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Author Topic: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?  (Read 7882 times)

StevenTing

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Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
« on: November 11, 2008, 02:40:44 pm »
http://www.standard.net/live/news/148232/

Quote
The police department now has three more guns for officers to use -- thanks to the criminals they confiscated them from.

The department was in a rare and interesting situation when officers realized three firearms they'd seized, two riot shotguns and a Glock .40-caliber pistol, were within their legal right to use.

Police sought approval from the city council to use the weapons during a recent meeting. The council voted unanimously to put the three firearms, two of which were confiscated and one that was found, into police use.

The two shotguns had been stored at the department for several years and were "brand-spanking new," said Roy Police Captain Jack Bell. The department will use them to fire non-lethal rounds, he said. The rescued Glock is identical to the service pistols used by all Roy police officers.

Full article is in the link above. I don't think they should be doing this.  I don't think it is ethical.  Basically, they are now using someone elses property without permission/compensatin.
Utah

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    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 02:50:02 pm »
    Hey... better than melting them.

    If the actually did try to find the true owner, and honestly could not, I don't see a problem.  Especially after several years of sitting and collecting dust.  This is better than spending more of my tax dollars, or, as I said, melting them down, eh?


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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 02:59:01 pm »
    I remember that back in the older times, like in the 60's and 70's, narcotics officers not wanting to be seen carrying a "cop gun" were allowed to use weapons from the evidence locker so they would be armed, but wouldn't seem to be police.

    If the cases for those weapons in evidence were completed, and they WERE used by criminals, those aren't the incarcerated's property, except in the instance that they either stole them, or bought them through illicit channels, like from the same schmuck who sold them drugs.
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 03:06:28 pm »
    I agree it can seem shady as there is a massive temptation to abuse this... "power". 
    But if the rule of law was followed and these weapons are no longer the property of  a citizen... then I think they should be used.  Same for vehicles.  Using this means the departments can spend less in acquiring new hardware.
    However, there should be oversight, from a non biased source to make sure there is no abuse.  And each item should be taken in consideration case by case.  Again, to make sure there is no abuse.
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    StevenTing

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 03:13:15 pm »
    I agree it can seem shady as there is a massive temptation to abuse this... "power". 
    But if the rule of law was followed and these weapons are no longer the property of  a citizen... then I think they should be used.  Same for vehicles.  Using this means the departments can spend less in acquiring new hardware.
    However, there should be oversight, from a non biased source to make sure there is no abuse.  And each item should be taken in consideration case by case.  Again, to make sure there is no abuse.

    The one thing I don't see here is a transfer through an FFL.  PD confiscates gun.  Puts it in evidence locker for a period of time.  City Council approves PD to use guns.

    I think for this to be kosher, it should go through an FFL and a 4473 should be filled out.
    Utah

    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 03:15:26 pm »
    Why, if I might ask?


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    xsquidgator

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 03:15:52 pm »
    The one thing I don't see here is a transfer through an FFL.  PD confiscates gun.  Puts it in evidence locker for a period of time.  City Council approves PD to use guns.

    I think for this to be kosher, it should go through an FFL and a 4473 should be filled out.

    Yeah.  I don't like the idea at all of them being able to just... do that.  I don't like even the appearance of a conflict of interest, could lead to problems.  Let the police operate under the firearms purchase rules and regs that we peons do and maybe the Chiefs of Police will quit pandering to the Brady Campaign's latest gun control initiatives.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 03:16:03 pm »
    Hmmm... I think the PD's have their own ATF Log books.  I don't know for sure.  
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    StevenTing

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 03:19:48 pm »
    Why, if I might ask?


    -T.

    Here's my reasoning.  If I were to get my gun confiscated and for some reason I would not get it back, I don't want the possibility of that gun being used in another crime.  I paid for the gun.  I filled out the 4473 and it has the serial of the gun and my signature on the paperwork.

    Now, the PD starts using the gun.  If no record is kept of the transfer, I could possibly end up in more trouble.  If someone steals the gun from the PD or the PD does something bad with it, the gun is "tied" to me, even though I no longer have possession of it.

    Filling out a 4473 can show that someone else now owns the gun.
    Utah

    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 03:24:11 pm »
    Ah.  Cool beans.

    I thought maybe it was out of spite, to which I'd call that silly.  But your point does have validity.  However, I think that a bit more would go into putting the gun back in circulation that just pulling it from the evidence locker and saying "Here you go!"  PD would log it I'm sure, just as they log new guns.  Then any trace on that SN would turn it up as a department owned gun.


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 03:42:15 pm »
    If the serial numbers have been ran and no owners have been found?  Go ahead.  Use 'em or sell 'em.  Just don't destroy 'em.  Either way it gives my tax dollars a break, or at least a little more stretch.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    Outbreak

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 05:34:09 pm »
    I think its a dangerous precedent. I think they should have sold the guns and then they could use the money to buy their own, possibly identical guns, if they want. Letting a gummint agency play with confiscated evidence could lead to more confiscations in the future. "Hey, we're running low on range ammo, and the budget is too tight to get any more this quarter. I know Jim, over on Main Street, has a couple thousand rounds of .40 in his house. Go arrest him for something and take all his ammo into evidence. The city council has already approved department use of stuff in the evidence locker."
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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 05:59:19 pm »
    Steve, from an FFL's standpoint, that wouldn't do any good for it to go back and do a 4473 to protect the original owner, because if the gun could be traced back to an original owner, the PD wouldn't be able to keep it anyway.

    StevenTing

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 06:19:41 pm »
    Steve, from an FFL's standpoint, that wouldn't do any good for it to go back and do a 4473 to protect the original owner, because if the gun could be traced back to an original owner, the PD wouldn't be able to keep it anyway.

    What about the case of evidence?  The case is over.  The weapon is forfeit.  Why do they get to keep the weapon then?  In this case, I think it should be "reregistered".
    Utah

    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 06:48:28 pm »
    Like put it up for auction and let PD bid like the rest of us?

    In a way, the guns are being returned to us.  That's a few hundy less that we'll pay to arm the cops.  Goes for cars too.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say, maybe, even cash for huge drug busts.  I haven't thought that one through yet though.

    I say use 'em (the guns), after due diligence of course, with some oversight to keep everyone honest.


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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 06:58:56 pm »
    What about the case of evidence?  The case is over.  The weapon is forfeit.  Why do they get to keep the weapon then?  In this case, I think it should be "reregistered".

    Which is why I think the guns they are using don't have any links to citizen owners.  They're basically stolen or smuggled in.
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 01:13:38 am »
    Quote from: Thernlund
    I'll go out on a limb here and say, maybe, even cash for huge drug busts.  I haven't thought that one through yet though.

    I'd recommend against that. Occasional, windfall cash influxes to a municipal agency with police powers would cause problems over the long term. Let sworn officers be rewarded more for taking criminals off the street than for collecting money.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 01:20:21 am »
    Mm.  Yeah.  Probably right.  I didn't think it through first.  Just a passing thought.


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    springmom

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #18 on: November 12, 2008, 10:33:07 am »
    Stupid question... do governmental entities ever have to fill one out? They are clearly designed for citizens. I would think that .gov entities are cleared by definition.

    Jan

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    Thernlund

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    Re: Is this legal for the PD/City Council to do?
    « Reply #19 on: November 12, 2008, 12:29:38 pm »
    As George said above, gov't agencies probably have their own channels.  They don't do the same paperwork as us, but there is paperwork involved.


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

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