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Author Topic: Alternative Military History!  (Read 12717 times)

Nightcrawler

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Alternative Military History!
« on: February 20, 2014, 12:42:06 pm »
We got to talking about the what-ifs, might-have-beens, and never-wases in the thread about the F-35 at Hill AFB.  It got me thinking, there were a lot of proposals for the US (and allied) armed forces in the last 25 years that never went anywhere.  With the perfect clarity of hindsight, it seems like some options that were derided in the past would now be preferable to what was actually done.

The Gulf War period was tumultuous for the US military.  With the end of that war and the collaspe of the Soviet Union, the greatest scaling back of the US Armed Forces since the end of World War II was underway.  Forces would be cut, and cut, and cut again, cuts that would not be reversed until after 9/11.

(The same thing is happening again, I expect.  The great irony is that during the Gulf War, the US military was twice as large, the number of DOD civilians was less than half of what it is now, and the overall defense budget was STILL smaller than it is today.  Makes you think perhaps we're operating with too much overhead.)

So, going back to the Gulf War era through today, throw out some what-ifs and wouldn't-that-have-been-cools.  Try to justify it as much as you can.  For example, if you think the USAF should've bought some F-20 Tigersharks, explain why you think so.  (In this case, how would the F-20 have been better than simply buying more F-16s?)

Feel free to throw in as many pictures as you like.  I like pictures, and it's not like we're on dialup anymore.  These don't have to be all aircraft related.  There were just as many starts-and-stops in the realms of land warfare, surface ships, and submarines as there were in military aviation.  Anything from Gulf War 1 to yesterday is fair game.

Since I started the thread, I'll go first.  I don't have any pictures to link, because so far as I know such a thing has never been proposed: a conventional jet bomber to replace the B-52H Stratofortress.

The B-52 was supposedly replaced several times in its long career (which spans the late 1950s to present; the last B-52 rolled off the assembly line in 1962).  The XB-70 was supposed to replace it, but was overtaken by technology.  The B-1 was supposed to replace it, but they served side by side, and now I think there are more B-52s in service than the much younger B-1.  The B-2 was supposed to replace it, but only twenty-one B-1s were built, which isn't enough to be a viable bomber force in of itself.  There's a joke that when the last B-2 is retired, and ferried to the boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB, the crew will be flown home in a B-52.

As of right now, the venerable Stratofortress is expected to fly until possibly 2040.  That's a career of over eighty years, which is probably record-breaking for a warplane.

On one hand, it's amazing, a tribute to the engineers at Boeing who built the greatest bomber of all time.  On the other hand, it's kind of ridiculous that the United States Air Force and the entire US Aerospace industry can't come up with something better than a 1950s design. It just goes to show you the value of doing it right the first time.

Let's say, then, that during the Gulf War the B-52 once again demonstrated its value in a purely conventional war.  With the end of that conflict, and the coming defense cuts, the Air Force began to suspect that the 160 B-2s it wanted weren't going to pan out.  On the other hand, in 1992, the youngest B-52 was thirty years old.  Some enterprising bomber officers saw the writing on the wall and managed to push for something radical in its conventionality: a subsonic, non-stealthy jet bomber to replace the B-52.  Just in case, it was thought, there were problems with B-2 acquistion, or if the program was cancelled.

The advantages were several.  A modern design could be designed with different mission perameters already in mind.  The B-52 was originally built to be a high-altitude bomber, and adapted to the low-altitude attack profile, but wasn't ideal for the task.  It could be modular and upgradeable; the BUFF was never expected to serve half as long as it did.  A new plane could have the arcitechture in place to more easily replace the avionics, mission systems, etc., as newer types came online.  The aircraft would be built concurrently with the C-17, so the line would be open and replacement parts could be built as needed.  Preparing for  what was, at the time, and unusually-long service life of 30+ years could have been one of the mission perameters.

Thus the Boeing B-3A was born.  Each airframe cost a fraction of the B-2, so a full production run of 100 tail numbers was planned.  This is later upped to in the late 90s as B-2 production is prematurely capped.

The B-3 is smaller than the B-52, but more manuverable at low altitude.  Its modern turbofan engines are highly effficient, giving it very long range.  Its internal spaces are optimized a little better, making it less cramped for the crew.  While not a stealthy design, it has the bolt-on stealth features of the concurrently developed F/A-18E Super Hornet.  Thus when it's not carrying external ordnance or fuel tanks, its radar cross-section is significantly smaller than the B-52, making it harder to detect at range.  It carries a crew of four, but can operate with a crew of two.  The weapons officer and electronic warfare officer could theoretically be enlisted positions (we didn't require commissioned officers to be bombardiers in World War II, did we?).

For the sake of coolness, I'd like it to have a radar-guided M61 Vulcan 20mm tail gun and the rear-firing Stinger air-to-air missiles that were experimented with on the B-52, but really such systems would be a weight penalty with little benefit.

The design is smaller than the B-52, and utilizes four engines close to the airframe, in radar-cross-section-optimized angular housings.  It has internal bomb bays with rotary racks and external hardpoints for more bombs or large fuel tanks.  It has integrated radar and infra-red sensors, upgraded with LANTRN and SNIPER pods as they become available.  It's designed to be able to use all bomber weapons, from iron bombs to nuclear air-launched cruise missiles.  It has high, wide wings and a broad V-tail.

Two later variants are produced, and procurement begins in the late 1990s and early 2000s.  The first is an EB-3A, a standoff dedicated electronic warfare variant.  The USAF in reality cancelled the standoff jammer package for the B-52, but the modularity of the B-3 design made development easier.  The EB-3A is used for all forms of electronic attack, possibly including cyber attack later on and integration with some UAVs.

The next variant is a maritime patrol aircraft for the Navy.  The P-3 Orion is an old design that's presently being replaced with the P-8 Poseidon.  The P-8 is a weaponized Boeing 737 airliner fitted with a small bomb bay.

The PB-3 Poseidon in this timeline was designed from the outset to carry ordnance, and readily takes to the carrying of antisubmarine and anti-ship weapons.  It has enough space available in the fuselage to allow for additional crewmembers for the maritime patrol mission.  It has longer range and is faster than the P-3, and since it's already in production, the R&D work has been done.

Versions of the PB-3 are also purchased by the British Royal Navy, the Australian Navy, and a version for the Canadian Forces.

The closest thing to this in reality that are not based on a legacy Cold War era bomber design are the various proposals to turn the Boeing 747 into a bomber.  An airframe designed from the outset to be a bomber would likely work better for this function.

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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 08:38:59 pm »
    I don't know why the Air Force even needs a dedicated heavy bomber anymore and should've been retired with the whole SAC concept (I was in when there was still a MAC/SAC/TAC in 1990).  The whole heavy bomber is nothing more than a waste of money in this day & age.  The AF doesn't do any more "carpet bombing" and with the accuracy & lethality of precision guided munitions a single F-15/F-16 with a LGB or GBU can do the job of 1 B-52 filled with MK-82/84 LD/HD assemblies with less collateral damage and more importantly at a MUCH cheaper cost.  It seems more like tradition to keep those dinosaurs around.  AFAIK the only munition that has to be carried by a B-52 is the ALCM in a magazine and I really don't believe that there are many of those left in the AF inventory.

    Now as far as what I wish...I think most people will think that I'm crazy but anyway, I wish that the Cold War never ended.  I thought Europe was more interesting when The Wall was still up and there was no unification...now Europe just plain sucks and I wouldn't want to go back there even just to visit.  IMO the military had more of a purpose and had more innovations going on.  I also like all of that cloak & dagger stuff so that might explain things as well.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 09:07:34 pm »
    Having thought about it a bit, here's my idea: replacing the M16 and M9. Yes, I'm going there. :hide

    Here's the scenario: the Coalition did not declare a cease-fire on 28 February 1991 and instead continued with the invasion of Iraq. Why? Dunno. Let's say that the Iraqis decided to fight it out with Coalition forces rather than retreat from Kuwait. When it became clear that he would lose Kuat, Saddam Hussein ordered that chemical weapons be deployed against both Coaltion troops and Kuwaiti civilians. It takes a while, but eventually the Iraqi military is totally defeated and Saddam is either captured or killed.

    And then we basically find ourselves in a situation not unlike the one we're in today, only in this version our forces aren't restricted by asinine ROE, so they're able to effectively counter the insurgency.

    Anyway, during the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, it became apparent that the M-16 and various Colt Commando carbines in service weren't really suited for desert warfare. Seems it's susceptible to jamming when exposed to a dusty environment. And it turns out that 5.56 ball ammo doesn't have the most knockdown power. Fortunately, since this is still the early 90s, our military leaders are more forward-thinking and aren't so head-over-heels in love with the platform. So they decide to replace it.

    Unfortunately, in this version of history, the military still isn't immune from budget cuts once the conflict ends, so there isn't enough $$$ for an entirely new rifle platform. And just like today, we still have massive stockpiles of 5.56mm ammo and STANAG magazines, so those aren't going to go away.

    Ultimately, rather than buying an all-new design, the Pentagon instead chooses to replace the direct-impingement upper receiver assemblies and bolt carriers with a short-stroke gas pistol design very similar to the AR-18. The upper also incorporates an M1913 rail and detachable carry handle. The end result looks similar to the M16A4, but sports A2-style handguards.



    This new design, which I'll call the M18, also returns to a full-auto setting rather than a 3 round burst. Why? Because this is my alternate history and I think 3 round burst is stupid.  :neener  A carbine variant with a telescoping stock, which I'll call the M5, is also introduced. This basically looks like a stock AR-15 carbine but with a mid-length gas system.



    The M5 is issued to rear-echilon and Special Forces/Special Operations units only. It does not replace the M18 service-wide.

    After a few years, someone realizes that, hey, we're not using a buffer and buffer tube assembly anymore, so why not switch over to a folding stock? That moment of brilliance yields the M18A1 and M5A1, respectively. These look similar to the ZM LR300 (remember those?)



    Only the stocks don't look like they came off a giant Erector Set and the rifles still utilize standard A2 hand-guards and AR-15 style front sight posts

    The next evolution of the design is the M18A2/M5A2, with the only change being railed handguards. The A3 is the next evolution of the design, which replaces the standard fixed front sight base with a folding one, like this one:

    .

    At about the same time that the M18A1 and M5A1 were introduced, the Pentagon began to look away from the 9mm cartridge. Sure the then-newish Berettas were great guns, but prolonged combat experience was proving that the 9mm NATO ball round just doesn't have the knockdown power necessary to deal with enemy combatants, especially fanatical insurgents. At the time, there were still large stocks of .45 ACP ammunition on hand, but the old M1911 pistols still in inventory were pretty much worn out. So the decision was made to adopt a new pistol.

    Ultimately, Beretta once again won the contract. The "new" design, designated the M12 and known in-house and on the civilian market as the 8145, is essentially a modified & updated 8045 Cougar.



    The pistol features a 4.5" barrel and a modified locking block & recoil spring assembly. The new design is similar to the Px4 Storm in that it's only possible to assemble the components one way. As I understand it, in the original Cougar, it's possible to put the guide rod in backwards. The magazine design is also modified to allow a capacity of 9+1.

    The M12A1 is introduced at about the same time as the M18A3/M5A3. This new design adds a Picatinny to the frame and night sights.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 09:54:33 pm »
    Quote
    I don't know why the Air Force even needs a dedicated heavy bomber anymore

    Bombers are how an air force projects power.  The Strike Eagle, for example, can't do the job of a B-52, because the Strike Eagle can't fly halfway around the world to hit a target.

    Bombers have a big advantage in the age of precision guided munitions.  They can do close air support.  B-1s and B-52s have done it in Afghanistan.

    Fighters are fine for the task, but an F-16 guzzles gas like a fiend simply loitering over friendlies.  A bomber can just hang around up there at leisure.  A modern bomber could provide real-time recon info to troops on the ground, like a UAV. Unlike a UAV, it can carry dozens of 2000-lb bombs.  It can do a mission that would take fighters multiple sorties to accomplish.

    There's a reason the B-52 has been around so long, and it's not because of simple tradition.  Sometimes you just need a big-assed bomb truck.

    The new Long Range Strike concept their working on will involve a bomber of some sort, but that won't be the whole package.  There was talk for a while of what they called Prompt Global Strike: imagine an ICBM fitted with a conventional warhead, capable of hitting any target on earth in half an hour.

    Problem is, there are satellites watching our ICBM sites.  Such a launch would freak a lot of countries out, and could potentially start something.  If you take the time to warn the other countries that you're launching, then it defeats the purpose of PGS.

    I actually think the Air Force has been too fighter-centric for too long.  I'd personally rather have a new bomber and no F-35s than the other way around.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 10:34:27 am »
    Quote
    The AF doesn't do any more "carpet bombing"

    There's a village - or what used to be a village - in the Kamdesh district, a short distance from where COP Keating used to stand, that would dispute that statement.  A B-1 bombed the place flat.  The whole village.

    And NC - I think Prompt Global Strike has morphed into some kind of super-duper hypersonic cruise missile.  Mostly due to concerns that sending up something whose ballistic track looks like an ICBM might freak out people with nukes, even if it carried a conventional (or, at the velocity those things move, concrete) warhead.

    For my alternative history, from an Army point of view, it would be really unsexy, but it would be conceptual, educational, and trianing based - get Big Green to understand that their resounding victory meant that the likelihood that anyone would want to play that kind of game with us was now very, very small, and thus that we needed to think about, train and educate our soldiers for, and build forces for, stuff at the lower end of the conflict spectrum - COIN, conflict against unconventional forces, etc - while still maintaining the capability to do high-intensity conflict.  Maybe avoid a lot of the ass pain of the early stages of Afghanistan and Iraq.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 12:30:40 pm »
    And NC - I think Prompt Global Strike has morphed into some kind of super-duper hypersonic cruise missile.  Mostly due to concerns that sending up something whose ballistic track looks like an ICBM might freak out people with nukes, even if it carried a conventional (or, at the velocity those things move, concrete) warhead.

    I've seen what a a concrete-filled dummy version of a Mk 84 (2000lb bomb) can do to a train car.  It still ways a ton, and that ton of concrete wrapped in steel was dropped by an F-16 going probably 500-plus miles per hour.

    The result?  You can duplicate it yourself.  Place a beer can in the sand, then smash it with a hammer.  The bomb ripped through the train car like it wasn't there, plowed into the ground, and porpoised up so that its nose and about one-third of its body was sticking vertically out of the ground some 25 feet away.

    For something like a reentry vehicle...explosives may not be neccesary.  Once you get moving at two or three kilometers per second, the kinetic energy alone is going to hit with almost explosive force.

    Anyway, I've heard about the tests they're doing with the hypersonic test vehicle.  I think they need to get really ambitious and make it into a modern version of Project PLUTO.





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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 01:03:52 pm »
    Bombers are how an air force projects power.  The Strike Eagle, for example, can't do the job of a B-52, because the Strike Eagle can't fly halfway around the world to hit a target.

    Bombers have a big advantage in the age of precision guided munitions.  They can do close air support.  B-1s and B-52s have done it in Afghanistan.

    Fighters are fine for the task, but an F-16 guzzles gas like a fiend simply loitering over friendlies.  A bomber can just hang around up there at leisure.  A modern bomber could provide real-time recon info to troops on the ground, like a UAV. Unlike a UAV, it can carry dozens of 2000-lb bombs.  It can do a mission that would take fighters multiple sorties to accomplish.

    There's a reason the B-52 has been around so long, and it's not because of simple tradition.  Sometimes you just need a big-assed bomb truck.


    Exactly,

    In practical terms, B-52 can provide precision weapons delivery in 15 minutes or less to an area larger than West Virginia or South Carolina and loiter time is limited by human endurance.  Depending on the load out, it might be able to make anywhere from 12+ bomb runs prior to having to be relieved on station to rearm.

    The next day, it can fly out and mine a harbor, serve as conventional cruise missile launch platform or deliver the canned sunshine.   

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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 05:31:39 pm »
    Here's my second entry: the high/low fighter mix.

    It was what we originally intended, back in the day.  The F-14 and F-15 were the high end, high-performance, large, expensive fighters.  The F-16 and the F/A-18 were cheap and lightweight.

    Now, the latter two airframes have been increased in capability over time, but also in cost and complexity.  The F-16 started out as a lightweight, short-ranged day fighter for the USAF and NATO, replacing planes like the F-5 and the aging F-104.

    The same intent was with the F-35. Except the F-35 has so many capabilities added on, is so complex, and so expensive, that the forces will be lucky to get the large numbers they want.  With the cancellation of the F-22 and the NATF never having gone anywhere, it's going to be the only game in town until the 2030+ timeframe when the F-X and F/A-XX programs start to go anywhere.

    Meanwhile, a lot of missions don't necessarily call for those capability sets, and the country is going bankrupt.  At the same time, a lot of our airframes are old.  Tankers need to be replaced badly in the Air Force.  A new bomber is also needed.  Old F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s are suffering from the effects of use well beyond their designed operational lives.  The F-35 is eating the Marine Corps' aircraft budget, it seems.

    The question remains: do you need a $90-150 million dollar supersonic stealth fighter to intercept unknown aircraft in US airspace or blow up insurgents in Toyota pickup trucks?

    Do you buy, then, turboprop attack planes that are very inexpensive to operate but are very limited in the missions they can perform?

    The answers, I believe, are no and no.  So here's what you do.

    First, the Air Force needs new fighters, and it needs new trainers to replace the ancient T-38s out there.  The USAF then goes in on a big buy of the KAI T-50 and FA-50 "Golden Eagle" supersonic fighter trainers:











    Now, you might be asking, "what can this do that the F-16s we already have can't?"  The answer is, not much.  It's smaller and lighter.  It's a lot closer to the spirit of the F-20 Tigershark and the original F-16A than the current Block 52/60 F-16Cs.  What it can do, however, is be had (in the combat configured F/A-50 version) for about $35,000,000.  That's fifteen million dollars cheaper than the best-ever price for an F/A-18E.  A larger buy, coupled with a T-50 trainer version purchase to replace the T-38, could reduce these costs even further.

    The trainers go right to Air Education and Training Command.  The fighter version (I think the Air Force should call it the F-24, personally) would go right to the Air National Guard, replacing the F-16s in service with them.  Newer F-16s would go to Air Force Reserve units that are partnered with active duty units transitioning to the F-35.  Money intended to be spent on F-15 and F-16 service life extensions can be repurposed.

    he F-24 is capable of doing a lot of what the Air Force needs done.  Being supersonic and nimble, it takes over almost all Air Sovereignty Alert missions.  Its radar isn't compatible with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, but it doesn't need to be.  The AIM-9X Sidewinder is a good missile and there are very few imaginable ASA missions where a shoot-down would be authorized without visual authorization.

    It's capable of carrying a wide variety of air-to-ground weapons, from Maverick missiles to JDAMs, iron bombs, and rockets.  It can do the strike mission in low-threat environments as well as the current crop of aircraft can.

    With this, the USAF's planned buy of 1700 F-35s is cut down by five hundred or so, and the F-24 picks up the slack.

    Unfortunately, this low-cost alternative can't take over the long-ranged Pacific Rim missions that the F-22 would excel at, but the F-35 is not going to be the best in that arena either.  Can't be helped.  We're broke.  But, even without the AMRAAM, it can hold its own in the air-to-air arena against a lot of the older fighters still floating around out there.  AIM-120 capability (and the radar to support it) could be added later as an upgrade if the need to do so becomes apparent.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 07:32:33 pm »
    Part two of the High/Low mix: the A-13 Tomahawk.

    Right now, the Marines are mortgaging their future on the F-35B, the most troublesome of the three variants.  It was originally supposed to have achieved IOC by 2012.  It is not now known when this plane will actually enter service.





    Additionally, the Navy made the Marines agree to buy a number of carrier-variant F-35Cs.



    It has better range than the B-model, and can carry more.  (I think technically the STOVL version should be the FV-35B, but we seem to have abandoned the numbering system lately, for marketing reasons.)

    Meanwhile, while the F-35 program struggles along, the Marines are working to keep ancient F/A-18A and AV-8B Harrier airframes operational.  They've purchased surplus Harriers from the British, even.

    So here's what we do.

    The Harriers are withdrawn from service except for those in training squadrons.  This will allow pilots to keep their STOVL skills fresh until the F-35B comes online.  An interim solution is, like the F-24 for the Air Force, based on a trainer.





    The T-45 Goshawk is based on the British Aerospace Hawk trainer.  Something like a thousand units of the Hawk have been built for clients all over the world in the previous decades, and they remain in production today.  Many countries are purchasing similar transsonic trainers, adapted as low-cost attack aircraft, for their air forces.  Similar aircraft include the YAK-130/M-346 and older birds like the Alpha Jet and the Czech L-39 Albatross.

    Now, these planes have to compete with refurbished surplus American F-16s on the market, but they're still inexpensive.  They're also considerably cheaper to maintain and operate than the F-16, and are a lot less likely to get a less-experienced pilot killed (the F-16 is not an easy aircraft to fly). 

    At any rate, BAE seems to be onto something.  They are producing a single-seat light attack version of the Hawk, the fully modernized Hawk 200.









    It can carry a variety of air-to-ground ordnance as is, and can carry Sidewinder missiles for self-defense.  The Hawk is very maneuverable, and is used by the RAF Red Arrows.



    The single seat version, in attack configuration, reminds me of nothing so much as a modernized A-4 Skyhawk.

    So in that spirit, the US fields a version of the Hawk intended primarily for the Marine Corps.  It's an up-to-date, single seat, navalized variant that becomes the A-13A Tomahawk.  It can't operate from assault ships, but otherwise replaces USMC Harriers in operational duty.  A couple hundred A-13As are built and purchased.  It serves as an inexpensive, reliable, easy-to-fly, cheap-to-maintain, easy-to-replace bomb truck/CAS bird for the Marines.  Its primarily designed to operate in permissive environments, but has an ECM suite and countermeasures just in case.  It's cheaper to operate after the enemy's air defense network is smashed, or for low-intensity conflicts or counterinsurgency missions where economy and loiter time are more important than speed and stealth.

    Getting in on the buy, the Air National Guard purchases a number of Tomahawks as well.  The rationale is, since they won't be getting many, if any, F-35s any time soon, it falls to the ANG to take on different mission sets other than just being a back up, part-time Air Force.  The ANG uses its F-24s and A-13s to take on the COIN/ground combatant support missions, CONUS air defense, and joint training with partner nations, and other missions that don't necessarily require the capabilities (and expense) of the F-22, F-35, or even the older F-16s that go to the USAF Reserve.

    So, the US has a three-tier combat capability in fighters.  The bottom tier is covered by the Tomahawk.  It's rugged, cheap to operate, and can move mud as well as anything else out there.  It's designed to support the grunt and harass the enemy.  The middle tear consists of new F-24As and older F-16s.  They cover the spectrum from low intensity to higher intensity.  The top tier is made up of the F-15E, the F-35, and the F-22.  The latter two, being stealthy, are especially for "first day of the war" missions.

    Had we bought more F-22s, the F-15s could be phased out faster, but oh well I guess.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #9 on: February 21, 2014, 11:39:19 pm »
    The B-3 I proposed earlier may have been stealthy in shape...just done on the cheap.  Radar cross section reduction not really intended to penetrate heavily defended airspace.  (Think of it as wearing camouflage; makes you harder to see but you're not invisible.)

    The closest things I could come up were various artworks of stealthy transport planes.









    As an aside, assuming we don't already have a stealth transport plane as a black project somewhere, we ought to work on one.  Nothing big.  There's no point in a stealth C-17.  But something C-130 sized with minimal signature that can slip across a border and let a Special Forces team HALO in.





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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #10 on: February 22, 2014, 03:07:34 pm »
    Here's a Navy one.  Sort of.

    Experience in the Gulf War taught western leaders that even though the Cold War was ostensibly over, the world was unstable.  Instead of massive, fixed military forces poised across Europe to defend against Soviet invasion, wars could start with little notice anywhere in the world.

    Gleaning from experience learned in the Falklands Campaign, British leaders realized that even in an era of defense cutbacks, the United Kingdom needed to be able to project power abroad.  After 9/11 and during the War on Terror, the British realized that a Fortress Britannia policy, with a military that can scarcely be deployed without the logistical support of the United States, wouldn't serve the nation's interests in the 21st century.  Public concern about the UK armed forces becoming a token, non-deploying Gendarmarie like so many of continental Europe's nations had become caused a number of previously unthinkable propositions to move forward.

    In order to fund much of this, the British Army took most of the hit.  The active duty force was shrunk, with three-quarters of its strength being found in Reserve units modeled after the US National Guard. The Royal Navy, Royal Marines, and Royal Air Force received the brunt of the new equipment and organization. 

    As part of a power projection strategy, the Royal Navy wanted to have a real aircraft carrier in its inventory again.  The pocket carriers it had been using for decades were dependent on the Harrier jump-jet.  This subsonic, 1970s-vintage aircraft was rapidly headed toward obsolescence, and even in the late 1990s it was believed that the technological challenges of the STOVL Joint Strike Fighter might cause serious delays.

    In lieu of trying to build new carriers on their own, the United Kingdom worked out an agreement with the Clinton Administration and the United States Navy in January of 2000.  The Kitty Hawk-Class USS Constellation and USS America, as well as the the Forrestal-Class USS Independence, having been decommissioned by the US Navy, were essentially donated to the United Kingdom in lieu of being scrapped.


    USS Constellation


    USS Independence, mothballed


    USS America

    With these three big deck carriers being refurbished, the Royal Navy begins an exchange program with the US Navy in 2001, flying US Navy F/A-18s and some of their own Harriers off of US Navy ships.  Royal Navy crews train aboard US Navy ships, learning how to run a real aircraft carrier again.

    Meanwhile, a competition is held for a navalised strike fighter, as the Royal Navy had nothing compatible with a catapult & trap system.  Contenders were the much-delayed F-35C, the F/A-18E/F, and a navalised Eurofighter Typhoon, and the Rafale-M, which was already in service with the French.

    Given that the Typhoon was entering active squadron service with the RAF, the Typhoon won the competition and entered production.  After several design issues, it began to enter squadron service in 2009.











    The Royal Navy was able to build a starter carrier force by purchasing aircraft and systems that the US Navy was decommissioning, such as the S-3 Viking.



    The former Constellation, now christened the HMS Leviathan, began its shakedown cruise in 2011, having spent more than a decade being refitted and upgraded. In UK service it is expected to serve until the 2045.
    « Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 03:22:19 pm by Nightcrawler »
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #11 on: February 22, 2014, 03:54:21 pm »
    Here's a Navy one.  Sort of.

    Experience in the Gulf War taught western leaders that even though the Cold War was ostensibly over, the world was unstable.  Instead of massive, fixed military forces poised across Europe to defend against Soviet invasion, wars could start with little notice anywhere in the world.

    Gleaning from experience learned in the Falklands Campaign, British leaders realized that even in an era of defense cutbacks, the United Kingdom needed to be able to project power abroad.  After 9/11 and during the War on Terror, the British realized that a Fortress Britannia policy, with a military that can scarcely be deployed without the logistical support of the United States, wouldn't serve the nation's interests in the 21st century.  Public concern about the UK armed forces becoming a token, non-deploying Gendarmarie like so many of continental Europe's nations had become caused a number of previously unthinkable propositions to move forward.

    In order to fund much of this, the British Army took most of the hit.  The active duty force was shrunk, with three-quarters of its strength being found in Reserve units modeled after the US National Guard. The Royal Navy, Royal Marines, and Royal Air Force received the brunt of the new equipment and organization. 

    As part of a power projection strategy, the Royal Navy wanted to have a real aircraft carrier in its inventory again.  The pocket carriers it had been using for decades were dependent on the Harrier jump-jet.  This subsonic, 1970s-vintage aircraft was rapidly headed toward obsolescence, and even in the late 1990s it was believed that the technological challenges of the STOVL Joint Strike Fighter might cause serious delays.

    In lieu of trying to build new carriers on their own, the United Kingdom worked out an agreement with the Clinton Administration and the United States Navy in January of 2000.  The Kitty Hawk-Class USS Constellation and USS America, as well as the the Forrestal-Class USS Independence, having been decommissioned by the US Navy, were essentially donated to the United Kingdom in lieu of being scrapped.


    USS Constellation


    USS Independence, mothballed


    USS America

    With these three big deck carriers being refurbished, the Royal Navy begins an exchange program with the US Navy in 2001, flying US Navy F/A-18s and some of their own Harriers off of US Navy ships.  Royal Navy crews train aboard US Navy ships, learning how to run a real aircraft carrier again.

    Meanwhile, a competition is held for a navalised strike fighter, as the Royal Navy had nothing compatible with a catapult & trap system.  Contenders were the much-delayed F-35C, the F/A-18E/F, and a navalised Eurofighter Typhoon, and the Rafale-M, which was already in service with the French.

    Given that the Typhoon was entering active squadron service with the RAF, the Typhoon won the competition and entered production.  After several design issues, it began to enter squadron service in 2009.











    The Royal Navy was able to build a starter carrier force by purchasing aircraft and systems that the US Navy was decommissioning, such as the S-3 Viking.



    The former Constellation, now christened the HMS Leviathan, began its shakedown cruise in 2011, having spent more than a decade being refitted and upgraded. In UK service it is expected to serve until the 2045.

    Ah, if only.
    Comparing this to the coastal defence force (that can't defend the coast without 24 hours warning first) that we've got makes me want to  :'(
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 04:35:23 pm »
    Do we have to go with things that would be cool?
    Because I can think of something for the near future that wouldn't be pretty...

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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 10:52:01 pm »
    I know it is a costly, outdated munition delivery system, but for sheer "OMG we are screwed now" reactions when it comes within range---I think we should have kept one of these based on each coast
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 10:02:28 am »
    In that vein, how about some alternative military present:  recognizing the need for highly survivable platforms to operate in the face of hostile Anti-Access / Area-Denial (A2AD) systems, the US Navy announced that at least 2, and possibly up to 4, Iowa-class battleships would be removed from mothballs, to be completely stripped and rebuilt.

    The ships will be stripped to the hull and superstructure, including the replacement of the oil-fired steam turbines with nuclear reactors.  Three of the twin 5" turrets on each side, along with the Harpoon-missile launchers, will be replaced with a vertical launch missile system, as well as rapid-slewing turrets armed with a 155mm and 57mm rapid-fire guns, one of each per side, to deal with close-in fast moving enemy ships.  The ships will also be equipped with the latest bloc Aegis radar.

    Finally, and potentially most disturbing to battleship purists, the 9 16" guns will be replaced by electromagnetic rail guns.  These 16" rail guns, currently in the final developmental stages, will be able to launch 1000 lb smart (GPS or laser homing) projectiles up to 200 miles.

    Navy spokesmen answered "No comment" when asked if the upgraded dreadnaughts would be equipped with Wave Motion guns.  :coffee
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #15 on: February 24, 2014, 01:02:57 pm »
    Hmmm....a 21st century battleship?  Interesting.  Especially as integrated air defenses and long-ranged missiles might make combatant commanders hesitant to push their carrier battle groups too close to enemy territory, and given that the Super Hornet isn't an especially long-legged bird to begin with.  Such a ship could, theoretically, operate independently or in support of a battle group.  It's big enough to have hangar space for a couple of UCAVs, and could probably house the first generation of laser weapons as they come online.

    I wonder if it'd be cheaper to just build it from scratch.  I think it'd be a better investment for the Navy than the LCS. (I.E., the Navy spends a bazillion dollars to make a fancy new ship to do a mission better suited to the Coast Guard in the first place.)
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #16 on: February 24, 2014, 05:03:16 pm »
    A nuke powered BB would be free from fleet tankers
     the improvements in armor, hull design and manuvering systems since they were originally launched would be phenomenal.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 05:07:21 pm »
    My thinking with using the old hulls is that they were built to to toe-to-toe with other battleships, and take hits from 2000 lb armor piercing shells and still be able to fight.

    I have a feeling that the current-generation of sea-skimming missiles would just put dents in the armor belt.

    Plus, you might have to modernize the old ships simply because, what factories/steel mills are still turning out battleship armor?
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 05:49:46 pm »
    Here's a whimsical scenario:

    The Joint Strike Fighter program is cancelled in December of 2001 as the nation spins up for war.   The Navy is ready, and simply continues purchasing the Super Hornet.  The Air Force is left scrambling, though.  Various defense contractors put in bids for upgrades and redesigns of existing fighters.  The F-15E and F-16 are still in production, and both have proven combat records.  F-22 production is accelerated, as the Air Force is suddenly afraid that might be canceled too, and they don't want to be stuck with less than two hundred tail numbers.  The F-22 achieves IOC with the 1st Fighter Wing in 2003.

    Taking up the slack, the USAF begins to acquire upgraded 4th Generation fighters.  Both the F-16 and the F-15 were heavily modified over the years as test beds, and a lot of that knowledge and experience is applied.

    The F-16E enters production for the Air Force, replacing many of its older Block 30/32 F-16Cs.  It is the more conservative of the F-16 upgrade proposals, lacking the F-22 delta wing and thrust vectoring nozzles that were under consideration.



    The Air Force didn't want to take the risk of the program getting delayed and/or canceled like the JSF had, so they pushed for internal upgrades and less modification to the airframe.  The result was the Block 60 F-16E:



    The first operational squadron of F-16Es deploys to Balad Air Base, Iraq, in 2007.



    To bridge the gap until the 2025 timeframe, when the F-X next generation air combat system is expected to be developed, the USAF and Lockheed Martin explore options for a future spiral development of the F-16 airframe, incorporating features previously considered risky, like a lower radar cross section delta wing, diverterless intake, etc.

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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 06:38:57 pm »
    Part 2: The F-15.

    The F-15C was originally intended to be replaced by the F-22A.  While in this scenario the USAF got 381 F-22s, the F-22 is not a great replacement for the F-15E Strike Eagle.

    Given how critical the F-15E's capabilities are, the USAF didn't want to phase them out.  But since the F-16Es were coming online, it was decided to be more ambitious with the new F-15.



    The Boeing "Silent Eagle", officially dubbed the F-15F, flies for the first time in 2009.  It is a more radical redesign of the F-15 compared to the more conservative Lockheed effort, very much akin to the evolution of the F/A-18 into the Super Hornet.  While carrying a payload internally its radar cross-section is greatly reduced.  Coupled with advanced ECM and terrain masking, the new F-15s can be maddeningly difficult for even modern air defenses to counter.





    It's even more ambitious and advanced than the F-15K SLAM Eagle being developed for South Korea.  It takes longer to get into service, with the first tail numbers reaching squadrons in 2013.

    Additionally, to increase the aircraft's odds of survival in an age of so-called "double-digit" SAM systems, the USAF contracts Boeing to produce an electronic warfare variant of the new F-15.  The USAF had been without a dedicated electronic attack fighter since the retirement of the EF-111 in 1998.

    The resulting jet is the EF-15G Jamming Bird.  Outwardly it is very similar in appearance to the F-15F, except that several bulbous housings protrude from its airframe, and large centerline pod housing electronics.

    Both versions are compatible with Boeing's low-observable external weapons pods. Israel becomes the first export customer of the new F-15, having been barred access to the F-22 due to security concerns. Japan and Saudi Arabia both express interest.

    Meanwhile, the F-15K Slam Eagle does well in the export market.  It's not an inexpensive fighter, but it's cheaper than the F-15F and is fully modernized.  The F-15 airframe is a large, high-altitude, high performance, long-ranged design well suited to the needs of many US allies (it has significant range advantages of over competing designs such as the F-16, F/A-18, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Rafale).



    In addition to South Korea, Australia opts for a purchase of F-15Ks, seeking a high/low mix with their Super Hornet fleet.  The F-15 is a better match for the modernized Sukhois proliferating throughout the Asia/Pacific region, and it has longer range for over water missions.

    The next export customer is Canada.  While a purchase of 100 CF-39 Griffins makes up the bulk of the RCAF's combat capability, it was felt that a larger, twin-engined, longer-ranged aircraft would be preferable for both long ranged strike and for patrolling Canada's vast northern wilderness.  The CF-15 Aigle fills that requirement well.  The RCAF receives 42 of these aircraft, giving it a capable fighter fleet for the 21st century.







    « Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:56:15 pm by Nightcrawler »
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 09:01:28 pm »
    Part 3: A/F-117X

    With the cancellation of the JSF, the Navy and Air Force were looking at a shortage of low-observable airframes.  F-22 production was coming along slowly, and while that aircraft was capable of ground attack it wasn't optimized for it.  Since the cancellation of the A-12, the Navy had no stealth airframes in the works. 

    The USAF still had the original run of F-117 Nighthawk stealth attack aircraft, but experience in Bosnia had showed the USAF that this design had its flaws (namely in that its only defense was stealth; it was subsonic, had no radar, and aside from a pair of precision guided bombs was unarmed).

    Lockheed was ready.  It dusted off mid-90s plans for the A/F-117X, an evolutionary upgrade to the F-117 Nighthawk.  This aircraft was more capable, could carry air-to-air weapons for self-defense, and was carrier capable.  The Navy was suddenly interested in that it would have an interim low-observable attack aircraft until the stealthy UCAVs could come online in the 2015-2020 timeline.







    The A/F-117X offered a significant step up in capability over the early-80s vintage F-117, and was improved significantly with experience learned from the early JSF and the F-22 programs.  It was stealthier than its predecessor but was multi-mission capable.  It could carry a variety of air to air and air-to-ground ordnance.





    The A/F-117 effort was the result of a crash program by Lockheed to meet the requirements of the USAF and USN.  They kept the project as in-house as possible to reduce bureaucratic delays.

    The prototypes flew for the first time in 2003.  They began limited production in 2006.  Production of about 100 for the USAF and 180 for the US Navy is expected to continue into FY15.  The A/F-117X began its first deployment aboard the USS Ronald Reagan in 2008.  They were used in combat for the first time in 2011, over Libya, during Operation Oddessy Dawn.





    The A/F-117X is expected to serve with the USAF and US Navy until as late as 2035, depending on how quickly a replacement system (most likely the QA-14 UCAS) can be made fully operational.
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    Re: Alternative Military History!
    « Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 07:36:14 am »
    In modern times. there are various kinds of secure devices to provide safe environment for people. For example the security camera can be used to monitor suspicious person come and go in the office or people's own home. Besides the minelab metal detector also can be used to set up a security system to ensure our safety in the daily life.

    Wow.  In modern times, spammers can try to peddle their crap on random web boards, too.  :rotfl
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