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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by coelacanth on Today at 04:42:44 pm »
So, to summarize then, the 2016 election was not overturned even though everyone knew it was rigged and now the 2020 election has not been overturned even though everyone knew it was rigged.   Got it?   

Also, when people take to the streets to protest something people are going to get hurt or killed because that's how people act toward each other when they get angry.  Or high.  Or both.  Police are always in the line of fire - from both sides - and if you are unfortunate enough to live or work where all this protesting is happening you're pretty much screwed because that's how people act at "mostly peaceful" protests.  Understand? 

Now that we've cleared all this up what else needs discussing?    :coffee

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You have a great view of most of these knuckleheads.
Some were gross and defecated and smeared the halls.

But some were organized enough to sweep offices for mail and electronics to sell.
And other police officers received severe injuries, resulting in a fatality.

That's fine, I wondered at the time if the people were a smoke screen of sorts to something more involved but I honestly haven't seen any real evidence and I've since tightened my tin foil hat;)

In fun news a Chinook just flew over the shop for no reason so there's that;)

Luke
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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by Doug Wojtowicz on Today at 03:51:43 pm »
Now I'd like to say this:


Does that look super organized or aggressive? Doesn't to me either, I'm not saying there weren't parts that may have been but the vast majority of what I've seen is deer in the headlights with zero plan of action.

How about this one:


Even the cop "Any chance I could get you guys to leave the Senate wing?" that doesn't sound like he feels they are in a life and death coop. Just my opinion, but it seems like a goof to a large degree. And I'm not discounting or defending their actions, I think what they did overall was stupid, probably criminal but not approaching treason or anything beyond IMHO. But my opinion is worth what you paid for it.


You have a great view of most of these knuckleheads.
Some were gross and defecated and smeared the halls.

But some were organized enough to sweep offices for mail and electronics to sell.
And other police officers received severe injuries, resulting in a fatality.
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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by Doug Wojtowicz on Today at 03:46:20 pm »
Also, just going over the claims of city devastation and the numerous lives lost, here's a resource from a traditionally conservative publication - the Austin American Statesman, which debunks the claims as of August of last year.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/08/10/fact-checking-claim-about-deaths-damage-from-black-lives-matter-protests/113878088/
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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by Doug Wojtowicz on Today at 03:43:35 pm »
At the time of the Las Vegas violence where protester Gomez was slain by police, an officer was tragically severely injured - unrelated to the protesting, just one of the horrible dangers police officers DO ENCOUNTER.

Las Vegas police officer Shay Mikalonis was shot in the head during the same protest, and reportedly remains paralyzed from the injury. Officials have said the 20-year-old Las Vegas resident charged in the shooting had not been participating in the protest before the attack, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.
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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by Doug Wojtowicz on Today at 03:40:09 pm »
Doing my diligence researching Grognard's claim of 12 police officers murdered during the BLM riots, because unlike him, I won't unfairly dismiss a claim without seeking out the receipts.

1 - Lee Keltner, a navy veteran who made custom western hats, was shot after a “patriot rally” in Denver on 10 October. Video and photographs of the incident appear to show Keltner slapping a security guard for a local news crew, who responds by pulling out a gun and shooting him.

2 - Aaron “Jay” Danielson, a far-right Trump supporter, was shot after a rally in Portland in August. Danielson’s suspected killer, Michael Reinoehl, was a leftwing protester who called himself an “anti-fascist”, and who was later shot to death by law enforcement officials, an outcome Donald Trump referred to as “retribution”.

3 - Garrett Foster was reportedly carrying an AK-47 rifle when he was shot to death in July by an armed man who had been driving a car through a crowd of Black Lives Matter protesters in Austin. Whether Foster threatened the driver with his gun is still disputed. The man who shot and killed Foster, the US army sergeant Daniel Perry, had previously tweeted “Now is the time to take up arms and protect yourselves against violence” and responded to a Trump tweet in June about “protesters, anarchists, agitators, looters” by saying, “Send them to Texas we will show them why we say don’t mess with Texas.” Citing those tweets, analysts at a thinktank that monitors domestic terrorism classified the shooting as an act of “violent far-right” domestic terrorism. But Perry has not yet faced any criminal charges, and a local prosecutor in Texas said the incident was still under investigation.

Both Reinoehl and Perry have claimed they were acting in self-defense when they opened fire and that they felt their own lives were in danger.

4 & 5 - In Kenosha in August, a 17-year-old carrying a rifle he was not old enough to legally possess shot and killed two people, Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber, and seriously injured a third at a volatile late-night protest. His lawyer has argued the teenager, who came to Kenosha from Illinois, was also acting in self-defense.

6 - In Louisville, the photographer Tyler Gerth was shot and killed at a downtown park where protesters gathered. The alleged shooter, Steven Nelson Lopez, was homeless and had a history of severe mental illness, and had reportedly been asked to leave the park earlier because of his behavior. Many of the protesters in the park were armed and on edge, and returned fire when Lopez started shooting, local news outlets reported.

7 - In Las Vegas, Jorge Gomez was wearing body armor and carrying several guns when he was shot to death by Las Vegas police at a protest in June. Before he was shot, several protesters told Gomez they disapproved of him being armed, and even a journalist questioned him about why he was holding his gun in his hand with his finger on the trigger, the Las Vegas Sun reported. Las Vegas police officer Shay Mikalonis was shot in the head during the same protest, and reportedly remains paralyzed from the injury. Officials have said the 20-year-old Las Vegas resident charged in the shooting had not been participating in the protest before the attack, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.

Other law enforcement officers have been injured in non-fatal shootings this year, including two Los Angeles sheriff’s deputies shot in Compton while sitting in their patrol car in mid-September, and two Louisville police officers shot in late September during a protest over the lack of serious charges against police officers in Breonna Taylor’s killing.

6 - James Scurlock, a Black Lives Matter protester with an infant daughter, was shot to death in Omaha in May after a confrontation with a white bar owner outside the man’s bar.

7 & 8 - Other demonstrators died when cars drove through or rammed into crowds of Black Lives Matter protesters. Summer Taylor, a Black Lives Matter protester who worked in a veterinary clinic, was killed in such an incident in Seattle. So was Robert Forbes, a black protester from Bakersfield whose sister recalled him demonstrating decades earlier over the brutal police beating of Rodney King. In St Louis, Barry Perkins, a father of two, was killed after being dragged and run over by a FedEx truck during a protest in May.

9 - 14 (Two California officers, one retired policemen) In addition to the people killed while demonstrating, at least 14 more Americans have been killed in other incidents linked to political unrest this summer, including seven people shot during alleged looting of businesses, among them David Dorn, a retired police officer shot during the robbery of a pawn shop in St Louis; two California law enforcement officers murdered by an alleged anti-government “Boogaloo” extremist, one person found dead in a pawn shop in Minneapolis that had been set on fire; an eight-year-old shot to death in Atlanta; and a Louisville restaurant owner who was shot dead by the national guard.

Some of those killings remain unsolved.

15 - One of two fatal shootings of young black men in Seattle’s self-declared “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” was not politically motivated, according to ACLED’s review of details in the case, but the June shooting of Antonio Mays Jr, a 16-year-old, was found to be connected to the broader unrest. A Seattle Times review of footage linked to the chaotic scene of the shooting suggested that some people in the protest zone might have believed they were under attack when they fired their guns at the stolen Jeep Mays and another young teenager were driving into the zone.

16 - Jessica Doty-Whitaker, a white woman, was shot to death early one July morning in Indianapolis. Her fiance told media outlets that her shooting had been preceded by a tense argument with some passerby about the use of a racial slur and the statements, “Black Lives Matter” v “All Lives Matter”. While they walked away from that confrontation, the fiance said, someone opened fire later and the 24-year-old mother was killed. Indianapolis police have not verified those claims or released any details about the circumstances of the shooting, and no one has been charged, but ACLED categorized the shooting as potentially politically motivated.

17 - Victor Cazares Jr was described by friends and family as a supporter of Black Lives Matter. On 1 June, a day of widespread protests across the country, he was shot to death outside a neighborhood grocery store in Cicero, Illinois, that he was reportedly trying to protect.

While a Chicago resident was quickly charged in the shooting death of another man, Jose Gutierrez, that same day in Cicero, the Cicero police department did not respond to requests for comment about whether anyone had yet been charged in Cazares’s death.

“He was just standing there making sure that everybody is OK,” Cazares’ sister told the Cicero Independiente. “He wasn’t there to cause any violence. He didn’t even have a weapon.”

Of the 17 listed as of October, Three were law enforcement. One was retired. And one, Victor Cezares, died attempting to stop opportunist looters at a grocery store.

Grognard, if you could provide me a link to the other nine murdered police officers, I would like to see that.

As for the evidence and eyewitness reports of voter fraud, all of that evidence would have been quite relevant in the 61 court cases dismissed for LACK OF EVIDENCE to counter the results of the votes confirmed by Vice President Mike Pence, the Electoral Colleges, and even a stay order dismissed by a heavily conservative Supreme Court case.

I see no logical reason for agents of the court to withhold evidence in support of their case in favor of their client, the 45th President.
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Activism and Gun Politics / Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Last post by coelacanth on Today at 03:39:26 pm »
^ Nailed it ^   :coffee
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In regards to people comparing the 7% of Black Lives Matter protests (where Boogaloo Boys engaged in arson and threw bricks at cops, inciting tear gas attacks upon the non-violent members of the crowd turning peaceful assembly into a riot) to the coordinated and determined breech of the Capitol building (where cops were killed and injured), I present this article.

It's not from NewsMax nor OANN, so I don't know if a couple people here will consider it valid, but it's worth a try in regards to the point of no return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/15/false-comparison-between-last-summers-protests-what-happened-capitol/

I didn't read the whole thing I scanned it and didn't see anything I haven't seen before so if there are important parts I missed feel free to mention it and I'll go back. But my thoughts are I don't think this was any better organized than anything that happened over the summer maybe less so. There is a thought that these are all super organized, in this case I think you had a large group of people pissed about what could be true or not that's not for me to decide. I've long said "be afraid of idiots in large groups" the reason is purely it doesn't matter their ideology it's purely that human wave effect. It's damn hard to stop a thousand people running at you armed or unarmed.

Now I'd like to say this:


Does that look super organized or aggressive? Doesn't to me either, I'm not saying there weren't parts that may have been but the vast majority of what I've seen is deer in the headlights with zero plan of action.

How about this one:


Even the cop "Any chance I could get you guys to leave the Senate wing?" that doesn't sound like he feels they are in a life and death coop. Just my opinion, but it seems like a goof to a large degree. And I'm not discounting or defending their actions, I think what they did overall was stupid, probably criminal but not approaching treason or anything beyond IMHO. But my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

If they had lined up as an entry team, been stacking bodies and blowing doors... Yeah I'd say that's a coop. Walking in and dicking around on social media then leaving, I just don't agree and yeah they walked out with stuff and I'll admit my dark sense of humor I laughed my ass off about some of that. But they didn't burn the place down and in general even the folks inside seemed to be fairly respectful. Again there are certainly exceptions and even those who were respectful I'm not defending since I don't think they should have been there.

But I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion IMHO.

Luke

Also you wouldn't catch me there, nor at any political rally so I may be a poor case to examine this stuff. I'll continue to hang out in the woods and watch the world pick sides and tear themselves up.
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