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Author Topic: 9mm bullets keyholing:  (Read 8849 times)

Grant

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9mm bullets keyholing:
« on: April 17, 2011, 06:14:21 pm »
  Okay, I'm posting for my dad a question:

  Awhile back he loaded up a bunch of 9mm lead bullets (I think the box was Hornady) and never go around to shooting more than a half dozen for function. 

Well they keyhole out of every 9mm we got.  Miked a bullet: .354.  Okay, no biggy, a batch of undersized bullets.

 Well, he's reloading some 9mm's for his Kel-tec P11.

  Here's the deal:
 The 115 grain XTP's he handloaded for his Ruger P95 keyhole in the Kel-tec.  They do NOT...keyhole in 3 other full-size 9mm's (Including my 3.9" barrel sig), but they do keyhole about 1 in 3 shots out of the kel-tec.

   He tried Speer 124 grain Gold Dots: Same deal, they keyhole out of the P11 and not his Ruger.   The load he tried both 3.6 grains and 4.2 grains of Bullseye and Remington primers.   

  Factory ammo does NOT...keyhole out of the Kel-tec. 

Any idea?   I've never heard of jacketed 9mm bullets keyholing.

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 10:54:42 pm »
    Barrel on the larger side, with a crimp on the heavy side could do it.  Pull a slug he's already loaded and mic it vs. a new one.
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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 11:44:38 pm »
    I've only seen that when they are loaded too slow.  Rifling doesn't spin them enough to stabilize.
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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 12:01:08 am »
    4.2 of Bullseye under a 124 grain slug in 9mm should not be anywhere near slow enough to not stabilize.  That load should be clipping along at about 1,000 fps flat.
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    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 01:11:34 am »
    Even out of a short barrel?
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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 01:22:42 am »
    Given Bullseye's burning rate, I'd say no less than 900 out of that short of a barrel.

    Given the small powder charge, another thought though-

    Do you have check weights Grant?  Are you SURE the powder charges you're posting are accurate?
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    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Grant

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 08:10:44 am »
     Yeah, considering it was for a self-defence round, dad was weighing almost every charge.

      4.2 Bullseye, I THINK...was estimated at about 1100 from a 4", probably about 1000 from a 3" barrel. 

     He loaded a few last night with 4.2 grains titegroup.

    The plans are that as soon as the drizzle is stopped, I'll set up the chronograph and check to make sure on velocity though (Although for sure, close enough a tumbler don't take it out  ;D).

      Pulled a loaded bullet and checked, absolutely no differance that I or him could tell, compare that to the lead bullets which were obviously "squeezed" a bit VS the unloaded leads.
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    FMJ

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 01:13:16 pm »
    FYI, there was something I read by Mas Ayoob once where he suggested only to use factory ammo for defensive purposes for legal reasons...


    Carry on.
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    Jim147

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 09:26:48 pm »
    Quote from: GeorgeHill on April 17, 2011, 11:44:38 pm
    I've only seen that when they are loaded too slow.  Rifling doesn't spin them enough to stabilize.

    That was my first thought.

    I'd love to put those rounds down range with a few of my nines.

    Does the short barrel maybe have a long throat?

    jim
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    Grant

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 08:04:57 am »
    Had a reply last night but lost the reply.  :banghead

    Anywho:

    FMJ: Yes, Ayoob does recomend it, and I also subscribe to that theory, both for reliability and legal purposes.   BUT...this is a guy who don't mind tapping the back of a slide to get a round fully seated, working the slide for underpowered ammo, and puts up with weak magazine springs rather than change them.  Because "A li'l bit of extra effort", will save a whopping couple of bucks  ::)

      Oh well, I know he skims here occasionally so he'll see that anyway  :neener   And I did get a box of 115 factories to use until we at least figure out what the keyholing problem is.


       We're gonna chrony and shoot at paper simultaneously today.  Yesterday we shot 3 rounds and got 831, 1080, and 1120.  I THINK...the 831 was a chronograph error (I get 825-835 occasionally when shooting other hi-vel round), but we'll see.   

       
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    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 02:42:19 pm »
    Quote from: Grant on April 19, 2011, 08:04:57 am
    Had a reply last night but lost the reply.  :banghead

    Anywho:

    FMJ: Yes, Ayoob does recomend it, and I also subscribe to that theory, both for reliability and legal purposes.   BUT...this is a guy who don't mind tapping the back of a slide to get a round fully seated, working the slide for underpowered ammo, and puts up with weak magazine springs rather than change them.  Because "A li'l bit of extra effort", will save a whopping couple of bucks  ::)

      Oh well, I know he skims here occasionally so he'll see that anyway  :neener   And I did get a box of 115 factories to use until we at least figure out what the keyholing problem is.


       We're gonna chrony and shoot at paper simultaneously today.  Yesterday we shot 3 rounds and got 831, 1080, and 1120.  I THINK...the 831 was a chronograph error (I get 825-835 occasionally when shooting other hi-vel round), but we'll see.   


    Gotcha Grant.   The bolded part cracks me up a little because I learned that from watching the Magpul pistol video.
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    Grant

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 06:32:17 pm »
    And I forgot to mention: The above mentioned "problems" he has with semi-autos is why he likes revolvers ::)

    ANywho:

    Did some testing today.  Chronographed a few rounds and found:
    From the Kel-tec most rounds did 1055-1075 FPS.   About 1/3 of the rounds keyholed and missed the sensor array to the left (One took out an antenna but I straightened it).

     Chronographed those same loads at 1110-1130 from my Browning Hi-power (With a barrel 1.75" longer).

    Not "Real" hot....here's the thing:
    In the attached image:  Those cases come from the Kel-tec.   They're not cratered, they sorta look...pooled?     And this does NOT happen from a Ruger P85 or Browning Hi-power....

      I didn't check OAL, but they are loaded in shorter than the factory speer 124+P loads I have.
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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 10:49:12 pm »
    Grant-

    Take 5 randomly pulled rounds out of the batch that's giving you trouble.  Mic 'em.  Twice.  Write the results down.  Every dimension a loaded round has.  Ensure that they are within spec.  Then pull them apart, and mic the individual components, weigh the powder charges. Write it all down.  Then look it over vs. a loading manual.  Is all well here?

    Yes, it's a PITA, but I'll bet you find something consistently out of spec somewhere.
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    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 11:29:49 pm »
    A couple other threads recent threads just got me thinking-

    Does this gun get alternated between lead and jacketed slugs a lot?  If so, your barrel may need a thorough cleaning.
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    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    mnw42

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 12:18:20 am »
    Quote
    Does this gun get alternated between lead and jacketed slugs a lot?  If so, your barrel may need a thorough cleaning.
       



    Quote
    Grant-

    Take 5 randomly pulled rounds out of the batch that's giving you trouble.  Mic 'em.  Twice.  Write the results down.  Every dimension a loaded round has.  Ensure that they are within spec.  Then pull them apart, and mic the individual components, weigh the powder charges. Write it all down.  Then look it over vs. a loading manual.  Is all well here?

    Yes, it's a PITA, but I'll bet you find something consistently out of spec somewhere.

    Both are excellent thoughts.


    Here's another.  Is it possible that the the bullet is making contact with the lands when the cartridge is chambered?  If the bullet has no space to get started it will cause the pressure signs and could cause some other weird things to happen.
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    Grant

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #15 on: May 22, 2011, 07:42:17 pm »
      Ah, forgot to get back to this.

    Keyholing remained a mystery attempts to chronograph merely got the guide-wires bent (any tumbling bullet went outside the wires, even at close range, I quit before the main box got it).

      Everything seemed very uniform, depth, length, powder charge,etc. everything seemed consistant.

       Dad got fed up with it, I bought the P11 off him, and he put the cash in and bought a Ruger LC9.  He's plumb happy, the same shells are NOT keyholing and are pretty danged nice in fact.

     I shoot mostly factory ammo, and I am enjoying the P11.   I DID notice one thing: I had never thought to try it before, but as I was emptying out some partial boxes, I noticed:  It keyholes with 147 grain 9mm ammunition.   

      So everything turned out hunky-dory, although the keyholing remains a mystery.
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    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: 9mm bullets keyholing:
    « Reply #16 on: May 22, 2011, 07:53:53 pm »
    Send it back to KT for some examination and repair.
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