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Author Topic: Space Force Antipathy  (Read 2213 times)

RetroGrouch

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Space Force Antipathy
« on: August 16, 2018, 08:48:18 pm »
Can someone explain to me all the mocking, ridiculing memes on a US Space Force?  I grew up on SF centering around space exploration and inevitable space battles.  There is nothing I'd like better than to be in the first generation to be in such a thing.  The next war may be fought with computer viruses and the such, but if you can destroy a country's satellites (especially a high tech country like ours) or drop large rocks from outside the gravity well on a country, you don't need nukes.

I know the left used the term "Stars Wars" to belittle President Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, but why is our side belittling something our country may need with a high probability in the near future?
Arizona

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #1 on: August 16, 2018, 11:17:58 pm »
    I agree.  What people don't realize, is the military already has a mild 'space' division.  The USAF, which considers its battlefields to be 'Air, Space, and Cyberspace.'  Right now, if it is a space threat, it is the Air Force's job.  All this does is break Space (and presumably Cyberspace) away from the AF, and by doing so taking them both more seriously.  This is a good thing.  For too long we have neglected these areas of our defense.
    West VirginiaLet these troubles come during my time, so that my children may live in peace.

    booksmart

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #2 on: August 16, 2018, 11:21:18 pm »
    First, there are treaties against militarizing space, and I'm 90% sure we're a signatory (I'll freely admit there are probably other nations ignoring the treaty, though, to be honest).  If there are, they're mostly smart dart droppers or smart pebble launchers.  Not much you can do about those *from space* once they're launched, unless you happen to be in just the right place at the right time, and orbital mechanics make that verrrry difficult.  Yeah, you can take out the satellite after the fact, but you can do that from the ground, too.

    Second, look at the nations who have the ability to reach space.  A solid chunk of them are (at least nominally) our allies.  China and Russia are the two biggest standouts, and even Russia we have travel arrangements with.  Third on our naughty list is North Korea, and, well... meh.

    Third, we already have NASA for space exploration. They're really good at it.  Been doing it for a while.

    Fourth, not a whole lot of space aliens running around.  So far, the only thing out there for us to fear is us.

    Fifth, we've got other things we should be spending money on. Infrastructure, for one.  Upgrading, improving, and securing our power grid, for two (see below).

    Sixth, even the Pentagon doesn't want it, and they haven't seen a reason to blow dollars at something they didn't love.

    Seventh, you're accurate in that the next World War will likely be fought with computer viruses (and, given what we know about Russian forays against our power grid, I honestly think it'd be safe to say that Cold War II is in full swing).

    RetroGrouch

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2018, 01:10:15 am »
    The treaties I know of are against using nuclear weapons in space, which aren't that effective out there anyways.


    China and Russia ARE the threats we will have to deal with aside from state sponsored terrorists.


    The New World was all about exploration, until it wasn't, then it was about war.  Humans have been fighting since we figured out how to make tools, and probably before that.


    The whole point of a Space Force is other humans, see my point just above.


    We've all heard the "why spend money on space when X needs it more!" and then space spending ends up doing more for the country than X.


    The Air Force (and to a lesser degree the Navy) doesn't want to lose their space assets to a new military organization.


    Oh, BTW you CAN'T secure a power grid.  I did risk assessment in the electric utility industry, and it is too spread out and physically can't be enclosed.  The best you can do is make it massively redundant and distributed, which brings on other problems.  "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"


    But thanks for the left's objections, now can we get the reasoning behind the right's antipathy?
    Arizona

    booksmart

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2018, 01:14:34 am »
    I'm not talking about securing it against physical attacks, I'm talking about securing it against cyber attacks (sorry, should have specified).

    Yeah, we do see a lot of return on investment from space. Again, NASA does that just fine.

    As for why the right is apathetic?  I dunno... y'all haven't been real hot on paying attention to science lately, so why spend a lot of money on it?
    « Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 01:25:00 am by booksmart »

    Chief45

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 11:24:19 am »
    got into a discussion with a New York Liberal friend of mine.   Part of his responses were rote obviously, what his professors had told him.  (He is one of those that the attitude is, I/We/they have the advanced, higher, education, obviously that means more intelligent.   

    One quote was "all the top scientists" say it's a waste of time and money, spend the money on XYZ.   My reply that historically "all the top scientists" have a very good and extensive track record of being Wrong,  did not go over well.

    it's also standard Alinsky.  #5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."  #13.  "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

    and no,  I'm not concerned at this point about alien attack.  I am most concerned about #2.  human vs. human,  and #1.  Objects already in space.  dinosaur killers, and man made in retrograde coming back into the gravity well. 

    The Outer Space Treaty was opened for signature in the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union on 27 January 1967, and entered into force on 10 October 1967. As of July 2017, 107 countries are parties to the treaty, while another 23 have signed the treaty but have not completed ratification

    Hey,  we have a piece of paper.  we're all safe from attack from orbit.

    https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/ca/
    There are currently 17,740 entries over the last 118 years. 

    and we have absolutely nothing that can be done about an object that is actually going to strike Earth.

    but,  that will never happen,   right ?    right ?

    check my math, but I get an average of 150 objects a year.  with a definition of, objects within 4.5M miles and with a diameter of 500 feet or more.   
     


    I'm not talking about securing it against physical attacks, I'm talking about securing it against cyber attacks (sorry, should have specified).

    Yeah, we do see a lot of return on investment from space. Again, NASA does that just fine.

    As for why the right is apathetic?  I dunno... y'all haven't been real hot on paying attention to science lately, so why spend a lot of money on it?
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    booksmart

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 12:54:37 pm »


    Just wanted to make sure y'all knew I was being tongue-in-cheek about the alien invader thing.

    But seriously, NASA already does or could do everything you've already listed, given the funding.

    MTK20

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 02:36:21 pm »
    I'm not really concerned about the space force until they'll let me sign up to be an ODST  :cool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 04:46:03 pm »
    As for why the right is apathetic?  I dunno... y'all haven't been real hot on paying attention to science lately, so why spend a lot of money on it?
    So I take it you are a liberal?  My take on it is that 'science' can be manipulated and weaponized to say anything you want it to.  Not the scientific method, but institutional 'science.'  So with that in mind, and considering that the scientific field is overwhelmingly driven by and in the leftist urban areas...  And with no one liking to be told that they are wrong by the other side's research...  No, I don't give 'science' much beyond a brief reading.

    As to 'why now,' I take cyber threats very seriously.  Should it get its own branch of the .mil?  Probably not, but at least split it and planetary security away from the USAF.  Then call it whatever you like.  In this case, the 'Space Force.'
    West VirginiaLet these troubles come during my time, so that my children may live in peace.

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 04:54:06 pm »
    There is a word for dogmatically clinging to beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence...Religion. :neener
    Utah

    MTK20

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #10 on: August 17, 2018, 05:21:30 pm »
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    Yes, Bookmark is our beloved liberal here  :cool .

    There is a word for dogmatically clinging to beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence...Religion. :neener

    Calm your t___, Sam Harris  :rotfl  ;) .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2018, 05:31:03 pm »
    There is a word for dogmatically clinging to beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence...Religion. :neener
    Guilty.  Should that be a problem?  :scrutiny

    And it is not just the right that selectively ignores studies or findings that they find inconvenient.  Leftists are just as bad.
    West VirginiaLet these troubles come during my time, so that my children may live in peace.

    lesptr

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2018, 09:35:21 pm »
    Guilty.  Should that be a problem?  :scrutiny

    And it is not just the right that selectively ignores studies or findings that they find inconvenient.  Leftists are just as bad.
    Or worse.


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    cpaspr

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2018, 10:58:56 pm »
    So I take it you are a liberal?  <snip>

    Look at his profile.  Says right there that he's the "Token Left Leaning Idealist", but that he's also a Liberterian.  So, no, not necessarily a Liberal, just not a Conservative.
    Oregon

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2018, 09:33:49 pm »
    Look at his profile.  Says right there that he's the "Token Left Leaning Idealist", but that he's also a Liberterian.  So, no, not necessarily a Liberal, just not a Conservative.
    It has been my observation that Libertarians are Idealists by necessity.  But so are communists, socialists, capitalists and monarchists, for the same reason... :coffee
    West VirginiaLet these troubles come during my time, so that my children may live in peace.

    MTK20

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #15 on: August 18, 2018, 10:19:41 pm »
    It has been my observation that Libertarians are Idealists by necessity.  But so are communists, socialists, capitalists and monarchists, for the same reason... :coffee

     :rotfl

    It's not that revolutionary of an idea, really. If you can't trust people to have the independent agency to govern their own lives, then how in the hell can you trust people with the power of office to govern the lives of others?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    AltRight Vanguard

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #16 on: August 18, 2018, 11:41:13 pm »
    :rotfl

    It's not that revolutionary of an idea, really. If you can't trust people to have the independent agency to govern their own lives, then how in the hell can you trust people with the power of office to govern the lives of others?
    That being said, All of the forms of government I listed would work very well... IF everyone involved was willing to give it their all, and act altruistically.  If.  Hell, socialism and communism would work just fine if everyone would contribute to their max potential, while drawing only what they needed from the dole.  :rotfl  Yet we haven't seen it work that way yet, now have we?

    Similarly, libertarianism (and don't get me wrong, libertarians have the right idea) is great on paper, but to be implemented successfully it requires a high-trust population that is willing to play by the rules, and keep the greater good in mind.  Just like our Republic requires a Constitution to keep the whims and wishes of a corrupt population at bay, so does libertarianism need at least a framework of government to prevent chaos.
    West VirginiaLet these troubles come during my time, so that my children may live in peace.

    booksmart

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    Re: Space Force Antipathy
    « Reply #17 on: August 19, 2018, 01:15:29 am »
    In the immortal words of Ammon Hennacy, "Aw, Judge, what good are your laws, anyway? Good people don't need 'em, and bad people don't obey 'em."

    Interesting individual: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_Hennacy

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