Author Topic: "Texas Ag Commissioner Approves Pesticide Targeting Wild Pigs" (Read 18119 times)

MTK20 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2017, 05:11:52 pm »

Quote from: Roper1911 on March 04, 2017, 04:43:56 pm

It's a hard and dirty job. but I volunteer to be a helicopter hog hunter. I'll bring my FAL and AR. I'll even pay for the ammo.
just get me in a chopper.

I think being a heli hog gunner with an FAL would be one of my dreams come true.

I also wouldn't mind one of these:

https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-m249s/

WeTheArmed.com

Ken Brock · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2017, 06:07:04 pm »

That helicopter gunning looks like more fun than eating boogers

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2017, 08:15:40 pm »

Or what they can do is remove restrictions from those that want to hunt hogs... and special exceptions for when within 200 yards of a structure.

MTK20 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2017, 08:34:00 pm »

We had our AC taken out by the damn things on our little bit of land out in the sticks. If one of the neighbours would've shot it 10 feet from the house, I wouldn't have minded.

Never had a coyote or a prairie dog damage a freaking building structure before

. Besides, both of those creatures are native to here.

coelacanth · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2017, 10:06:56 pm »

Yup. Feral hogs are terribly destructive. There were some pretty good sized porkers in that helicopter video but when I lived in Alabama it wasn't uncommon to see a couple of hogs that would go 300 pounds or more apiece in the back of a truck after a week-end hunt. That was in the 1970's. They would tear down fences and root up acres of vegetable garden overnight. A local mom and pop truck patch that ran a roadside stand eventually went out of business because they couldn't overcome the ongoing damage.

MTK20 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2017, 10:35:31 pm »

Quote from: coelacanth on March 04, 2017, 10:06:56 pm

Yup. Feral hogs are terribly destructive. There were some pretty good sized porkers in that helicopter video but when I lived in Alabama it wasn't uncommon to see a couple of hogs that would go 300 pounds or more apiece in the back of a truck after a week-end hunt. That was in the 1970's. They would tear down fences and root up acres of vegetable garden overnight. A local mom and pop truck patch that ran a roadside stand eventually went out of business because they couldn't overcome the ongoing damage.

First off, I never knew you lived in Alabama before.

Second, stuff like that makes my blood boil. I think I might have to take a drive soon and check on our back 40. Might have to take Kaso with me, I understand he has always wanted to shoot Texas hogs before

.

I'm not sure what it is about the hogs that way, but they are incredibly sneaky. They really don't present themselves for a good shot often. The land is also far enough away that I can't bait them everyday and "train" them into a routine.

Roper1911 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2017, 10:49:16 pm »

I need to get a license and ask around about a hunting spot. folks around here got a bit militant when they moved in locally. my neighbors harvested over 40 hogs one year.
they had nearly 2 tons of meat if processed, they buried or burned 90%. still filled up 4 big deep freezers with meat.

MTK20 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 04, 2017, 11:05:59 pm »

Quote from: Roper1911 on March 04, 2017, 10:49:16 pm

I need to get a license and ask around about a hunting spot. folks around here got a bit militant when they moved in locally. my neighbors harvested over 40 hogs one year.
they had nearly 2 tons of meat if processed, they buried or burned 90%. still filled up 4 big deep freezers with meat.

40 in a year is impressive! I wish I could do that on my property.

How about 468 hogs in 6 hours?

coelacanth · « **Reply #33 on:** March 04, 2017, 11:18:39 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on March 04, 2017, 10:35:31 pm

First off, I never knew you lived in Alabama before.

Second, stuff like that makes my blood boil. I think I might have to take a drive soon and check on our back 40. Might have to take Kaso with me, I understand he has always wanted to shoot Texas hogs before .

I'm not sure what it is about the hogs that way, but they are incredibly sneaky. They really don't present themselves for a good shot often. The land is also far enough away that I can't bait them everyday and "train" them into a routine.

Yup. Was in northeast Alabama ( Anniston, Oxford, J'ville area ) before I relocated to Arizona. Nice place.

A lot more fishing opportunities than my current situation, which suited me fine but I have a lot more family here than there so off I went to the wild, wild west.

Actually, by the time I got here it was more like the weird, weird west but there are some who might opine that it was OK before I got here.

Hogs are actually pretty intelligent as game animals go. Smart, wary and equipped with keen hearing and smell makes them a tough animal to bag unless you study them for years in a particular area.

The story goes that the ones in Alabama are descendants of domesticated swine left to their own devices during the great depression of the 1930's. There were a lot of sharecroppers and small family farms in that area and a lot of those boys went off to war during WWI because there wasn't much money to be made in that area at the time. Some were killed in the war and some found a better life elsewhere and never returned. There was a fair amount of logging for pulpwood in the area as it is in the southern terminus of the Appalachian mountain chain but it was never at the level of areas further south and east. There were steel mill jobs in Birmingham but it might as well have been in California for poor, hard scrabble country boys who could barely afford shoes, much less money for travel.

At any rate, a lot of northeast Alabama was federally owned property with Fort McClellan, the Bynum Ordinance Depot and the Pelham Range ( artillery and aerial bombing) occupying hundreds of square miles between them as well as the Sylacauga National Forest. After the stock market crash of 1929 most of the pulpwood mills closed down and local employment was at rock bottom. The young people left to find work elsewhere or went on the dole just to survive. Many of the old folks who owned or farmed the small holdings began to die off and a lot of the livestock was simply set loose to fend for themselves rather than letting them starve to death in a fenced enclosure. That included a lot of hogs of various breeds. Long story short - they thrived and grew large and numerous. So much so that even in the 1970's they had begun to present a significant problem.

They have been hunted for generations and have grown wary - and mean. A big old boar can rip through a pack of hounds like tissue paper if he gets to pick his ground.

Plebian · « **Reply #34 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:50:39 am »

r-strategist specie are always a real pain to control.

The usual strategies of increased hunting, bounties and allowing more methods of harvest just tend to be ineffective. Poison and intensive trapping tends to be the go to methods of control for r-selected species.

Hogs in their native habitats tend to follow the boom and bust cycles of any r-selected species, but they do so much damage to human interests that you just cannot allow the boom cycle to go bust.

I highly doubt any direct harvest method will be effective in controlling the overall populations. There is just not enough time and people to kill them off fast enough. Although that would for sure be the most fun control method.

I think teaching effective trapping to landowners might be an effective strategy for Texas. It works fairly well here in OK and many other states. The corral type traps that let you eliminate 10-50 hogs at one hit tend to be effective at controlling populations. The biggest downside to trapping tends to be animals learning the trap setups. The instant you get any individuals or groups that learn how to escape the traps. They rapidly become the new general population.

MTK20 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 05, 2017, 10:47:09 am »

Quote from: Plebian on March 05, 2017, 09:50:39 am

r-strategist specie are always a real pain to control.

The usual strategies of increased hunting, bounties and allowing more methods of harvest just tend to be ineffective. Poison and intensive trapping tends to be the go to methods of control for r-selected species.

Hogs in their native habitats tend to follow the boom and bust cycles of any r-selected species, but they do so much damage to human interests that you just cannot allow the boom cycle to go bust.

I highly doubt any direct harvest method will be effective in controlling the overall populations. There is just not enough time and people to kill them off fast enough. Although that would for sure be the most fun control method.

I think teaching effective trapping to landowners might be an effective strategy for Texas. It works fairly well here in OK and many other states. The corral type traps that let you eliminate 10-50 hogs at one hit tend to be effective at controlling populations. The biggest downside to trapping tends to be animals learning the trap setups. The instant you get any individuals or groups that learn how to escape the traps. They rapidly become the new general population.

Interesting

.

So you say that populations like this have cycles? Boom and bust? What naturally makes them taper off or have a "dry" period? I would have just guessed that, judging from the last several years, the population can only and will only go up from here.

The family has been talking about hog control for our land and I was curious, is there a specific well known make/model of trap that y'all would recommend? I'd feel like a real son of a b____ for shooting trapped vermin, but our land looks like hell. I feel that all of the state of Texas is getting desperate to control these pests.

Plebian · « **Reply #36 on:** March 05, 2017, 12:11:30 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on March 05, 2017, 10:47:09 am

Interesting .

So you say that populations like this have cycles? Boom and bust? What naturally makes them taper off or have a "dry" period? I would have just guessed that, judging from the last several years, the population can only and will only go up from here.

The family has been talking about hog control for our land and I was curious, is there a specific well known make/model of trap that y'all would recommend? I'd feel like a real son of a b____ for shooting trapped vermin, but our land looks like hell. I feel that all of the state of Texas is getting desperate to control these pests.

All boom and bust cycle species go bust because of resource depletion. They eat up all the food OR destroy the environment enough to stop the food source they were exploiting. Disease can also be a cause of population bust, BUT that particular cause is rarely cyclic.

The obvious issue is humans cannot allow the land to be so destroyed it no longer presents enough resources for the hogs to feed.

Best and easiest trap is the corral style. You gotta make it yourself, but it is fairly easy to do. Texas A&M has a nice PDF on the the process.

http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/files/2013/05/L-5524-Corral-Traps-for-Feral-Hogs.pdf

I have personally used and seen in use many of these corral type traps, and they are really effective at removing the whole group causing issues.

Some advice if you are gonna use them. IF you think it looks strong enough to hold them, go twice that strong. Setup the corral with NO GATE for awhile and just bait the inside. Get them used to going in and out and smelling your scent. Then install the gate when ready to catch them. It is possible to load the wild hogs into a stock trailer from a corral type trap, BUT it is much easier to just plug all the bastards at the site.

Also realize the instant you start shooting or boar spearing the critters. They are gonna go nuts. They can and will jump off of each other to clear the fence. IF they do it can get really interesting for all involved in the process. Some hogs take you trying to kill them very personally and wish to return the favor.

Kaso · « **Reply #37 on:** March 05, 2017, 02:08:47 pm »

Quote from: Plebian on March 05, 2017, 12:11:30 pm

Also realize the instant you start shooting or boar spearing the critters. They are gonna go nuts. They can and will jump off of each other to clear the fence. IF they do it can get really interesting for all involved in the process. Some hogs take you trying to kill them very personally and wish to return the favor.

Sounds like you really want to use a suppressed bolt gun for the killing, to take the edge off of the hysteria. And then have a friend standing by with an AK or FAL. Just in case.

A friend (or six) is also useful for when it comes time to dress them out. $:-\$

MTK20 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 05, 2017, 02:19:27 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on March 05, 2017, 02:08:47 pm

Sounds like you really want to use a suppressed bolt gun for the killing, to take the edge off of the hysteria. And then have a friend standing by with an AK or FAL. Just in case.

A friend (or six) is also useful for when it comes time to dress them out. $:-\$

Just now noticed your change in personal text

.

I'm not sure I'd want to eat them. We had a friend who insisted that the piglets under 50lbs were fine to eat, but that wasn't a very good omelette.

Quote from: Plebian on March 05, 2017, 12:11:30 pm

All boom and bust cycle species go bust because of resource depletion. They eat up all the food OR destroy the environment enough to stop the food source they were exploiting. Disease can also be a cause of population bust, BUT that particular cause is rarely cyclic.

The obvious issue is humans cannot allow the land to be so destroyed it no longer presents enough resources for the hogs to feed.

Best and easiest trap is the corral style. You gotta make it yourself, but it is fairly easy to do. Texas A&M has a nice PDF on the the process.

http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/files/2013/05/L-5524-Corral-Traps-for-Feral-Hogs.pdf

I have personally used and seen in use many of these corral type traps, and they are really effective at removing the whole group causing issues.

Some advice if you are gonna use them. IF you think it looks strong enough to hold them, go twice that strong. Setup the corral with NO GATE for awhile and just bait the inside. Get them used to going in and out and smelling your scent. Then install the gate when ready to catch them. It is possible to load the wild hogs into a stock trailer from a corral type trap, BUT it is much easier to just plug all the bastards at the site.

Also realize the instant you start shooting or boar spearing the critters. They are gonna go nuts. They can and will jump off of each other to clear the fence. IF they do it can get really interesting for all involved in the process. Some hogs take you trying to kill them very personally and wish to return the favor.

Thanks for the PDF instructions! I'll be forwarding it to my step dad when I get the chance. He is the handy one in the family, while my skill set typically ends at shooting stuff.

coelacanth · « **Reply #39 on:** March 05, 2017, 04:21:20 pm »

Yeah, human agriculture practices have pretty much blown up the natural boom/bust cycle. Irrigation and rotational planting keep most agricultural areas producing at least some food stock pretty much year round and livestock food is like leaving the door open to the smorgasbord.

I've seen a salt block put out for cattle get rolled all over a pasture field by hogs until it was broken up into pieces that wouldn't roll anymore. Apparently they actually consumed a fair amount of the stuff because that particular block had a higher percentage of trace minerals in it. I didn't even know hogs would need salt based on their diet but apparently this stuff was right up their alley.

Kaso · « **Reply #40 on:** March 05, 2017, 05:08:21 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on March 05, 2017, 02:19:27 pm

Just now noticed your change in personal text .

I'm not sure I'd want to eat them. We had a friend who insisted that the piglets under 50lbs were fine to eat, but that wasn't a very good omelette.

Yeah, that has been up for most of a month.

If not eat them, then what? Leave them to rot? Bury them? Certainly, the little ones are the best eating... Just like domesticated hogs. Still, the grown sows should be perfectly edible, even if just made into whole-hog sausage. Boars... Yeah, maybe I'd pass on them, but the local food pantry might be happy to take a mess of ground pork made from the boars. That would be worth looking into.

MTK20 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 05, 2017, 05:20:23 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on March 05, 2017, 05:08:21 pm

Yeah, that has been up for most of a month.

If not eat them, then what? Leave them to rot? Bury them? Certainly, the little ones are the best eating... Just like domesticated hogs. Still, the grown sows should be perfectly edible, even if just made into whole-hog sausage. Boars... Yeah, maybe I'd pass on them, but the local food pantry might be happy to take a mess of ground pork made from the boars. That would be worth looking into.

I agree, if I can see some good come from it, then I will. I cannot stand waste and by technicality, they should be considered food. Who knows? Maybe our friend sucks at harvesting game? That's not entirely out of the question. He could've processed it wrong. After I ate that one, I never touched the stuff again.

Plebian · « **Reply #42 on:** March 05, 2017, 05:35:26 pm »

You cannot donate wild hog to food banks in most areas. Hogs are technically not wild game so still has to be usda approved like all pork to be donated.

Kaso · « **Reply #43 on:** March 05, 2017, 05:49:39 pm »

That is pretty dumb, if you ask me.

coelacanth · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2017, 06:08:43 pm »

If they belong to nobody, are running wild and free and you have to get a hunting license to go after them what, exactly, is the difference?

Kaso · « **Reply #45 on:** March 05, 2017, 06:16:52 pm »

Quote from: coelacanth on March 05, 2017, 06:08:43 pm

If they belong to nobody, are running wild and free and you have to get a hunting license to go after them what, exactly, is the difference?

Well for one, 'game animals' are regulated by the states' DWNR. They establish seasons, track population, and set bag limits.

Hogs are still wild animals, but they are as much 'game animals' as coyotes in most states are - few rules, fewer restrictions, and hunters are encouraged to kill as many as they can.

I still don't see what that difference should mean to the laws regarding donations to a food pantry.

MTK20 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 05, 2017, 06:24:11 pm »

I agree with you, Kaso. If it's edible and healthful, no one in need should have to starve because a type of food doesn't meet some paper pushing bureaucrats check off box.

Kaso · « **Reply #47 on:** March 05, 2017, 07:19:00 pm »

Now to bring this thread back to the OP, I am in favor of poison... IF... the poison is safe to humans in lower doses, and is not going to kill carion animals that scavenge the poisoned hog carcasses. The most important factor to me is human safety. If a hog eats the poison and either survives, or is going to die but has not yet done so... If that hog is killed by a human and dressed out, the poison needs to be such that no one is going to get sick or die from eating the pork.

If that can be done, home run. As it is now, with the poison referenced in the OP, I have to remain 100% opposed to the plan.

MTK20 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 05, 2017, 07:55:59 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on March 05, 2017, 07:19:00 pm

Now to bring this thread back to the OP, I am in favor of poison... IF... the poison is safe to humans in lower doses, and is not going to kill carion animals that scavenge the poisoned hog carcasses. The most important factor to me is human safety. If a hog eats the poison and either survives, or is going to die but has not yet done so... If that hog is killed by a human and dressed out, the poison needs to be such that no one is going to get sick or die from eating the pork.

If that can be done, home run. As it is now, with the poison referenced in the OP, I have to remain 100% opposed to the plan.

That was my joke earlier, I give warfarin in the hospital. You say that you don't want it to hurt humans in low doses, hell, it does better than that, in the right doses it helps prevent fatal DVT's in humans. I'm hesitant to see what it'll do to the environment, but now we are getting out of my area of knowledge, but I know drugs and I know humans. I was surprised to hear that Warfarin/coumadin even had that effect on hogs. It's funny, we use nicotine which is a severe vasoconstrictor and coumadin which is a blood thinner for pest control

.

ETA: I wish they had the other stuff they are using in the pesticide listed. Me thinks the other additives are going to be where all the really bad stuff is.

Kaso · « **Reply #49 on:** March 05, 2017, 08:11:49 pm »

Most anything can be fatal in a high enough dose. That is where it gets sticky. Some species react more severely to a certain substance than others, but my money is on anything strong enough to kill a hog will be strong enough to kill a person as well.