAN »
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    only1asterisk

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 11:47:38 pm »
    1.  No more than 3 or 4 firings per case at the top end of things like this.

    I think I'd load it 3 times retire it to a life of cast bullet plinking loads. 

    Grant

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 08:08:07 am »
    I'm deliberating on if it's even worth it  :hmm  Although it ain't end-all on a gun, it's still some good wear and tear.....for what? A +P+ 9mm still...115 at 1300 FPS?   I might as well just start using my .357 Sig barrel.... :hmm
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    only1asterisk

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 11:27:51 am »
    I'm deliberating on if it's even worth it  :hmm  Although it ain't end-all on a gun, it's still some good wear and tear.....for what? A +P+ 9mm still...115 at 1300 FPS?   I might as well just start using my .357 Sig barrel.... :hmm

    Don't be discouraged, this is just the next step in handloading.  Don't worry about the gun, a little +p is just a brisk workout.  There are IPSC shooters running 124's @ 1350fps+ from their comp'd 9mm Glocks.

    PS. Check out the Max load (CIP spec) with N350 under the 115 XTP: http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Handgun-Reloading-Data-2006.pdf

    « Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:23:25 pm by only1asterisk »

    Grant

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #10 on: March 25, 2011, 01:02:50 pm »
     Oh I ain't discourage ;D  I won't be doing "these" shells, but I am slowly learning a teeny bit about it, and will be practicing on some easier loads.

       First.....I gotta get a chrony, and find someplace that has that powder :hmm  Better check that chronagraph  thread that's up above  ;D
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #11 on: March 25, 2011, 01:13:07 pm »
    I'm deliberating on if it's even worth it  :hmm  Although it ain't end-all on a gun, it's still some good wear and tear.....for what? A +P+ 9mm still...115 at 1300 FPS?   I might as well just start using my .357 Sig barrel.... :hmm

    The Illinois State Police 9mm was 1350 fps from a 4 inch Smith and Wesson barrel - and it never resulted in "too many shots to stop a suspect." 

    Also, note that the original P.08 Luger was designed to handle rounds screaming out of its barrel at 1312 feet per second.  We only ended up with the more modern "gelded 9mm" when WWII trophies - ie: late war German built pistols - tended to fall apart due to sloppy welds and pot metal assembly. 

    9mm is s'posed to be hot and quick.  Otherwise, why not just use a .45 with 185 grain low velocity soft-lead target loads? (God, John Moses Browning and Colonel Cooper - the holy trinity - intended the 1911 to be used with 200 grains on a stout charge with a good, flat point - minimum.)
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    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 01:10:47 am »
    Quote
    9mm is s'posed to be hot and quick.
     Yup, the whole idea being a lightweight, light recoiling, high cap gun.  The 9mm cartridge's main attribute is speed.  

    I have made 9mm go, um, "stupid fast" in a convertible blackhawk, at more than likely "very stupid" pressures had I possesed the equipment to measure it.  One of those things you do just because.  It all boils down to this in reality-  With it's small case capacity, the 9mm will have a very narrow window of powders with appropriate characteristics that will give you the most velocity possible with acceptable pressure curves.  

    Ideally, you want a powder that gives you right at about 105% of case volume(slightly compressed) while giving you the highest possible velocity without going over-pressure.  If you hit pressure signs with air space still under the slug, switch to a slightly slower burning powder and start over, as you're wasting available case volume.  On the flip side, if you aren't getting the velocity you want or expect before running out of case capacity, switch to a slightly faster powder, and work back up.  Somewhere in the process you'll find the sweet spot for a given cartridge in a specific gun.  This is assuming the reader is comfortable with the use of a quality chronograph, and is knowledgeable in the process known as "chrono-mapping".  Use of data outside of currently published norms is done at the sole risk of the individual doing so.  Neither WTA or it's staff are responsible for the results of such actions.
    « Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 01:43:39 am by THE NORSEMAN »
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 01:35:50 am »
    "stupid fast?"  I are intrigued.   :hmm
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Grant

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 01:45:26 am »
     I wonder if he got to the point of triggering it with a looong string  :hmm

      ;D
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Outbreak

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 08:45:14 am »
    I wonder if he got to the point of triggering it with a looong string  :hmm

      ;D

    Hell, I'm almost at that point with my .22LR pistols! :neener
    TexasOutbreak

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    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    THE NORSEMAN

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    Re: Load request? Favorite +P/+P+ 115 XTP in 9mm?
    « Reply #16 on: March 26, 2011, 07:58:17 pm »
    Gone one day, and look what you guys are up to.......... :bash

    Grant, in all seriousness, using a blackhawk convertible, I'll admit I pushed it much harder than I should have.  But, understand I was using powders I've had a lot of experience with, and a chrono that I trusted, also I was hand trickling charges in .1 grain increments.  Even with that amount of caution, I went from no pressure signs to leaking primers and nearly stuck cases within a .2 grain difference.  Hence the warnings...........

    I will add this specific warning-  If, even with no other pressure signs present, you get a drop in velocity with an increase in powder charge?  Back off!!!!  That powder is not happy, it is outside its preferred pressure range, and will behave completely unpredictably.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

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