Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: F-22's fatal flaw  (Read 6016 times)

GeorgeHill

  • Co-Founder
  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 22121
  • The Ogre
    • MadOgre.com

  • Offline
F-22's fatal flaw
« on: October 22, 2008, 06:21:17 pm »
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2008101805143.asp
I was worried for a second until I read the article.
Good grief, the F-22 is a winged beast...
Quote
That scenario postulated that three regiments of Chinese Su-27s (72 aircraft) went up against six F-22s (hastily flown to Taiwan to stem a hypothetical Chinese onslaught.) Even though the Su-27s were carrying about 900 air-to-air missiles (and the F-22s only 48), the American fighters manage to survive the air battle, and take down over twenty Su-27s. But some of the Su-27s get past them and go after the aerial tankers.
Six F-22's go against 72 SU-27, and the results are No F-22 loses and over 20 SU-27's went down.  That is fantastic.
The fatal flaw is that the F-22 burns fuel... like every other fighter.  Oh dear.    72... Seventy Two... and they couldn't get one of our F-22's.
WOW.
South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

Vires et Honestas
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
http://www.madogre.com/

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    JesseL

    • Gun Mangler
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 12451

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 06:32:51 pm »
    The whole article also makes a big deal of fuel consumption with afterburners but neglects to mention that the F-22 is capable of exceeding Mach 1.7 without resorting to afterburners, ie supercruise. The SU-27 not so much.

    « Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 06:41:16 pm by JesseL »
    Arizona

    FMJ

    • 7.62
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14344
    • "A good black coffee is like a good liquid cigar"

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 09:24:58 pm »
    Nice.
    CaliforniaThere are many like it, but this one is mine.

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 09:37:19 pm »
    This still cracks me up... 72 of them... and they couldn't hit one Raptor.   Not one.
    That's like something out of some Anime... an arial Ninja.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    D4N

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 271

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 07:16:36 am »
    Well, before you open a botle of champain to celebrate this victory, don't forget that, THIS WAS A COMPUTER SIMULATION.
    Remember the F-4, that has been presented as a super fighter aircraft.
    When it came to confrontation with northvietnamies Mig-21 only the skill of the F-4 pilots has awerted the debacle.

    I'll belive in F-22 supersuperiority when the things mentioned above happen in REAL dogfight.
    Till then, it's just a 4th gen. fighter. 
    « Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:19:36 am by D4N »
    "My forefathers fought and died for this here
    I'm stronger than your war of fear
    Are we clear?
    If you step in my hood
    It's understood
    It's open season"
    STUCK MOJO

    stephendutton

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2533
    • Is a man-eating anteater still an anteater?
      • The Hazug Files

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 02:41:07 pm »
    Well, before you open a botle of champain to celebrate this victory, don't forget that, THIS WAS A COMPUTER SIMULATION.
    Remember the F-4, that has been presented as a super fighter aircraft.
    When it came to confrontation with northvietnamies Mig-21 only the skill of the F-4 pilots has awerted the debacle.

    I'll belive in F-22 supersuperiority when the things mentioned above happen in REAL dogfight.
    Till then, it's just a 4th gen. fighter. 

    Weren't some of the F4's troubles down to problems with the missiles that prevented it from the stand-off missile carrier it was supposed to be, and was instead forced to be a dogfighter without a gun? Until one was bolted to the outside.
    My website is back! It features over 100 pieces of fan fiction set in the Star Trek, Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000 universes.
    http://thehazugfiles.uk/Index.htm

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 05:51:36 pm »
    That's pretty much nail on the head.  The F-4, and trust me, I do love it, was not designed to be a dog fighter.  It was an interceptor.  Designed to fly high and fast and carry a lot of missiles.  Then it was put into a low altitude mixer with jets designed to be dog fighters... it had some troubles... yet with inginuity, superior power, superior training, superior pilots... it was the victor.
    I remember reading about Duke Cunningham's huge dogfight... putting up his F-4 against a Mig.


    The F-22 however, being "just" a 4th Gen fighter, is heads and tails above all others... SU-27's, Rafaels... Eurofighters...  F-22 stomps all of them.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 05:54:41 pm »
    Let me just say this... Duke Cunningham is still a Hero in my book.  He took some freebies... but he's still a Hero.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    grampster

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 130

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 06:58:26 pm »
    I just can't fathom how a man of his character could have let himself slip the way he did.  I don't guess I ever will understand it.
    "Politicians lie for the same reason that monkeys use their tails, which is to say because they can."

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 08:04:46 pm »
    He changed the Military's view of Air Combat.  He changed aircombat forever.  If he had lost that battle... if he was not a true warrior... America would not Own The Air like we do today.  Our air superiority is unquestioned, because of him.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Nightcrawler

    • WTA Secretary of Defense
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6280
    • That's what SHE said!

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #10 on: October 25, 2008, 10:29:47 am »
    So...a single flight of F-22s can't take on the entire PLAAF without refueling?  Well holy crap.  Let's just scrap the program and roll the Air Force back into the Army, then.  Geez.

    The F-22 is really freaking expensive.  It's also really freaking capable.  You can do more with less airframes with the F-22.  Which is good, becuase a few F-22s are replacing a whole lot of F-15s (and all of the F-117s).

    Personally, I think they should expand and upgrade the Raptor's capabilities, and make a two-seat version.  A "Strike Raptor", if you will.  Slightly larger frame (or maybe low-observable external fuel tanks) to increase range, better ELINT and communications packages, etc.  Sacrifice some manuverability for increased strike capacity.  It's not like a lot of dogfighting will be necessary with missiles like the AIM-120.  They're a hell of a lot more accurate than anything we had in Vietnam.  In any case the single-seat Raptor will be able to handle air superiority just fine.

    By the by, the F-22 is technically a 5th generation jet fighter.  The first generation were the straight winged subsonics, like the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.  The second generation were swept-wing transsonics, like the North American F-86 Saber.  The third generation were swept-wing supersonics, like the entire Century Series, from the North American F-100 Super Saber to the Republic F-105 Thunderchief (and the Phantom also).  The 4th generation are basically the Post-Vietnam Era fighters, like the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18.  The 5th generation builds on that evolution with increased capabilities, like stealth and supercruise.

    I'd classify the F-35 joint strike fighter as a stort of 4.5th generation; it has stealth but lacks supercruise and other features, to keep costs down.
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

    Retired Bomb Guy
    Semi-Pro Hack Writer

    Feud

    • Teller of bad jokes.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4986

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 02:24:20 am »
    When I was living in Florida I had some friend who was a F-15 pilot out of Tyndall.  One day he was telling me about a war game they had just flown, where six veteran Eagle drivers ambushed one of the Raptor pilots.  I still remember him shaking his head and saying how they didn't even come close.

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 01:02:09 pm »
    And remember, the F-15 is no slouch.  When it was The Hot Thing, the pilots called them Starships because they were so advanced, so superior.  They had almost total control over the sky around them.  (I used to spend some time hanging out with guys from the Green Dragon Squadron when they were at McCord AFB)
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Outbreak

    • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Certified Sig P-Series Armorer
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 11465
    • Outbreak Monkey ^

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 03:23:50 am »
    As an Airlift guy, we saw the F-22 as a big white cow, but then I met a guy who was briefed on the secret squirrel aspects of it, and while he didn't give me any details, he told me it was at least as good as they say it is, and we need more.
    TexasOutbreak

    I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    Feud

    • Teller of bad jokes.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4986

    • Offline
    Re: F-22's fatal flaw
    « Reply #14 on: October 29, 2008, 11:08:33 pm »
    As an Airlift guy, we saw the F-22 as a big white cow

    Says the guy with a C-130 as his pic!  ;D

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.